From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 08 Nov 1993, part 1
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner)
Subject: Re: Dwarfish Infravision.
Message-ID: <9311060919.AA25740@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 6 Nov 93 11:19:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2219
Date: Fri, 5 Nov 93 19:05:17 GMT
From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner )
Message-Id: <9311051905.AA08283@raesp-farn.mod.uk>
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM
Re: Dwarfish Infravision.
Sandy's idea of infravison being organically located in the skin - yeurrchh.
All those dwarfs, running around naked ? (except for the beard, of course).
Though that means if they wear armour they loose it, so necessitating light.
Which makes adventuring down a dwarf hole a lot easier (apart from the low
ceilings). You could have infravision being as per the 'pit viper's;
a pair of pits (proto-eyes) sensitive to thermal radiation, which also gives
you the benefit of directional infra-vision. Perhaps the dwarf's nostrils
double as these pits ? ("Those dwarfs, always looking down their noses at us
..."). You need never fear a dwarf with a head-cold again.
re: female Storm-bull worshippers - An analogy with Bikers. perhaps ?
Loved the stuff on Darktongue from Paul - add to it they're great singers.
Knock the spots of most humans. Imagine the suprise when this hulking smelly
toll opens it's mouth, and a beautiful clear soprano emerging.
I can see it now - the massed ranks of the Zorak Zoran Evangelical choir...
Re: Sam's Ducks.
WE've got a lake as well with ducks on it, yea, even beavers (who made the
lake !). And do the party hate the ducks ? Do Uroxi get angry ? For six years these ducks have been sheltering inside a 'cursed valley' away from human
oppression and general nastiness towards ducks. How would *you* behave if
a group of humans started messing aroung in _YOUR_ cursed valley ? Okay, the
humans were better at threatening, but you aren't going to love your oppressors
for a long, long time. And their time has come. The stupid human settlers
are running out of food for the winter, so the ducks can sit back and watch with
pleasure. 'Any food ? No, the mice ate it all ! '.
I love ducks. A creature *that* cynical, *that* depressed, *that* obnoxious is
a boon to every fun-loving referee the world over.
Geoff. 'A duck a day makes the party go grey.'
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Re: scenarios vs background & language
Message-ID: <199311061713.AA02532@radiomail.net>
Date: 6 Nov 93 17:13:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2220
>From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
>I agree 100%. Background is all very nice, but it belongs in a sourcebook.
>Scenarios should have the bare minimum background required to run them, and
>otherwise should concentrate on plot and characters. The setting should be
>flexible (dare I say generic?). All my Humble Opinion, of course.
I have no complaint about having scenarios in a product -- they can be a
perfect example of the advice "don't tell them, show them." Rather than
just hear about the River of Cradles, they can travel its length. My
complaint is that I can't show my players the background if they all have
to create new characters.
IMHO, having all scenarios designed only for outsiders would be better than
what we have now, because then the sense of wonder and oddity would be
exploited.
>Combined scenario/sourcebooks seem to be the trend. Are they cheaper to
>produce? Are they what the punters want to buy? There must be some reason,
>I guess. For me they make hassle: I have to re-work chunks of the scenarios
>to fit my campaign (or re-work chunks of my campaign); and when I *do* want
>to find some tidbit of background info it's a pain to have to thumb through
>scenarios. Organised, indexed, sourcebooks would be so much more useful.
Yes, an index would be nice. (By the way, this was a very nice feature of
RQ Adventures Fanzine #1.)
>From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>The language problem you mentioned limit the visitors scenarios to
>dungeon-style roleplaying - a problem I've recently encountered with my
>traveller campaign. And getting visitors involved without getting down
>on them heavily can be the most tricky part of such scenarios.
Um yes. That could be a problem with the outsider approach. (Of course,
inability to talk to people has gotten my players into lots of rousing
violence.) I probably play a bit loose with language, once there's 10% or
so of common language, I figure (with enough time) most of the message will
get through. I also make heavy use of Tradetalk as a gaming convenience,
ignoring the very reasonable discussions in the Digest about its pidgin
nature. And I give language checks for spending time in the company of
native speakers.
---------------------
From: graeme.lindsell@anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Replies, scripts, reality amd slavery
Message-ID: <9311070233.AA06999@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 7 Nov 93 18:33:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2221
Ken Rolston writes:
>The boxed RQ3 edition is being replaced by a paperback with the same
>contents, but cheaper, so you won't be able to get the old boxed edition. I
And the questions rain down on Ken:
This sounds like a good move, since the price of the boxed set
must have hurt sales. Is this product plus a RQ3 Rules Companion
intended to replace the RQ4 project?
Does it include the material in the Glorantha Book in the Deluxe
Set? I have the GDW hardbound set, which doesn't include that section.
