Bell Digest v931111p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 11 Nov 1993, part 2
Precedence: junk


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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: creation
Message-ID: 
Date: 10 Nov 93 22:25:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2273

Colin Watson in X-RQ-ID: 2250

>Joerg Baumgartner wrote:
>[re new sorcery spells; esp Creation type spells]

>>Any magical creation can be of temporal nature only.

>A reasonable premise. Is there a Good Reason for this?

Culturally biased as I currently am, yes, there is. Creation is the 
domain of the Invisible God in his Creator aspect. If any magician 
could do the same, why have a creator?

And there is the cost for permanent effects of magic. I doubt a mere 
mortal's soul would give enough material for 1 ENC of any substance 
while being burned off totally.

If you go the runic way, to create anything within time you must master 
the (time-defying) Infinity rune. Held by the Invisible God, Arachne 
Solara and Flamal, all three of them active creators.

Aside: The Draconic myth of the dismemberment of the Primal Dragon and 
the concept of a loving and caring creator who invested a great part of 
his soul (strange concept for deities, but how else to call it? 
Essence? Power?) seem to go hand in hand.

[Question about disappearing substance]
>Well, remember a month or so ago, towards the end of the spirit plane discussion
>Paul Reilly posted an excellent theory about the topology of Glorantha:

>"I do tend to think that a fibre bundle is a fairly good model for the
> Gloranthan universe.  The geometry of the bundle is complicated, but one
> slice through it is the mundane plane.  Now find every fire on the mundane
> plane and mark the fibres at those points.  Follow those fibres up to the
> 'God Plane' and you will find that they all run into Aether, the Source of
> Fire."

>I like this idea a lot. I think creation-type spells would work by splitting
>a new strand off from an existing cosmic-fibre. Where this new strand
>passes through the material plane a new source of Fire (or whatever) forms.
>The substance created would not be totally new, it would simply come
>from an existing source (which might be some distance away) where the bulk
>of the fibre is.
>When the spell ended, the strand would tend to snap back into its original
>place unless some force held it back, so the creation would "vanish".

Then I'd call it "Summon (substance)". The substance provided would be 
taken away somewhere else along the fibre.

I see a considerable difference between merely transferring substance 
by magical means and actually creating it out of energy. E = m c^2, 
anybody, as the great Zistori sage Albertus Monolithus postulated: E is 
the essence used, m is the magical mass of the substance, and c^2 is 
the yet to be determined maximum magical flow, or current.

>>Else we already have the Phantom (...) spells which create temporal 
>>reality.

>Yeah, but Phantom (sense) is an active spell for creating complex things.
>I was thinking more of creating simple substances (elements) which did not
>require active concentration to maintain.

Hmm. If I had a matrix with a trigger condition, who would have to 
concentrate to keep up the phantom?

>[re scenarios]
>>Well, since the pool of possible authors of a scenario and the 
>>readership of this list do overlap considerably, how would you design 
>>such a scenario that is more than just visiting the next door dungeon?

>Look at successful game systems...
>For investigative scenarios look at CoC: The setting can be fairly generic
> eg. in a city, in a Big Old House, on a ship etc.
> Ok, we need to know the country; sometimes it specifies a particular city (but
> not always); sometimes a particular date is given (again, not always); apart 
> from that, the background given is minimal except where it directly affects
> the plot. Once the GM has a firm idea of where the action is going to take
> place he can consult source material for the time/place *if* he feels extra
> detail is necessary (which I usually don't).
> The important things which are needed in an investigative scenario: NPCs
> (names, descriptions, motivations), plot, clues (maybe in handout format),
> location details (building floorplans etc), EOSM (optional).

Then what keeps you from changing the unimportant things in a scenario, 
and enjoy the original setting as a piece of Gloranthan literature?

Combat scenarios: Aren't these out of vogue? To be able to sell them, 
the companies imprint heavy cultural background. Why should the 
situation for RQ be different?

>The important thing IMO is that the scenario should be a discrete unit: it
>should not rely on background knowledge; it should include enough background
>to run the game (and no more). Above all, a scenario is not a good place to
>introduce major new fragments of Gloranthan Lore and should not be used as an
>excuse for such (all very much My Humble Opinion). I judge scenarios by the
>plot and not by the background (the two *are* separable: consider
>"Seven Samurai" and "The Magnificent Seven"; same plot, different background).
>Maybe I'm asking for the impossible...?

How would you run this plot in Prax? In Arolanit?

But you picked one of the few plots very adaptable to most fantasy 
settings. One might add in a Robin Hood theme, a crusade, a whodunnit, 
and the classical dungeon, other handy plots no campaign should go 
without. But as soon as I leave these plots, even when just changing 
little irritating bits, I need to specify the background.

But then I have little problems to adapt plots I like to my setting. A 
little distortion of the setting as well as of the campaign occurs, 
agreed, but that's the fact for any gaming activity.

