Bell Digest v931207p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
Sender: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
Organization: Lankhor Mhy and Associates
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Dec 1993, part 1
Message-ID: 
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
Subject: Lunars, etc
Message-ID: <199312060929.BAA21535@mail.netcom.com>
Date: 5 Dec 93 17:29:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2563


I'm thinking about basing a campaign in Carmania, and naturally,
I've stumbled across the near total lack of decent information on
the Lunars.  They don't even provide a complete cult writeup for
the Seven Mothers any more...  So, my main questions are:

What is the "Carmanian Heresey of Malkionism," which apparently
everyone there practices?

What is the Cult of the Invisible Orlanth, and what benefits are
derived from its worship?  (I assume it is some kind of sorcerorous
worship of Orlanth)

What benefits are derived from Invisible God worship?  My assumption
is that "miracles" occasionally happen for the faithful.

Western society has four castes: Farmer, Knight, Noble, and Wizard.
Where do the priests of the Invisible God fit in?  Is this one of
the duties of a powerful sorceror, or is it a separate profession?

-steve


---------------------

From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (ngl28)
Subject: "COPYRIGHTS AND ENCYCLOPAEDIA
Message-ID: <5447*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=d400_C=de_@MHS>
Date: 6 Dec 93 14:01:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2565

From: ROBERTSON@delphi.intel.com (Roderick Robertson, SC1-5, x52936)
Subject: Index to Glorantha
Date: 5 Dec 93 17:42:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2560

Joerg and the Glorantha Encyclopedia,

  An Encyclopedia is an enormous task, what I have been working on is 
an Index to published material. I've only done Dorastor, Sun County, 
Shadows, and am halfway through the Glorantha Box. So far I'm up to 78 
pages...

   Another benefit of an Index is that there are (to the best of my 
knowledge) no copyright problems, since the work is not quoting the 
original material. 

  I'd be willing to add my Index to Joerg's work, certainly.
Heck, Most of it would not need to be translated to German! (Unless 
the German edition has different Gloranthan Names...)


Roderick Robertson
Robertson@Delphi.intel.com

---------------------

From: J.Ditton@vme.glasgow.ac.uk
Subject: Humakti, Kolating, etc.
Message-ID: <_6_Dec_93_14:47:32_A10060@UK.AC.GLA.VME>
Date: 6 Dec 93 14:47:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2566

Hello from Sam
--------------
 
* Humakti swords.. Arrgh! Blush! etc. I had forgotten about sword breaking
  at Humakti funerals. I guess it shows that the last humakti we had in
  our campaign was 7 or 8 years ago. I'll need to rethink this. Perhaps
  it was just his spare sword. Or his *bronze* sword? I know that he was
  killed by the Orleving clan (curse them and their stinking Malani brothers)
  as his son rolled 18 for a Hate.
 
* Kolating.. There are many things that a shaman could provide that you
  (you young Orlanthi) would not be able to get from a priest or priestess.
  A white lady might heal you or cure your disease but she wouldn't curse
  anyone for you. A priest *could* divine the sex of your baby although
  they almost certainly wouldn't unless you were very important but they
  certainly wouldn't interfere with it. A shaman might. An abortion?
  Try getting one of those at a Chalana Arroy temple. A lucky charm?
  A rat repellent? Your husband has lost interest and the nearest Ulerian
  temple is two days ride from here?... I see shaman as being totally
  apart from the general structure of Orlanthi society and able to
  dabble (successfuly or not) in all sorts of wierdo stuff. What the
  Shaman do for themselves is a different matter but their bread and butter
  would be all the mundane stuff an organised temple has little time for
  along with the nastier things that they certainly wouldn't get involved
  in. I don't think this neccesarily fits in with the formal RQ definition
  of Shaman, but then what does that matter ;^)
 
* Varmandi - Coming along fine. First game on wednesday 8th. Wish me luck.
  I'm just off to finish writing the player handouts.. I now wish I had
  chosen a blank tribe to create as I have put so much work into it.
  Oh well..
 