Are there any plans to replace the other RQ3 products with a paperback
version: I would buy the Gods of Glorantha and Glorantha: Genertela
books immediately if they were re-issued in a somewhat more durable
form.
johnjmedway writes:
>Why are we still wishing for this?
>1. Stafford doesn't seem interested in Chaosium doing it again.
>2. Avalon Hill and Ken have been doing very well, lately, if a bit slow.
I can have few complaints about Ken's work, but I can't believe Chaosium
would show less interest in Runequest than Avalon Hill has. To me the
basic difference is this: Chaosium produces successful role-playing games;
Avalon Hill doesn't.
- Sam's book reviews are very welcome!
Geoff Gunner writes:
>And if your Uroxi
>is up agains enemies who *repeatedly* D.I. away from trouble then he/she's up
>against some _MEAN_ enemies ! I mean, are they all Rune Lords or what ?
He's only managed to trample 3 enemies so far: we're rarely fighting
mounted. One of those cases was an initiate who DI'd, the others were
shamans (all broos). My GM allows a simple DI in this case:
"[Insert Deity of Your Choice] Save Me!"
And he has an unusual amount of luck in rolling for it to work. Quite
a lot of our enemies DI away, basically because he allows them to DI
after they've been hit/killed.
Nick Brooke writes re the Pharoah:
>The Heortlanders call him. King of Kings? God-King? Who knows?
While Joerg suggests
>Pendragon, Ard Ri, Bretwalda, High King, Holy King, or local
>adaptions. The Shadow Plateau trolls might call him the Only New One.
Given his self-resurrecting habits, and continuing the Arthurian
theme, how about the Once and Future King?
Joerg re Tradetalk:
>I've wrestled with Nick about the uses of Trade Talk in Aeolian
>society, and we came to peace with something along this lines: If we
>allow an earth parallel, it would be basest vulgar latin, maybe one
>would be speaking in the trucations mediaeval monks used to make in
>their copies. The real written form would be old Seshnegi, parallel to
>high latin, which would be understood partly by someone able to read
>Seshnegi script.
Well since the West has a single standardised script (again, compared
with Latin) that means any literate person from the West should be able
to get by in written tradetalk.
Make me wonder: could the written form of tradetalk in central Genertelan
culture be older than we think? I'd guess that Arkat would have chosen to
spread his own written language over the lands he conquered. The God
Learners would then have spread it further. I'd guess that Western script
would be one of the scripts that a Lhankhor Mhy would be expected to learn
to be considered educated, along with New Pelorian and whatever local script
they use.
David Dunham writes:
>Here's an unrelated question: magical tattoos. If you tattoo a matrix in
>your skin, is it usable by anyone else? I gave a bad guy a matrix, and my
>players wanted to skin him once they'd defeated him. I decided that it
>probably wouldn't work, but the RQ4 answer was that it would
There are arguments for both views:
Yes: If the caster didn't put a limiting enchantment on the skin tatoos,
then yes they could be used.
No: when you destroy/break the item the enchantment is on, the enchantment
fails. You could rule that skinning is destruction
When we played SotBL one of the broos had skin tatoos (MP storage) on
his chest, and when he died our party Yelmalio decided to get them.
Problem was, he had no butchery or skinning skill, so he had to dismember
the broo and carry it's chest around with him, avoiding our Storm Bull
initiate since it was still chaotic. Eventually, (after skinning) he
gave it to Penliss as a gift.
Beware! Spoilers for Shadows on the Borderland below:
Sandy Petersen writes:
>I do think that doing Bad Things (rape, murder, torture) disrupts the
>world's order, and makes it easier for Chaos to break in. Let's not
Absolutely. Gaumata's vision is an example of a mundane evil deed
allowing chaos into the world. IMO show how weak the fabric of Gloranthan
reality is, that such an act can wreak such havoc.
Total Speculation Below:
I suspect that the fragile nature of Gloranthan reality is the reason
the power of Gloranthan magic is slowly disappearing over time. On
each of the Days the Magic Changed, we are told that the power of magic
has dropped, from the Great Compromise onwards. I think that Glorantha/
Arachnae Solara/The Invisible God/Time/[Insert omnipotent deity of
choice] must either reduce magic or be destroyed.
When you look at what heroquesting and the gods have done you
can see that most "good" heroquests like Arkat, the LBQ, Dormal
have been done to try and fix the damage done by "bad" heroquests
- Gbaji, The God Learners, the Unholy Trio summoning Chaos, the
Closing - and have never really fixed the original problem. In
the long term powerful magic will destroy reality, as nearly
happened with Chaos.
A test of this theory would be to find out what kind of mgic
is available to the Harshax-era peoples of the Fourth Age. Can
they still Heroquest, in the sense of enetering the Hero Plane,
or are they limited to the more mundane ones like the Short
LBQ detailed in KoS?