And if the background info is essential, it can be delivered with the 
scenario. If I want info about the Apple Lane area, the scenario is the 
first place I look for it. Ok, so I have to buy it. AH has to sell to 
pay contributors, so it works out. This is an expensive pasttime :-(

Major background info may be included in scenarios, if essential for 
them, as long as it is included in an encyclopaedic publication which 
follows. As long as the same text isn't reprinted three times (aka 
Kyger Litor syndrom), I can live with that.

>Gloranthan Lore sourcebooks would allow GMs to flesh-out scenario detail if
>they wanted. Sourcebooks could contain sample stats for local militias,
>encounters etc. which could be slotted into the scenario. Similarly, sample
>floorplans of buildings from different cultures could be included. Using this
>info, scenarios could be modified if required and tailored to the GMs own
>campaign ideas.

I'd love to see those. But again: if we want to see them, we've gotta 
write them.


-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Lunar Propaganda
Message-ID: <931110222237_100270.337_BHB36-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Nov 93 22:22:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2274

_________________
Ed Wallman wrote:

> We thought arts and crafts would be good Illuminating media:
> - puzzling yet intriging tapestry design hanging from a Lunar
    official's wall
> - oddly angled dimensions of the Lunar priest's garden
> - bad performance art (i.e. performance art)
> - haunting melodies of a popular government supported flutist
    (or whatever Lunars play)

I agree with this suggestion, and would go further...

I see almost all the institutions of the Lunar Empire as potential media 
for Illumination: from the dehumanising discipline of the Red Army, to the 
interrogation chambers of Danfive Xaron (Winston Smith?), to the tortuous 
legal proceedings of the lawcourts (from Kafka's Trial), to the massive 
'Illuminated' patriotic slogans you can see everywhere in Glamour. And not 
forgetting the mind-numbingly convoluted 'logic' of Lunar doctrines and 
sermons, and the pervasive influence of the so-called Philosophies (which 
are, of course, the names given to different schools of Illuminates).

Greg has said in conversation that a large proportion of the population of 
Silver Shadow and Glamour are Illuminated (though I do not know whether he 
meant *relatively* large or was talking absolutes -- the former seems more 
probable): simply by witnessing the manifestations of the Lunar Way that go 
on around them as parts of everyday life, they rack up a few Illumination 
percentiles per year, until they \flip/.

This has led to my hypothesis (which may be in print somewhere) that the 
Lunar Empire is a means and not an end in itself. It exists in order to 
establish the conditions that will enable the largest possible number of 
Gloranthans to become Illuminated into the Light of the Lunar Way. With 
this achieved, there will no longer be any need for the Empire: it will 
have served its purpose, and can peacefully come to an end. (I recall a 
similar defense of Soviet Dictatorships being employed in the USSR: a 
transitional step on the road to Socialist Utopia). Perhaps the White 
Moonies imagine that the point of no return has now been reached...

It's interesting to note in this regard that 'Lunar Thinkers' are still 
around in Harshax Year Zero... and to wonder as to whether Moonson himself 
is aware of the potential brevity of his tenure.

______________________
Graeme Lindsell wrote:

> That's what I was thinking of, though I didn't remember the name. As I
> recall, the latifundiae were made possible by the vast numbers of slaves
> made available by the conquests of the late Republic.

And by the coincidental absence of small landholders, away making those 
conquests (conquests of *land*, of course), while the rich landlords back 
home snaffled up their own small plots... Makes MIA's look like a storm in 
a teacup. If anyone wants to read a bogglingly excellent and different book 
of Ancient History, pick up "Conquerors and Slaves" by Keith Hopkins. It 
has a flowchart at the start, of social and economic tensions, that I would 
*love* to replicate-in-equivalences for the Lunars in the Seventh Wane.

> The posited future history of the Empire in Dragon Pass seems
> a little strange. Can anyone recall a similar (Earthly) incident
> where an empire successfully (and easily) conquers a region only
> to be kicked out and possibly destroyed within 30 years? ...
> I can't think of many other examples of expanding empires collapsing
> in pre-modern times.

I like to see Sheng Seleris and High King Argrath as taking over rather 
than destroying the Lunar Empire. Sheng Seleris's "New Moon" or 
"Shadowmoon" Empire would appear to have worshipped the Red Moon in its 
Dark phase (perhaps as a way of crippling Yara Aranis while justifying the 
atrocities of the nomad overlords). Argrath appears (perhaps inadvertently, 
perhaps by design) to have created the White Moon out of the ruin of the 
Red. Leaving aside the magical and physical implications of these, the 
clear political meaning is that both rulers worked within the existing 
framework of the Lunar Empire -- they did not simply destroy it, but 
instead adopted and adapted the structures they found.

I agree, that's not answering the question. Perhaps you should look at the 
timescale in which Empires are overrun by barbarians -- Mongols in China, 
Ottoman Turks in Araby, Macedonians in Persia, Germanic hordes in Rome. The 
extent of this "backlash" (from subjugated province to conquering nation) 
appears, however, to be unprecedented in our world. Perhaps seeing the 
Sartarites as Macedonians, and Argrath as a hybrid Philip/Alexander, might 
help us put a historic perspective on his achievements in re: the Free Army 
and the creation of a hegemony in Dragon Pass -- as well as giving us a 
model for why his conquests did not (apparently) hold together after his 
demise. [Hey: an afterthought: Arthur's Britain? Renascent Romans conquer 
the Saxons, and are then chucked out and *completely* forgotten? No, that's 
too far-fetched.]

