From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 12 Nov 1993, part 3
Precedence: junk
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From: graeme.lindsell@anu.edu.au (Graeme A Lindsell)
Subject: Decline and Fall of the Lunar Empire
Message-ID: <9311120028.AA02884@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 12 Nov 93 16:28:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2289
Joerg writes:
>Then why feed them to Chaos Horrors like the bat? I know of no incident
>where Sartarite captives of war were enslaved and carried off to work the
>fields of Lunar Heartland.
In KoS it says that all the defenders of Boldhome either escaped
or were captured or sold into slavery (P124, in the CHDP I think).
One of the Theyalan's major complaints about the Dara Happans is
the practice of slavery. That, along with the Lunars Roman parallels
make the idea of them practicing large scale agricultural slavery
seem very natural to me.
Collapsing Empires:
>Without temporal order:
>Alexander the Great's empire, the Romans in Britain (North of Hadrian's
>Wall), several short-lived empires in Asia Minor before the Persians took
>over, Theoderich's Goths in Italy, Attila the Hun's empire, Outremer,
>Geiserich and the Vandals in Carthago, Cnut the Great's English-Norwegian-
>Danish kingdom, mythical Arthur Pendragon's Britain, the late Mayan civil
>war, Mesopotamia after the fall of the Assyrs ...
>And I doubt I know much more than you.
Well you do, since I don't know anything about half of these. Those
I do know about don't seem to fit my question, which I should have
phrased better: "what (earthly) empires have easily conquered an area only
to be expelled and the conquered themselves by that area within 50 years?"
The collapsing empires you mention seem to be those which collapsed
of their own accord, with perhaps some outside pressure.
Is this what really happened in Peloria? We know about the White Moonies,
that the Pentans are beginning to raid the Redlands, that there are
prophecies of invasion when Charg is released from the Ban. In my
view what happened to the Empire was that it was attacked from all
sides, and that a large proportion of it's citizens were not interested
in fighting: I can see many Illuminates joining the White Moonies just
out of self interest, given what we're told of Illumination's solipsistic
viewpoint. A man with the view "I am the centre of everything, and no
rules apply to me" doesn't make a good soldier IMO. Especially the
psychos that come from accidental illumination. This is probably where
most of the missing Heartland counters went in Nick's summary.
Of course, Argrath's Saga isn't going to mention any of these other
factors in the decline and fall of the Lunar empire; though it's
obliged to mention the Pentans after Argrath rescues Sheng Seleris,
we're told their starting to raid now. Also see Nicks point
about Romes fall a couple of days ago "Our Germans will guard the
border with the Germans" seems similar to how the Empires Red Haired
Caravans (whatever their name was) acted.
On the Mostali:
>Smell and taste tend to be underdeveloped - ever tried dwarfen food?
Ever tried dogfood? Just because we don't like the taste doesn't
mean another species doesn't
I have to side with Nick on Gloranthan scenarios: if we don't get
them with RQ products, where do we get them?
Nick
>Final Q: should the Lunar Empire have been expanding in the Seventh Wane?
I'm not sure it was. I think it was Tarsh that was expanding: perhaps
the "latifundiae" were starting to have a real impact on Tarsh, perhaps
just ambition and a desire to match their overlords. When most of Tarsh's
army becomes Dragon food, it can no longer defend itself, and the Emperor
feels obliged to step in.
>This has led to my hypothesis (which may be in print somewhere) that the
>Lunar Empire is a means and not an end in itself. It exists in order to
>establish the conditions that will enable the largest possible number of
>Gloranthans to become Illuminated into the Light of the Lunar Way. With
This sounds very likely. (Do I get the feeling you don't like the
Empire much? :-)). See my comments about Illuminated soliers above:
I think the Empire's aim is a self defeating one.
Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au
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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham , via RadioMail)
Subject: Sartar tribes
Message-ID: <199311120536.AA22758@radiomail.net>
Date: 12 Nov 93 05:36:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2290
I left out one tribe: the Pol-Joni are considered Sartarite.
