From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) Organization: Lankhor Mhy and Associates To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Dec 1993, part 1 Message-ID:Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes) Subject: Lunars, etc Message-ID: <199312060929.BAA21535@mail.netcom.com> Date: 5 Dec 93 17:29:02 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2563 I'm thinking about basing a campaign in Carmania, and naturally, I've stumbled across the near total lack of decent information on the Lunars. They don't even provide a complete cult writeup for the Seven Mothers any more... So, my main questions are: What is the "Carmanian Heresey of Malkionism," which apparently everyone there practices? What is the Cult of the Invisible Orlanth, and what benefits are derived from its worship? (I assume it is some kind of sorcerorous worship of Orlanth) What benefits are derived from Invisible God worship? My assumption is that "miracles" occasionally happen for the faithful. Western society has four castes: Farmer, Knight, Noble, and Wizard. Where do the priests of the Invisible God fit in? Is this one of the duties of a powerful sorceror, or is it a separate profession? -steve --------------------- From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (ngl28) Subject: "COPYRIGHTS AND ENCYCLOPAEDIA Message-ID: <5447*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=d400_C=de_@MHS> Date: 6 Dec 93 14:01:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2565 From: ROBERTSON@delphi.intel.com (Roderick Robertson, SC1-5, x52936) Subject: Index to Glorantha Date: 5 Dec 93 17:42:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2560 Joerg and the Glorantha Encyclopedia, An Encyclopedia is an enormous task, what I have been working on is an Index to published material. I've only done Dorastor, Sun County, Shadows, and am halfway through the Glorantha Box. So far I'm up to 78 pages... Another benefit of an Index is that there are (to the best of my knowledge) no copyright problems, since the work is not quoting the original material. I'd be willing to add my Index to Joerg's work, certainly. Heck, Most of it would not need to be translated to German! (Unless the German edition has different Gloranthan Names...) Roderick Robertson Robertson@Delphi.intel.com --------------------- From: J.Ditton@vme.glasgow.ac.uk Subject: Humakti, Kolating, etc. Message-ID: <_6_Dec_93_14:47:32_A10060@UK.AC.GLA.VME> Date: 6 Dec 93 14:47:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2566 Hello from Sam -------------- * Humakti swords.. Arrgh! Blush! etc. I had forgotten about sword breaking at Humakti funerals. I guess it shows that the last humakti we had in our campaign was 7 or 8 years ago. I'll need to rethink this. Perhaps it was just his spare sword. Or his *bronze* sword? I know that he was killed by the Orleving clan (curse them and their stinking Malani brothers) as his son rolled 18 for a Hate. * Kolating.. There are many things that a shaman could provide that you (you young Orlanthi) would not be able to get from a priest or priestess. A white lady might heal you or cure your disease but she wouldn't curse anyone for you. A priest *could* divine the sex of your baby although they almost certainly wouldn't unless you were very important but they certainly wouldn't interfere with it. A shaman might. An abortion? Try getting one of those at a Chalana Arroy temple. A lucky charm? A rat repellent? Your husband has lost interest and the nearest Ulerian temple is two days ride from here?... I see shaman as being totally apart from the general structure of Orlanthi society and able to dabble (successfuly or not) in all sorts of wierdo stuff. What the Shaman do for themselves is a different matter but their bread and butter would be all the mundane stuff an organised temple has little time for along with the nastier things that they certainly wouldn't get involved in. I don't think this neccesarily fits in with the formal RQ definition of Shaman, but then what does that matter ;^) * Varmandi - Coming along fine. First game on wednesday 8th. Wish me luck. I'm just off to finish writing the player handouts.. I now wish I had chosen a blank tribe to create as I have put so much work into it. Oh well.. * Sandy & d6 game. Ah that's the game! I remembered that someone(s) connected to RQ had written one of the d6 games. I *thought* it was Star Wars... One of us do have a copy of Ghostbusters somewhere. I must go look at it again.. I suppose they *could* have thought of it themselves - I did! *honest*.. And I was mightily peeved when I saw yours.. ;-) Cheers, Sam. x Not Scotland but Sartar --------------------- From: staats@MIT.EDU Subject: Foresooth! The future is seen! ;-) Message-ID: <9312061640.AA18892@milanese.MIT.EDU> Date: 6 Dec 93 16:40:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2567 Greetings! Just wanted to add my small bit to the on-going discussion of predicting the future. It does not seem like a contradiction that the gods/desses could see the future somewhat. They have access to far more information than mere mortals do, and they have literally "god-like" wisdom and intelligence. So, the ability to see a bit into the future may be just figuring out what is going to happen based on the current "state of the world", but the gods also cannot control or predict the actions of other godlike beings. So, the farther from the current point you would try to foresee, the less accurate the