An observation on King of Sartar: one thing I find depressing
about Gregs fourth age stuff is that it makes clear that
nothing a third age PC does will amount to much: not because
we're told that Argrath did everything (that could be false)
but because it's obvious that Third Age civilization in central
Genertela is going to be destroyed, and that little remains.
Everything the players create will be undone.
Sandy again:
>The only advantage slavery
>offers in agriculture is that you can pay your workers very little.
>But you can do that anyway if you have serfs
I generally think of serfdom as slavery, though I know there are
a few differences.
>Kralorela
>might not have many slaves, but I'm sure there are a few, and I bet
>the culture's not opposed to it.
I agree there is no real opposition, but most cultures that have
lots of slaves practice agricultural slavery, since in premodern
cultures this is what occupies most of the workers. China was
notable for giving its peasants a fairly high social status,
as compared with Europe through most of it's history. If
Kralorela is the same then it is practically a free society,
though not for the same reasons. (I know, this kinda destroys
my previous argument about slavery in Genertela. Oh well)
There is of course the question of the status of women: one
[anthropological] book I read about China details a small town
just before WW2. The only slaves were female concubines,
and there were very few. Do you know how women are treated in
Kralorela?
Comparing with Genertela: it's noticable that agricultural slavery
isn't mentioned much in the Glorantha Book, except of course for
serfs in the West. I think it must be fairly widespread in the
Lunar Empire: look at how many slaves the Polas have.
Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Grazers & Spartans
Message-ID: <199311070603.AA09591@radiomail.net>
Date: 7 Nov 93 06:03:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2222
It was recently suggested that the Sun County folk are like Spartans in
Prax. While this is a good first-level approximation, it fails closer
examination (for example, Spartans weren't farmer-warriors, and are
described by Plutarch as having a sense of humor, even when they're the
butt of jokes. I also have a hard time picturing the Sun Domers as having
institutionalized homosexuality.).
From my limited reading on Sparta (a little knowledge is a dangerous
thing...), it seems that the Grazers may be better Spartans.
vendref = Helots (farming slaves)
Pure Horse Faction = reform movements that wanted to restore Lycurgus's
constitution
Getting and using money considered beneath the attention of Grazers =
Spartan currency was worthless iron bars; Spartans weren't allowed to
practice a craft
"vendref polluted some noble clans with gaudy gifts and heavy baubles" =
the very reason Lycurgus instituted a policy of austerity
Grazers are sought after as mercenaries = Spartans were too
Grazers don't build walls (until FHQ) = Spartans sneer at fortified walls
as for women
Feathered Horse Queen = no Spartan equivalent
While there are many and obvious differences between Grazers and Spartans,
the model of military-minded overlords who explicitly don't work is
probably a good one. (Tending herds obviously is work, but might be treated
more as a religious duty.)
This does _not_ mean that Grazers have a Spartan lifestyle (though the
nomadic life they pretend to has fewer material goods than if they were
settled overlords). The Scythians were noted for their love of wine, and
several Mongol leaders essentially drank themselves to death. The Grazer
sun god Yu-kargzant probably has a very different morality than Yelm.
Maybe the differences are too great for the comparison to be meaningful. I
was just taken by vendref=helot, both a class of farmers supporting a
ruling class in a lifestyle very different from its neighbors'.
Any comments from those who know more about Grazers and Spartans?
David Dunham * Software Designer * Pensee Corporation
Voice/Fax: 206-783-7404 * AppleLink: DDUNHAM * Internet: ddunham@radiomail.net
---------------------
From: sullivam@mlc.lib.mi.us (Mark Sullivan -- Michigan Library Consortium)
Subject: Esrolia reprise and other comments.
Message-ID:
Date: 7 Nov 93 08:25:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2223
Hello again, some comments on recent stuff.
Re: Esrolia/Esrolite etc.
Jorerg Baumgartner -
I liked your idea on the Esrolian army.
It reminded me off my interpretation of Esrolians, which I almost hate to
bring up now that Sandy and Nick seem to agree on the Egyptian mode, ...
but...
The Esrolians always seemed more Minoan to me. Females have high status
in the culture, the use of the two-handed axe (labrys) as a
ceremonial/religious symbol, and the intimations of high civilization,
emphasis on leisure and peaceful arts (all those beautiful murals), and a
certain feeling of effeminacy in their art and culture as compared with
the more war-like seeming Mycenaeans. In addition, we have the figure of
Minos as a sort of god-king ruler and Daedelus the artificer (a
God-Learner perhaps). Even the Pharaoh's nautical activities fits in with
the (hypothetical) Minoan dominance of the Aegean.