* Sandy & d6 game. Ah that's the game! I remembered that someone(s) connected
  to RQ had written one of the d6 games. I *thought* it was Star Wars...
  One of us do have a copy of Ghostbusters somewhere. I must go look at it
  again.. I suppose they *could* have thought of it themselves - I did!
  *honest*.. And I was mightily peeved when I saw yours.. ;-)
 
Cheers,
Sam. x
Not Scotland but Sartar

---------------------

From: staats@MIT.EDU
Subject: Foresooth!  The future is seen!  ;-)
Message-ID: <9312061640.AA18892@milanese.MIT.EDU>
Date: 6 Dec 93 16:40:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2567

Greetings!

	Just wanted to add my small bit to the on-going discussion of 
predicting the future.  It does not seem like a contradiction that the
gods/desses could see the future somewhat.  They have access to far more
information than mere mortals do, and they have literally "god-like" wisdom and
intelligence.  So, the ability to see a bit into the future may be just figuring
out what is going to happen based on the current "state of the world", but
the gods also cannot control or predict the actions of other godlike beings. 
So, the farther from the current point you would try to foresee, the less
accurate the information would be.

	Reference time travel...time travel is a wonderful concept, as long as
the GM can prevent campaign destroying alterations to his/her milieu.  There was
a book called "The Man Who Folded Himself" (can't remember the author) that
presented the view that travelling back through time allowed one to alter the
future, but it did *not* alter it for the future you came from.  Time travel was
a one-way ticket to another dimension.  You continue to time travel and change
events, but each time you would be placing yourself in the new universe where
those particular events you caused to transpire had actually happened.  The time
traveller was a relic of the origional dimension that he or she came from. 
HeroQuesting is a great way of handling time travel to the gods age.  It is
difficult to do a HeroQuest, and the results are limited in scope.  So, the
players can affect the campaign, but they cannot "destroy the campaign to save
it."  (Bravo to whoever developed the original concept.)

	Must be off!

	Hope this was of interest.

	In service,

	Rich

---------------------

From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris)
Subject: Net RQ/Glorantha Encyclopedia
Message-ID: <199312061725.AA29149@batman.b11.ingr.com>
Date: 6 Dec 93 17:25:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2568


  In regard to the discussion of the RQ Encyclopedia, I would also like
  to throw in my support.  I do share some of Nick's misgivings that it
  could serve as a fascist monolith, but perhaps if we include as a preface
  the statement that, like Greg, everything in it is wrong, we can lessen
  the hazard.  And, surely if we include statements that the contents are
  copyright Stafford, etc, then there will be no problems on that score,
  n'est pas?

  Several people have proposed starting points.  I would like to point out
  that there is already a RQ Digest start on this; Volume Six Number Seven
  consisted of "A Visitor's Guide to Glorantha" by Mark Holsworth, Peter
  Loft, and Michael O'Brien.  I took this myself and augmented it for use
  in my game; I think it would make an excellent starting core for the
  work being proposed.  It is, as they say, pre-Elder Secrets, so it would
  need to be updated, but a work of the magnitude proposed will need updates
  whenever anything official is published.

  So, what say Henk.  Should this be sent out again, you think?  Or maybe we
  could have a secondary list for work on the "Encyclopedia Glorantha"?  It
  seems to have a good deal of support on the daily, but I could see a
  tremendous increase in discussion once work gets started on it.

  BTW, I really liked David Dunham's "What My Father Told Me" for the
  Grazers.  I'd like to see a lot more of these as well.
-------
  Boris
-------

---------------------

From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (Thom Baguley)
Subject: Humakti Swords ...
Message-ID: <9312061731.AA26781@Sun.COM>
Date: 6 Dec 93 17:30:36 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2569

>From: carlf@panix.com (Carl Fink)
>Subject: Swords and Slimes and everything nice

>J.Ditton@vme.glasgow.ac.uk writes:

>>I take it that what was said about Humakti swords being taken to the
>>afterlife doesn't apply to enchantments and matrices ie Bladesharp.
>>These stay behind with the physical weapon. Yes? I have a warrior's
>>son who may be in line to inherit his father's sword and I am
>>assuming it will keep the spell matix...
>>Cheers! Sam x.