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From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: Cultura & Militaria
Message-ID: <9311120653.AA17357@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 12 Nov 93 06:53:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2291
Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 2215
>>
>> When we cross earth cultures divided by 1500 years (Bronze Age Celts
>> and Vikings), why not cross Celts and Egyptians, too? Take Megalith
>> graves for the Nekropolis, men wearing kilts and presenting bare
>> breasts or chest-formed cuirbouilli cuirasses, employing early hoplite
>> unit tactics armed with shield and hand-axe (the weapons of Earth),
>> spears (the logical weapon for everyone employing unit tactics) and
>> twohanded spearaxes (halberds), rather low morale were it not for the
>> fierce Babeester Gor sergeants marching _behind_ the units (like in
>> German thirty and seven years warfare) but masses of these, chariots
We also have to remember that Dragon pass and Maniria are crossroads for
the continent and are somewhat of a melting pot. Hence describing the
Esrolians and surrounds as being populated with a sort of Egypto-Celtic
Minoans works in many ways where any of the three descriptions, by them-
selves, fail.
Mark Sullivan in X-RQ-ID: 2223
>> Richard Purtill's books
>> The Golden Gryphon Feather
>> The Mirror of Helen
>> The Stolen Goddess
>> (The last has an interesting Heroquest-like activity.)
>> give a good version of the feel a Minoan-style Esrolia might have.
I'll have to check some of these out.
David Gadbois in X-RQ-ID: 2226
>> Medway and I got together for a game of Dragon Pass yesterday.
>> Neither of us had played in years, so we started out with the
>> ...
>> Alas, the Lunars broke through at the last minute and captured the
>> fortress, leaving the game in a draw.
What the Sartarite propagandist does not say, is that I also sacked Boldhome
with the last of the fleeing remnants from Duck Point, and thus ensured safety
and comfort for the Lunar way of life ( not a draw, bucko! ).
>> Next, not wanting to stay up all night playing the full game, we
>> decided to play the "Dousing the Flames" scenario. It was a total
>> rout for the Independents (Medway). In the first turn, the massed
>> Lunar magics together with Jar-eel and the Full Moon Corp blasted a
The above chest thumping ( mine ) does not even begin to assuage the
humiliating TWO TURN "Dousing the Flames" game we played. It was THAT bad.
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2237
>>
>> David Cheng asks:
Nope. 'Twas me.
>> >> Did the Sables line up with the Praxians, then turn on them, or did
>> >> they join the Lunar lines before the battle commenced?
>> ...
>>
>> The Sables don't bother to deny that they joined the Lunars, and it's
>> no big deal to them whether they switched before or after the battle
>> commenced. They gloat over the fact that they were on the winning
>> side, and sneer at the idiots they tricked. Of course, inter-tribe
>> "loyalty" has never been too important in Prax anyway.
It's only a big deal when setting up a scenario.
>> Loren Miller sez:
>>
>> > In hot, dry climates you want some real covering, though not
>> > necessarily heavy robes.
>>
Nope. 'twas me. Though I'll quickly concede the point, as I made the wrong one!
I was thinking of the Sahara, and of the Gobi, et al. Not of Prax or earthly
equivalents.
>> Maybe the much worse climate of the Sahara forces the Arabs to wear
>> those robes. Prax isn't as hot as the Sahara, nor as dry. It is, in
>> fact, fairly cold in the winter.
And they're all quite cold at night, too.
>> Incidentally, the troll Mantis Riders that were remarked on a while
>> back aren't really a tribe. Some of the insect-breeding trolls in
I wish this hadn't come up. I can't help but think of that, that, that THING!
That tttthhhiiinggggg that Dobski drew. uuuuuuugggghhhhh!!!!!
Ah, thorazine. Better. Ah. Thank ye Gods the art has improved!
>> > But the ... [Prax & Wastes nomads] ... trade-off, both on a
>>
>> > seasonal cycle, and whenever the [tribal alliances] shift.
>>
>> their years of plenty) and the cycle begins all over again. Right
>> now, the Bison and Impala folk are out there getting leaner by the
>> minute.
Were these guys punished more by the Lunars, or hurt more at Moonbroth
and elsewhere?
David Cheng in X-RQ-ID: 2251
>>
>> DRAGON PASS
>>
>> + Victory = Cities just doesn't work for me. Furthest is
Yes to sacking the Temple, et al, but also for cities. Cities are logistical
and trade centers, and are imnportant both within a game, and between games.
>> + I'm thinking of deducting a movement point off most units.
>> I think the game 'moves' too fast.