Richard Purtill's books
The Golden Gryphon Feather
The Mirror of Helen
The Stolen Goddess
(The last has an interesting Heroquest-like activity.)
give a good version of the feel a Minoan-style Esrolia might have.
Nick Brooke on Divine Intervention:
>Maybe part of the answer is that POW lost to gain Divine Intervention is
>set aside by your God for your use in the afterlife, but isn't of any use
>to you in mortal existence (i.e. Ever). This way, someone who'd DI'd
>several times in life, and attracted his deity's attention a lot, would
>be looking forward to a really nice time after death.
Nick again, quoting Gray:
>> Gray:
>> More British - Sir Ethelrist is supposed to be a Brithini.
>I always see Ethilrist as an Italian Renaissance Prince --especially when
>you look at Muse Roost, that vast monument to his own ego. I am not sure
>he is a Brithini -- he appears to be from Ralios (cf. History of My Black
>Horse Troop), and to have a personality. But yeah, if you Colonial types
>think British = Civilized, run him as British.
I always thought of Sir Ethilrist as being a lot like Sir John Hawkwood,
the captain of the White Company. Sort of combines both of your ideas,
eh?
Nick, your analysis of the Path of the Sun/God-Time activities influence
on present day religious beliefs was GREAT. Thanks, a definite keeper.
---------
John Medway says re: Sandy's notes in storage -
>Hmmm, maybe we should send a party of Lhankor Mhy and Irripi Ontor types
>to go start an archaeological dig at Sandy's "U-Store-It" shed?
>Volunteers?
My dads got a shovel, and we could use the barn ... lets put on a dig!
;-)
=====
Mark
=====
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Mark Sullivan *
* *
* ...A cynic smells the flowers and looks for the casket. *
* *
* E-MAIL: sullivam.mlc.lib.mi.us *
* SNAIL-MAIL: 2445 East Burnt Tree #10 *
* East Lansing, MI 48823 *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
---------------------
From: sullivam@mlc.lib.mi.us (Mark Sullivan -- Michigan Library Consortium)
Subject: Just can't quit on Esrolia
Message-ID:
Date: 7 Nov 93 08:47:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2224
Re: all Nick Brooke's stuff on Egyptian-style Esrolia -
Nick the Egyptians also had enemies and some-time mercenaries
called the Sea Peoples which included various peoples (Philistines,
Dardanians, Sherden, Shekelesh, Keshkesh, and Irwen). The depictions of
the Sherdens who did serve as Egyptian mercenaries, gave them long (for
bronze-era) swords and horned helmets with a disk in between.
There you have your Storm Bull (as husband) cultists.
====
Mark
====
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Mark Sullivan *
* *
* ...A cynic smells the flowers and looks for the casket. *
* *
* E-MAIL: sullivam.mlc.lib.mi.us *
* SNAIL-MAIL: 2445 East Burnt Tree #10 *
* East Lansing, MI 48823 *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
---------------------
From: jmk@ukc.ac.uk
Subject: Rip-offs
Message-ID: <9311071905.AA00712@Sun.COM>
Date: 7 Nov 93 18:54:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2225
Good news that the RQ3 boxed set is being replaced by a cheaper
version, but what about the supplements. Dorastor costs 18 pounds
(OK, it'll do a $ sign, why not a pound sign - I refuse to resort
to #!) here in the UK, for a relatively slim paperback. How can
this possibly be justified? Its about time AH looked at Chaosium
and FASA, and saw that it appears to be cheaper to produce a
thicker book for about 6 pounds less! The books are high quality,
but currently, they are a total rip-off.
James King
---------------------
From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: Dragon Pass
Message-ID: <9311071929.AA12397@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 7 Nov 93 07:29:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2226
Medway and I got together for a game of Dragon Pass yesterday.
Neither of us had played in years, so we started out with the
"Stemming the Tide Scenario" in order to get back in the groove. The
Sartarites (me) quickly decimated the Lunars' western flank and took
Duck Town and were engaged in a delaying defense around Jonstown.
Alas, the Lunars broke through at the last minute and captured the
fortress, leaving the game in a draw.
Next, not wanting to stay up all night playing the full game, we
decided to play the "Dousing the Flames" scenario. It was a total
rout for the Independents (Medway). In the first turn, the massed
Lunar magics together with Jar-eel and the Full Moon Corp blasted a
good chunk of the Independents' forces and captured a couple of the
Grazelanders' herd. I would like to think it was the result of my
superior tactical abilities, but the scenario really does seem
incredibly unbalanced. There seems to be no way for the Indies to
survive except to give up on defending Bagnot and Dunstop and to try
to slow the Lunar drive down to Rich Post and the Wild Temple until
the clock runs out. Pretty boring. Does anyone have any strategy
hints for effectively defending against the Lunars?
--David Gadbois