>  Except that the Humakti funeral rite involves breaking the 
>warrior's sword and leaving it on his grave . . . .

This worried me too. However, most Humakti have at least two swords (a show
sword and a working sword). My Sword of Humakt has maybe a dozen or more (she
is averse to leaving the swords of vanquished foes to rust or selling them for
profit). Her iron broadsword would go back to the temple armoury and her bronze
greatsword would be broken over her grave.

Thom

---------------------

From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9312061806.AA15969@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 6 Dec 93 06:06:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2570

John Medway asks:

>DOOM! ?
My current computer project. I won't go into it except to say that it  
has nothing at all to do with RuneQuest. 


>Are you always sure from where a *successful* spell came? 

I always play that spells have a sensory aspect to them when cast.  
Ranged spells are generally both audible and visible (disruption like  
a beam of light flashing to the target, and a "snapping" sound,  
frex). In this way, I don't have to worry about "invisible" spells  
being cast. "Private" spells, like casting healing on yourself, might  
be another matter, but I've always played that casting a Heal on  
oneself is one of the more secretive spells, but still obvious if  
someone is watching for it. 


Certain spells specially intended to be invisible violate this  
general rule, but playing this way has two benefits. First, battles  
are more spectacular, with balls o' light and sparks everywhere.  
Second, it greatly simplifies GMing. 


>Hmm, maybe this is connected with the Lunars ruining the fertility  
>of the lands of Peloria. Maybe it's too much artificial fertilizer,  
>and too many pesticides?
The Lunar destruction of the farm environment is weather-based. 


Dave Dunham has a lengthy "What the Grazers' Know" section:

Looks good to me. I didn't note any reference to one of the major  
Grazer activities in modern Sartar, which is guiding merchants going  
to the Holy Country and charging them for the privilege. Also keeping  
the roads in bad repair so the Grazelander services are necessary. 


I said:
>>The Closing generally only took effect if you went out of sight of
>>land.

Graeme Lindsell replies
> I'm suprised there wasn't more coastal trade along the coasts of
>Glorantha and Pameltela then. You can sail a long way without
>going out of site of land. Perhaps it was the fear of the sea which 

>stopped them

There WAS coastal trade along said coasts. Unfortunately, when you're  
traveling along treacherous coasts, you generally need to stop at  
night, because you might get hung up. The big problem with lotsa  
coastal trade is that there existed treacherous waters between each  
big trading complex and the next one, so travel was slow, and there  
were no ports to stop at, and sometimes the Closing came close  
inland. 


For example: Between Fethlon and Kralorela are raw jungle coasts and  
islands. Dangerous. Then, as you move further along the coast towards  
Maniria, you encounter the bug-infested swamps along the Chaos  
Wastes, in which no human dwells. These two obstacles basically  
prevented all contact between the East and everyone else. 


Western Maniria is mostly uncivilized forest, but the real problem is  
the sunken land of Slontos, teaming with Second Age horrors. The  
rocky coast here, too, is inhabited by evil pig-people who see all  
sailors as harbingers of evil and kill them on sight (this is based  
on a memory of the destruction of Slontos). 


Then, when we get to Tanisor, the shattered Seshnela peninsula is  
haunted by bad things that discourage travel. Such as the dread  
Luathelan pirate ship that arrived during the Closing. There's not  
many good ports in Arolanit, only grumpy Brithini who don't welcome  
outsiders.

In Pamaltela, coastal travel continued through most of the Closing --  
the Maslo Sea wasn't affected, so Onlaks and Enkloso kept ships and  
were ready for the Opening in a big way. Fonrit also engaged in some  
trade with Vralos. But the jungles of Laskal and the deadly Kimos  
Peninsula kept east-west trade from prospering. 