information would be. Reference time travel...time travel is a wonderful concept, as long as the GM can prevent campaign destroying alterations to his/her milieu. There was a book called "The Man Who Folded Himself" (can't remember the author) that presented the view that travelling back through time allowed one to alter the future, but it did *not* alter it for the future you came from. Time travel was a one-way ticket to another dimension. You continue to time travel and change events, but each time you would be placing yourself in the new universe where those particular events you caused to transpire had actually happened. The time traveller was a relic of the origional dimension that he or she came from. HeroQuesting is a great way of handling time travel to the gods age. It is difficult to do a HeroQuest, and the results are limited in scope. So, the players can affect the campaign, but they cannot "destroy the campaign to save it." (Bravo to whoever developed the original concept.) Must be off! Hope this was of interest. In service, Rich --------------------- From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris) Subject: Net RQ/Glorantha Encyclopedia Message-ID: <199312061725.AA29149@batman.b11.ingr.com> Date: 6 Dec 93 17:25:39 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2568 In regard to the discussion of the RQ Encyclopedia, I would also like to throw in my support. I do share some of Nick's misgivings that it could serve as a fascist monolith, but perhaps if we include as a preface the statement that, like Greg, everything in it is wrong, we can lessen the hazard. And, surely if we include statements that the contents are copyright Stafford, etc, then there will be no problems on that score, n'est pas? Several people have proposed starting points. I would like to point out that there is already a RQ Digest start on this; Volume Six Number Seven consisted of "A Visitor's Guide to Glorantha" by Mark Holsworth, Peter Loft, and Michael O'Brien. I took this myself and augmented it for use in my game; I think it would make an excellent starting core for the work being proposed. It is, as they say, pre-Elder Secrets, so it would need to be updated, but a work of the magnitude proposed will need updates whenever anything official is published. So, what say Henk. Should this be sent out again, you think? Or maybe we could have a secondary list for work on the "Encyclopedia Glorantha"? It seems to have a good deal of support on the daily, but I could see a tremendous increase in discussion once work gets started on it. BTW, I really liked David Dunham's "What My Father Told Me" for the Grazers. I'd like to see a lot more of these as well. ------- Boris ------- --------------------- From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (Thom Baguley) Subject: Humakti Swords ... Message-ID: <9312061731.AA26781@Sun.COM> Date: 6 Dec 93 17:30:36 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2569 >From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink) >Subject: Swords and Slimes and everything nice >J.Ditton@vme.glasgow.ac.uk writes: >>I take it that what was said about Humakti swords being taken to the >>afterlife doesn't apply to enchantments and matrices ie Bladesharp. >>These stay behind with the physical weapon. Yes? I have a warrior's >>son who may be in line to inherit his father's sword and I am >>assuming it will keep the spell matix... >>Cheers! Sam x. > Except that the Humakti funeral rite involves breaking the >warrior's sword and leaving it on his grave . . . . This worried me too. However, most Humakti have at least two swords (a show sword and a working sword). My Sword of Humakt has maybe a dozen or more (she is averse to leaving the swords of vanquished foes to rust or selling them for profit). Her iron broadsword would go back to the temple armoury and her bronze greatsword would be broken over her grave. Thom --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9312061806.AA15969@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 6 Dec 93 06:06:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2570 John Medway asks: >DOOM! ? My current computer project. I won't go into it except to say that it has nothing at all to do with RuneQuest. >Are you always sure from where a *successful* spell came? I always play that spells have a sensory aspect to them when cast. Ranged spells are generally both audible and visible (disruption like a beam of light flashing to the target, and a "snapping" sound, frex). In this way, I don't have to worry about "invisible" spells being cast. "Private" spells, like casting healing on yourself, might be another matter, but I've always played that casting a Heal on oneself is one of the more secretive spells, but still obvious if someone is watching for it. Certain spells specially intended to be invisible violate this general rule, but playing this way has two benefits. First, battles are more spectacular, with balls o' light and sparks everywhere. Second, it greatly simplifies GMing. >Hmm, maybe this is connected with the Lunars ruining the fertility >of the lands of Peloria. Maybe it's too much artificial fertilizer, >and too many pesticides? The Lunar destruction of the farm environment is weather-based. Dave Dunham has a lengthy "What the Grazers' Know" section: Looks good to me. I didn't note any reference to one of the major Grazer activities in modern Sartar, which is guiding merchants going to the Holy Country and charging them for the