Final Q: should the Lunar Empire have been expanding in the Seventh Wane?

====
Nick
====

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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Dirty Old Men
Message-ID: <931110231334_100270.337_BHB21-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Nov 93 23:13:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2275

___________________________
Colin Watson, on Scenarios:

> The important thing IMO is that the scenario should be a discrete unit:
> it should not rely on background knowledge; it should include enough
> background to run the game (and no more). Above all, a scenario is not
> a good place to introduce major new fragments of Gloranthan Lore and
> should not be used as an excuse for such.

I dare say you know we aren't going to agree. The advantage of a Gloranthan 
scenario with a detailed location and culture is that it makes it simple to 
get into a part of the world. If all scenarios are generic, there's no easy 
way to break into the complex Gloranthan background. Gentle presentation 
through a well-crafted scenario (like Gaumata's Vision or Troubled Waters) 
is a great way of learning how the world works.

A scenario written to fit a specific part of the world is at least going to 
be instantly usable in that location. "Seven Samurai," after all, came out 
in a non-generic form, and was subsequently pillaged/emulated by others. I 
would not like to see a write-up of the plot of "Seven Samurai" in terms of 
Fighters, People, etc. All the variations on that theme have local colour 
splashing out all over.

There are any number of works of fiction available in loads of media 
(books, plays, films, comics) that can be adapted for RQ scenario ideas: I 
don't think this is a good argument for turning the one purely Gloranthan 
medium (the Gloranthan RQ scenario) into a source of generic plots. As a 
time- pushed occasional gamemaster ('cos I spend so much time Grey-Sageing 
instead of getting role-playing sessions ready to run), I really appreciate 
the convenience of slipping into a comfortable, easy-to-read, sensibly 
written, Gloranthan scenario.

Gloranthan lore belongs in Gloranthan games. You can't really divorce the 
two, and it would be a terrible shame if you tried: a sterile thing to do. 
I'm not sure how you distinguish a "major" fragment from any interesting 
mention or use of stuff: to make such a value judgement, you have to read 
the source first! And new Gloranthan material can and should be presented 
*anywhere* -- even on this Daily.

At the end of the day: who else publishes Gloranthan stuff we can use? I am 
dead set against the de-Gloranthification of RuneQuest materials: there are 
any number of non-Gloranthan games, books, movies, etc. out there, if 
that's what you want to play or convert. But leave the real thing alone!

All this IMHO, of course. And until I write a scenario myself, I can't 
really complain about what we get from the various publishers... so it's 
lucky I've had no real cause to (since Daughters of Darkness).

____________________________
David Cake, on Ritual Magic:

I like the idea that proper use of 'Contagion' (secret names, spittle, nail 
clippings, etc.) gives a boost to your chances of overcoming an opponent in 
POW v POW resistance rolls. However, your proposed boost to rituals through 
'Similarity' probably covers the same ground: if you're trying to hurt a 
person through ritual magic, why not make the magic more likely to affect 
them rather than more likely simply to succeed (as cast chance can already 
be boosted under current Ritual rules by Ceremony skill)?

Your point on extending spell range for 'curses' appears valid, esp. when 
viewed in the light of David Dunham's "Detect Antelope" example. Given a 
more animistic model for Spirit Magic, there would be little difference 
between casting a spell at someone over a great distance, and sending a big 
spirit over there to beat the crap out of them. The former would generally 
lead to more interesting game effects (though weird spirits are always an 
entertaining possibility). Perhaps we can blur or abolish the distinction?

I prefer to assume that appropriate objects and rituals *must* be used in 
any casting of ritual magic, rather than grant a bonus to casting chance if 
they are in fact employed. Less paperwork, more realism. This would mean 
that 'Correspondences' were a dead letter -- though a rag-bag of examples 
of neat ideas for foci, matrices, etc. would be nice to see. (And no, I 
don't mean really *clever* powergaming ideas: I mean sensible ones based on 
the material culture of the people concerned).

______________________
Sandy, on the Doraddi:

> WOMEN AND MEN AND MARRIAGE

> (This particular marriage custom is not universal, but it is fairly  
> common, and it sure brings culture shock to Genertelan PCs in a hurry.)

The flipside of it (old men who have a harem of young women) is what 
happens in Dara Happa, surely. The obverse (old women with a harem of young 
men) can be found in Esrolia. The unusual thing about this Pamaltelan form 
is that it is cyclical, and monogamous within each phase of that cycle. We 
Genertelans will perhaps be more scandalised to see the reverse of our own 
marriage custom practiced in conjunction with it, rather than astonished by 
the disparity in ages in itself.

IMHO, natch!

> NEXT TIME I WRITE: Details on Jmijie the Wanderer and the Oases.
> And more on Doraddi society.

I can hardly wait...
Looks like MOB's being 'scooped' good and proper!

====
Nick
====