---------------------

From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (Thom Baguley)
Subject: Sailing ...
Message-ID: <9312061816.AA07159@Sun.COM>
Date: 6 Dec 93 18:15:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2571

>Sandy Petersen writes:
>>The Closing generally only took effect if you went out of sight of
>>land.

> I'm suprised there wasn't more coastal trade along the coasts of
>Glorantha and Pameltela then. You can sail a long way without
>going out of site of land. Perhaps it was the fear of the sea which 
>stopped them

> Graeme Lindsell a.k.a Graeme.Lindsell@anu.edu.au

Some coasts are probably just very, very dangerous. Piracy, drifting sandbanks
... and of course reefs (especially around Pamaltela). Coastal navigation would
be with smaller ships, making trade less profitable.

Thom

---------------------

From: henkl@yelm (Henk Langeveld - Sun Nederland)
Subject: Re: The man who folded himself - time travel vs hero quest
Message-ID: <9312062306.AA24587@yelm.Holland.Sun.COM>
Date: 7 Dec 93 01:06:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2572

Rich Staats writes:

>Greetings!

> There was a book called "The Man Who Folded Himself" (can't remember
	by David Gerrold

> the author) that presented the view that travelling back through time
> allowed one to alter the future, but it did *not* alter it for the
> future you came from.  Time travel was a one-way ticket to another
> dimension.  

The most satisfying book on the theme I have ever read.
It made the whole concept of time travel consistant just
by imposing this one simple rule: If you change the past,
you spawn a new thread in history, branching off from the
point in time where the change was introduced.
Paradox? What paradox?  The two realities co-exist, although
the time traveller will not be able to return to that 
reality he came from.

And indeed do I see a parallel with heroquesting.   
If we take the model of the bundle of fibers, a
time traveler will travel back along the fiber he
currently is on, making a change which results in
that particular fiber splitting.  He then travels
back to the future along that new fiber to his
era of origin, which may or may be not recognisable.

Well, we all agree :-) that time travel is not possible
in Glorantha, so I will not continue this thread.  There's
no need!  In Glorantha, we don't need time travelers to
change reality, instead we have people jumping out into the
hero-plane, messing around with a couple of threads of
history/reality and jumping back into time.

--
Henk	|	Henk.Langeveld@Sun.COM - Disclaimer: I don't speak for Sun.
oK[]	|	My first law of computing: "NEVER make assumptions"

---------------------

From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: No Fate
Message-ID: <9312061840.AA16534@condor>
Date: 6 Dec 93 18:40:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2573

___________
John Medway wrote:
>>>  GG>re: Colin Watson's model of God-time as perpendicular planes - Not So !
>>>  GG>Anyway, you can't compare the two as they aren't of similar qualities.
>>>  
>>CW>They only seem different because we're not used to more than one temporal
>>CW>dimension. Just like a fourth spatial dimension would seem bizarre. I think
>>CW>comparing GodTime and RealTime is just like comparing length with width.
> 
>But without common units, or ability to convert between measurements of length
>and width, you can't compare the two.

Quite. But they are *qualitatively* similar.

_______________
Steven E Barnes wrote:
>>DC>The way I see it, your god knows these things about you, and not much
>>DC>else:
>>DC>* (roughly) how often you call upon him for rune magic
>>
>CW>Exactly how often you will ever call on him for rune magic for your
>CW>whole existance (even for the Time you haven't experienced yet).
>
>Even the gods are limited by time.  This is quite clear, at least
>in the RQ2 material.  He simply cannot know future events, even
>ones relating to his worshippers.