privilege. Also keeping the roads in bad repair so the Grazelander services are necessary. I said: >>The Closing generally only took effect if you went out of sight of >>land. Graeme Lindsell replies > I'm suprised there wasn't more coastal trade along the coasts of >Glorantha and Pameltela then. You can sail a long way without >going out of site of land. Perhaps it was the fear of the sea which >stopped them There WAS coastal trade along said coasts. Unfortunately, when you're traveling along treacherous coasts, you generally need to stop at night, because you might get hung up. The big problem with lotsa coastal trade is that there existed treacherous waters between each big trading complex and the next one, so travel was slow, and there were no ports to stop at, and sometimes the Closing came close inland. For example: Between Fethlon and Kralorela are raw jungle coasts and islands. Dangerous. Then, as you move further along the coast towards Maniria, you encounter the bug-infested swamps along the Chaos Wastes, in which no human dwells. These two obstacles basically prevented all contact between the East and everyone else. Western Maniria is mostly uncivilized forest, but the real problem is the sunken land of Slontos, teaming with Second Age horrors. The rocky coast here, too, is inhabited by evil pig-people who see all sailors as harbingers of evil and kill them on sight (this is based on a memory of the destruction of Slontos). Then, when we get to Tanisor, the shattered Seshnela peninsula is haunted by bad things that discourage travel. Such as the dread Luathelan pirate ship that arrived during the Closing. There's not many good ports in Arolanit, only grumpy Brithini who don't welcome outsiders. In Pamaltela, coastal travel continued through most of the Closing -- the Maslo Sea wasn't affected, so Onlaks and Enkloso kept ships and were ready for the Opening in a big way. Fonrit also engaged in some trade with Vralos. But the jungles of Laskal and the deadly Kimos Peninsula kept east-west trade from prospering. --------------------- From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (Thom Baguley) Subject: Sailing ... Message-ID: <9312061816.AA07159@Sun.COM> Date: 6 Dec 93 18:15:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2571 >Sandy Petersen writes: >>The Closing generally only took effect if you went out of sight of >>land. > I'm suprised there wasn't more coastal trade along the coasts of >Glorantha and Pameltela then. You can sail a long way without >going out of site of land. Perhaps it was the fear of the sea which >stopped them > Graeme Lindsell a.k.a Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au Some coasts are probably just very, very dangerous. Piracy, drifting sandbanks ... and of course reefs (especially around Pamaltela). Coastal navigation would be with smaller ships, making trade less profitable. Thom --------------------- From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland) Subject: Re: The man who folded himself - time travel vs hero quest Message-ID: <9312062306.AA24587@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 7 Dec 93 01:06:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2572 Rich Staats writes: >Greetings! > There was a book called "The Man Who Folded Himself" (can't remember by David Gerrold > the author) that presented the view that travelling back through time > allowed one to alter the future, but it did *not* alter it for the > future you came from. Time travel was a one-way ticket to another > dimension. The most satisfying book on the theme I have ever read. It made the whole concept of time travel consistant just by imposing this one simple rule: If you change the past, you spawn a new thread in history, branching off from the point in time where the change was introduced. Paradox? What paradox? The two realities co-exist, although the time traveller will not be able to return to that reality he came from. And indeed do I see a parallel with heroquesting. If we take the model of the bundle of fibers, a time traveler will travel back along the fiber he currently is on, making a change which results in that particular fiber splitting. He then travels back to the future along that new fiber to his era of origin, which may or may be not recognisable. Well, we all agree :-) that time travel is not possible in Glorantha, so I will not continue this thread. There's no need! In Glorantha, we don't need time travelers to change reality, instead we have people jumping out into the hero-plane, messing around with a couple of threads of history/reality and jumping back into time. -- Henk | Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun. oK[] | My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions" --------------------- From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson) Subject: No Fate Message-ID: <9312061840.AA16534@condor> Date: 6 Dec 93 18:40:29 GMT X-RQ-ID: 2573 ___________ John Medway wrote: >>> GG>re: Colin Watson's model of God-time as perpendicular planes - Not So ! >>> GG>Anyway, you can't compare the two as they aren't of similar qualities. >>> >>CW>They only seem different because we're not used to more than one temporal >>CW>dimension. Just like a fourth spatial dimension would seem bizarre. I think >>CW>comparing GodTime and RealTime is just like comparing length with width. > >But without common units, or ability to convert between measurements of length >and width, you can't compare the two. Quite. But