Maybe just an additional 1MP for moving into a ZOC. It's too tempting
to sit there and work out all of the machinations of glomming units
together to really K.O. someone.
>> * The Big One *
>> I would totally change the Diplomacy Point game. It seems to
>> me that most of the peoples of the pass would rather fight the
Most of this seems reasonable, though we didn't play a scenario with
diplomacy, and I hardly remember how it all works.
>> To balance, the Lunars get huge unit replacement pools, and
>> even more exotic stuff, like Moon Boats, a Yara Aranis counter,
>> etc.
Cool. Yes.
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2252
>>
>> Exotics are, of course, an exception. Even the Heroes represent more
>> than one guy, tho. (Argrath being himself plus his cotery of 100-odd
I should hope so!
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2258
>>
>> > What percentage of the total forces of the Lunars do the units in
>> > Dragon Pass represent?
>>
>> A biggie. Hope you don't mind me going on a bit...
>>
>> ...
>>
>> The above tedious mechanical number-crunching speculation should give us
>> some kind of framework to work from (or argue about). It seems the
Who better, but an accountant? I'll have to pour through this later.
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2259
>>
>> Joerg said:
>>
>> > Esrolian Wall shields. Might even be the top armament of the Building
>> > Wall. We know from Genert's creation of the Copper Sands that Earth
>> > never was shy about sacrificing loyal troops to achive a tactical
>> > advantage. This really makes me wonder a) how many Esrolite infantry
>> > were interred in that wall, b) are their spirits worshipped as
>> > guardians of the wall, c) who performed this great ritual?
>>
>> I love it! Provisional answers: (a) Lots!, (b) Yes!, (c) the Esrolite Earth
>> Priestesses, while "lending the troops magical support from behind". Though
>> I'd still have a major Gnomic component in the raising of this structure.
>> Maybe they only used up the infantry when necessary to plug a breach fast.
Joerg, this is pure genius. Loved it.
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2267
>>
>> militias would not ever serve outside their home province. I think
>> that the "peltasts" you're looking for in the Lunar army are the
>> Thunder Delta Slingers. With these guys who use magical slingstones
>> to act as skirmishers and missile support, the Dara Happan regulars
I had assumed that some of the lower strength units were peltasts.
The Thunder Delta types are an exception. They wouldn't be wasted in
the close-range missile & skirmish tactics usually used by peltasts.
>> can concentrate on learning to march in step in their massed
>> phalanxes. Also, I expect that in Glorantha magic attacks take the
>> place of massed missiles to harass and disrupt opposing troops. I
Ah, but there should be both.
>> From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>> Subject: The Dragon Pass Renaissance
>> Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1993 21:42:48 MEZ
[much stuff deleted]
>> Now with all these figures, let me contemplate the Building Wall battle:
[much more stuff deleted]
Oh My God. A quick glance put the number of counters in the neighborhood of
150-180, and the total number of warm bodies at 75,000 - 90,000.
Let's see what I may have gotten myself into, here: (smaller case, 75000)
At 64 people per figure, that's 1172 lumps of lead, or 293 stands of close-
order infantry.
If they were entirely based on 20x40mm bases, that would yield 234,400 square
mm of area, or 363.32 square inches
If arrayed in a marching column, that would be 11720 mm, or 231 inches long.
Something tells me I will not be hauling the entire Holy Country O.B. to
Baltimore.
Of course, there are all of the lunars, too...
Hmmm, maybe I should do Moonbroth instead. Or maybe just a tiny Sartarite v.
Lunars scenario, or maybe I should just hide.
BTW: David, in which year was it that you lost that entire Peltast regiment
under your command?
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From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: non military stuph
Message-ID: <9311120732.AA17444@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 12 Nov 93 07:32:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2292
From: eosgg@raesp-farn.mod.uk (Geoff Gunner) in X-RQ-ID: 2219
>> Loved the stuff on Darktongue from Paul - add to it they're great singers.
>> Knock the spots of most humans. Imagine the suprise when this hulking smelly
>> toll opens it's mouth, and a beautiful clear soprano emerging.
Remember: Beauty is in the ears of the beholder.
>> I love ducks. A creature *that* cynical, *that* depressed, *that* obnoxious is
>> a boon to every fun-loving referee the world over.
A creature *that* annoying, *that* grating, *that* whining ...
No wonder the Lunars put a bounty on their beaks!