This is the problem with interactions between RealTime and GodTime:
I assume diviners will hope to contact their deities "late on" in GodTime,
ie. towards the end of GodTime (whatever *that* means) because this is
when the god will know most stuff. He will have had all his GodTime
experiences etc. and he will also have received all the worship/sacrifice
from mortals that he's likely ever to receive. This includes all the times you
will sacrifice to him for rune magic. To him in GodTime these are *past
events*. In RealTime they are *future events*, but in GodTime they have passed
already so the god is not violating the compromise.
That's the problem.
RealTime & GodTime are meant to be seperate temporal realities, but when you
go interacting with a diety you create events which occur in both times.
Only actions which happen concurrently in RealTime & GodTime have this problem
(this includes sacrifices for Divine Magic, and also Divine Intervention).
I don't like it, but that's how it seems to me.

>This also creates the problem
>of foreknowledge for the GM.  By your interpretation, I can ask my 
>god how much magic I have / will cast for him for all Time.  What
>happens if the character then dies the next game?  (I suppose you
>can weasel out of it by claiming the existance of multiple
>incarnations... still, the correct sequence of questions and events
>could create a paradox.)

Good point. There are many problems with this setup. The way I see it is that
the future of Glorantha is not fixed any more than it's past is. The past
can be changed by HeroQuests; and so can the future. The answers which a
god gives you can be absolutey True one day but rendered invalid the next.
So what little your God can tell you about the "future" is about as useful
as what he can tell you about the past: ie. it's definitely True now,
probably True tomorrow too, but it's liable to change without warning sooner
or later.
All divinations should carry a disclaimer. ;-)

>
>This also creates the problem that if my character was, or ever
>will be a Rune Lord, why can't I ask for divine intervention now?

Now that's a damn good question.
Conversely, just because I was a Rune Lord yesterday, why should I be
considered a Rune Lord today?
This is the problem with Gods who live in a separate time.

>When dealing with a diety, you are always contacting him at a fixed
>time frame.

Yes, and like I said earlier, diviners would prefer this to be as late 
in GodTime as possible. (But do they get any choice?).

>In the games our GM runs, we have met dieties from a time
>before we started worshiping him.

Hmm, this sounds like your GodTime is parallel to RealTime rather than
perpendicular. ie. Each point in your GodTime maps to a point in RealTime;
which means that GodTime and RealTime are actually the same temporal
dimension (separated spatially I suppose). This way you can say whether
a RealTime event happened before or after a GodTime event.
I prefer to think that GodTime and RealTime are truly separate temporal
dimensions ie. they are perpendicular. In this case you *can't say* whether
a RealTime event (eg. you joining a cult) occurs before or after a
GodTime event (eg. you meeting your god on the GodPlane). But it does throw
up an awful lot of strange phenomena which seem to conflict with the
RQ rules. :-(

>Using this interpretation, divination contacts the diety
>at a fixed time time reference, which we generally refer to as "now".
>This is important, by the way, since a god such as Nysalor cannot be
>contacted thru worship or Divination, since he is dead.  You cannot
>contact Nysalor, except thru heroquests.  By your interpretation,
>the current state of a diety is irrelevant, since you are contacting
>him in Godtime (clearly, Arkat didn't remove Gbaji from all Time,
>since he can be found on the Heroplane).

Ahh... I wasn't aware of the status of Nysalor.
If this is the case (ie. you really can't call for divination from him
even though he is only dead in RealTime, but still exists in GodTime) then
this kinda suggests that my theory about divination letting you perceive
GodTime is, in fact, a load of old bollocks. Shame, I liked it.

Anyway, how do you know that Divination to Nysalor won't work, unless you try?

____________
Geoff Gunner's new angle was:

>Why not say a heroquest is making God-time Immanent (ie. *now*).

Yes indeed. I imagine that HeroQuesting shifts the Hero's perception and
freewill so that he is aware of GodTime and capable of effecting changes in it.
At the same time his will & perception in RealTime become restricted (like
the Gods'). I reckon all mortals exist in GodTime concurrently with RealTime
but are normally unaware of it and incapable of affecting it.

[...and later...]
>To the observer inside time, it appears that
>this has always been the case; the observer outside of time can see that
>this new reality only occurs from a certain point along the tapestry of time.

But who can observe from outside time?

___
CW.