they are *qualitatively* similar. _______________ Steven E Barnes wrote: >>DC>The way I see it, your god knows these things about you, and not much >>DC>else: >>DC>* (roughly) how often you call upon him for rune magic >> >CW>Exactly how often you will ever call on him for rune magic for your >CW>whole existance (even for the Time you haven't experienced yet). > >Even the gods are limited by time. This is quite clear, at least >in the RQ2 material. He simply cannot know future events, even >ones relating to his worshippers. This is the problem with interactions between RealTime and GodTime: I assume diviners will hope to contact their deities "late on" in GodTime, ie. towards the end of GodTime (whatever *that* means) because this is when the god will know most stuff. He will have had all his GodTime experiences etc. and he will also have received all the worship/sacrifice from mortals that he's likely ever to receive. This includes all the times you will sacrifice to him for rune magic. To him in GodTime these are *past events*. In RealTime they are *future events*, but in GodTime they have passed already so the god is not violating the compromise. That's the problem. RealTime & GodTime are meant to be seperate temporal realities, but when you go interacting with a diety you create events which occur in both times. Only actions which happen concurrently in RealTime & GodTime have this problem (this includes sacrifices for Divine Magic, and also Divine Intervention). I don't like it, but that's how it seems to me. >This also creates the problem >of foreknowledge for the GM. By your interpretation, I can ask my >god how much magic I have / will cast for him for all Time. What >happens if the character then dies the next game? (I suppose you >can weasel out of it by claiming the existance of multiple >incarnations... still, the correct sequence of questions and events >could create a paradox.) Good point. There are many problems with this setup. The way I see it is that the future of Glorantha is not fixed any more than it's past is. The past can be changed by HeroQuests; and so can the future. The answers which a god gives you can be absolutey True one day but rendered invalid the next. So what little your God can tell you about the "future" is about as useful as what he can tell you about the past: ie. it's definitely True now, probably True tomorrow too, but it's liable to change without warning sooner or later. All divinations should carry a disclaimer. ;-) > >This also creates the problem that if my character was, or ever >will be a Rune Lord, why can't I ask for divine intervention now? Now that's a damn good question. Conversely, just because I was a Rune Lord yesterday, why should I be considered a Rune Lord today? This is the problem with Gods who live in a separate time. >When dealing with a diety, you are always contacting him at a fixed >time frame. Yes, and like I said earlier, diviners would prefer this to be as late in GodTime as possible. (But do they get any choice?). >In the games our GM runs, we have met dieties from a time >before we started worshiping him. Hmm, this sounds like your GodTime is parallel to RealTime rather than perpendicular. ie. Each point in your GodTime maps to a point in RealTime; which means that GodTime and RealTime are actually the same temporal dimension (separated spatially I suppose). This way you can say whether a RealTime event happened before or after a GodTime event. I prefer to think that GodTime and RealTime are truly separate temporal dimensions ie. they are perpendicular. In this case you *can't say* whether a RealTime event (eg. you joining a cult) occurs before or after a GodTime event (eg. you meeting your god on the GodPlane). But it does throw up an awful lot of strange phenomena which seem to conflict with the RQ rules. :-( >Using this interpretation, divination contacts the diety >at a fixed time time reference, which we generally refer to as "now". >This is important, by the way, since a god such as Nysalor cannot be >contacted thru worship or Divination, since he is dead. You cannot >contact Nysalor, except thru heroquests. By your interpretation, >the current state of a diety is irrelevant, since you are contacting >him in Godtime (clearly, Arkat didn't remove Gbaji from all Time, >since he can be found on the Heroplane). Ahh... I wasn't aware of the status of Nysalor. If this is the case (ie. you really can't call for divination from him even though he is only dead in RealTime, but still exists in GodTime) then this kinda suggests that my theory about divination letting you perceive GodTime is, in fact, a load of old bollocks. Shame, I liked it. Anyway, how do you know that Divination to Nysalor won't work, unless you try? ____________ Geoff Gunner's new angle was: >Why not say a heroquest is making God-time Immanent (ie. *now*). Yes indeed. I imagine that HeroQuesting shifts the Hero's perception and freewill so that he is aware of GodTime and capable of effecting changes in it. At the same time his will & perception in RealTime become restricted (like the Gods'). I reckon all mortals exist in GodTime concurrently with RealTime but are normally unaware of it and incapable of affecting it. [...and later...] >To the observer inside time, it appears that >this has always been the case; the observer outside of time can see that >this new reality only occurs from a certain point along the tapestry of time. But who can observe from outside time? ___ CW.