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) in X-RQ-ID: 2220
>> IMHO, having all scenarios designed only for outsiders would be better than
>> what we have now, because then the sense of wonder and oddity would be
>> exploited.
That'd be an especially good way to set up a Lunar scenario. Say a trading
or research mission by Barbarians who head into the empire. I've gotten a
pseudo-"wow" reaction out of one thing I've pulled on the PCs in my current
campaign, but I guess they're pretty jaded, even for Lunars.
>> >> From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>> >> The language problem you mentioned limit the visitors scenarios to
>> >> dungeon-style roleplaying - a problem I've recently encountered with my
>>
>> Um yes. That could be a problem with the outsider approach. (Of course,
>> inability to talk to people has gotten my players into lots of rousing
>> violence.) I probably play a bit loose with language, once there's 10% or
A non-Gloranthan campaign played by one of the Austin groups (I missed it!
ARGH!), was Vikings marooned in Moorish Spain, after their attempt to raid
cities on the Mediterranean). Can you say language barrier?
It was supposedly rousing violence, and equally rousing fun.
Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 2233
>>
>> The reason is simple: Scenarios that dont have a certain informative
>> value for Glorantha lovers might not be bought by them. On the other
>> hand pure sourcebooks won't sell to non-Glorantha RuneQuesters.
Bing! Bing! Bing! A Winner!
>> I agree that a fully fleshed out encyclopaedia for each and any
>> lexicalic information about Glorantha would be great. Unlikely to
>> happen, though. Maybe a fully indexed abstract, similar to those of
>> scientific magazines, would be feasible either as book or as database,
>> with short abstracts of the information in the source, and a literature
>> reference for those who want to read the full text and have access to a
>> copy.
This is a lovely dream. I hope something like it could be done, but the scope
of the project... ug! Maybe if we each pick a topic...
>> Seems somehow unlikely that most of them are fanatical worshippers of
>> different deities, and still flock together without constant
>> theological disputes. This makes up for some roleplaying, but there is
>> a danger that this becomes the sole object of roleplaying. Do we want
>> that to happen?
Also the fanatic approach cuts out a whole realm of character types for the
players. Gone would be the scraggled-looking Humakti staggering through the
streets, drunk, being chewed out by his Sword for not living up to his duties.
Misfits and losers are some of the most fun characters you can have.
>> >From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>> >The Gloranthan Bestiary implies that the skinning of a tattooed matrix
>> >IS possible. That's why the Magisauri have the user restriction that
>> >onyly they themselves may use the enchantments added to the matrices on
>> >their hides.
This may just be for while they're alive. *Some* GM, somewhere, probably
would allow a PC to read and use the Matrix on the Magisaur's chest, while
fighting same Magisaur. Completely idiotic, I know, but somewhere, somebody...
WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU in X-RQ-ID: 2261
>>
>> Once in a late night duscussion, a friend and I also decided that asking
>> questions is too obvious. Players who have an inkling how illumination works
>> will not bother answering strange questions and will not become illuminated.
Stafford also came out against the idea of riddles as presented in RQ,
though this was before the refinements of Dorastor. I don't know what his
position would be now.
>> We thought arts and crafts would be good illuminating media:
>> - puzzling yet intriging tapestry design hanging from a Lunar official's wall
>> - oddly angled dimensions of the Lunar priest's garden
>> - bad performance art (i.e. performance art)
>> - haunting melodies of a popular government supported flutist
>> (or whatever Lunars play)
Nice examples. Also add those little ( or big! ) Zen sand garden thingies
with a few art-pebbles and a rake, kaleidoscopes, and those tiny Praxian
mushrooms...
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2267
>>
>> Geoff Gunner asks:
>> > if you were a priest of, say, Orlanth, would you want all these
>> > farmers coming up to you offering you 10% of their time ? What
>> > would you do with it ? Or 10% of their crops ?
>>
>> You bet I would. "Work on the temple crops every Thursday, Olaf." I'd
>> say, and assign other farmers other days, thus I could keep the crops
Definitely. That's one way it was done on our planet, why not Glorantha?
>> suddenly Harmast balked. "I've got to go back!" he cried, "I can't
>> leave my people without a leader." and the player promptly retired
>> Harmast from active play. This was a difficult decision on his part,
This sounds like one of the better experiences you can have in a game.
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