Bell Digest v940126p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 26 Jan 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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Date: 24 Jan 94 22:21:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2891

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From: MAB@SAVAX750.RUTHERFORD.AC.UK (Mystic Musk Ox)
Subject: cult info for ftp'ing
Message-ID: <9401251243.AA20936@Sun.COM>
Date: 25 Jan 94 09:45:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2893

>Quite a while ago someone on the mail list posted a whole lot of cult
>information to a ftp site. At the time I did not have full internet access so
>I didn't pay much attention. Now that I do have access can someone please
>e-mail me the ftp site and the file name(s). Thanks!!


I would also like to see this information! I know of the stuff on (Hippoi, Gyzar, Golden Bow)



Subject: Mostai & Malkioni
Message-ID: <9401251244.AB20936@Sun.COM>
Date: 25 Jan 94 10:22:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2894

Mostali are not short bearded Malkioni!

Recently people have been asking whether there are similarities between 
Mostali and Malkioni society.  Now it is easy to understand why this 
question is asked as to an outside observer this appears to be the case.  
However, when they are examined in detail the two societies are seen to 
be profoundly different.  Malkioni force people into a rigid caste 
structure by virtue of who their parents were without any regard for 
their talents or desires.  Dwarfs are manufactured for a specific caste 
and optimised to carry out its functions.  Dwarfs are also programmed 
to get their maximum enjoyment when successfully carrying out and 
completing their castes work.  Thus Mostali society is better ordered 
with less internal friction that the forced Malkioni construct which 
may well be a poor imitation of the true harmony of Mostali society.  

The God Learners believed that Mostali use sorcery and they have spread 
that belief throughout Glorantha.  The Mostali have not challenged this 
view as it is advantageous for the other races to be keep misinformed.  
True Mostali use a complicated system of mechanics which appears to the 
ignorant outsider to be similar to sorcery, however mechanics concentrates 
more on preservation and repair than on long range destructive effects.  
In short mechanics is strongly tied to the Stasis Rune where as Sorcery 
is tied to the Law rune.  While the functions of these runes may have 
been confused by the God Learners even the most simple Orlanthi carl knows 
that Stasis is the natural preservation of order and Law is a rigid set of 
rules which forces people to conform.  This is illustrated in the different 
runes associated with Lhankor Mhy (sometimes said to be associated with 
Mostal) in different places.  In Dragon Pass he is associated with Stasis 
and Truth whereas in the West he is associated with Stasis and Law.  

Of course, the above only covers true (non-apostate, non-heretic) Mostali 
and not those who have strayed from there appointed work-tasks.  These 
unfortunates are the result of corrupted programming caused by Chaos and 
are to be pitied and tollerated, until the World Machine is repaired and 
they can be reprogrammed in the absence of the friction which has caused 
their imperfect condition.  Due to their malfunctions these defective 
dwarfs are unable to use Mechanics and so most of them resort to using 
sorcery as it is the most similar magic to that which they are unable 
to utilize.  Of course, the fact that apostate and heretic dwarfs use 
sorcery reinforces the views of the ignorant and further serves to conceal 
the true natural of Mostali magic.  



From: (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Jan 94 05:10:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2895

re: Gloranthan names

Unlike many world-makers (M.A.R. Barker, J.R.R. Tolkien, etc.),  
Greg's interest has never been in linguistics, and he has no lengthy  
tedious dictionaries of Aldryami, or Darktongue. Basically, he comes  
up with names as he sees fit, in a fairly disorganized fashion. I've  
noticed a tendency for chaos names to be clumsy and hard to  
pronounce, and troll names tend to be alliterative, but I think  
Greg's "technique" is to see if a name sounds "right" to him. When  
working on the all-Gloranthan box (which magically transformed itself  
into the all-Genertela box, leaving the Seas and Pamaltela for later  
-- I hope), I tried to organize as many names as possible into like  
groups. But 'twas impossible for most of Genertela, for which I blame  
the God-Learner influence. 

someone (ngl?) writes: 

>Only problem with ignite without special backup is that you get shot  
>twice before these guys come into range. More often if they just  
>stay outside standard magic and thrown missile range...

Remember that practitioners of Lunar Magic get an enhanced range on  
their spirit magic -- don't think they don't use it. 

>No Fantasy or pre-firearms warrior would ever have thought of  
>covering an advance or retreat with small missile fire (bows,  

Looky here -- I can't speak for Fantasy warriors -- they have little  
reference to the real world. A D&D warrior easily takes on ten times  
his number of less-skilled opponents and falls 30 meters without  
crippling injury. Didn't we turn to RQ to avoid this kind of  
unrealistic crapola? Pre-firearms warriors used missiles to cover  
advances and retreats all the time -- they just did it in a different  
manner. The Romans always flung their pila before charging -- the  
defenders were thus broken up and confused for just a second, then  
the Romans hit 'em. In the same way, the Vikings used thrown axes  
before charging, and the Mongols used missile fire to make opponents  
spread out, thinning their ranks before the lancers charged. 

The Crimean War example was perhaps not the best, because it was  
mostly a siege -- at which missile expenditure/hit-bad-guys ratios  
skyrocket. (During the Civil War, it didn't take any 5000 shots to  
hit your target -- more like 100). 

>the desired result is not the kill, but the temporary crippling of 

>the opponent, to use as slaves or sacrifices or to hold for ransom 


A "temporarily crippled" opponent generally died in an ancient  
battle. The killed/wounded ratio was the reverse of the modern one,  
except when fighting purely bow-armed foes. (The U.S. Cavalry in the  
Indian Wars found that 1 in 14 men wounded by arrows died, as I  
recall. Also, most fatalities were guys hit by multiple arrows.) 

But the majority of ancient battles were fought to kill the enemy,  
NOT to take slaves. The war might have been to gain slaves or  
conquests -- but the battles are still designed to beat the foe in  
the best manner known. Think of the wars of the Assyrians, the  
Byzantines, the Punic Wars, Tamerlane's dreadful invasion of Delhi --  
they weren't half-assed attempts to cripple guys, but all-out  
destruction on a scale rarely reached even in modern war. The  
Athens-Sparta wars weren't fought for prisoners, but for complex  
political reasons. I feel that the Aztec Flower Wars are quite an  
exceptional development in the history of warfare. 

>Most actual killing occurred when the battle was decided.

It is true that most killing occurred when the battle was already  
decided, but the purposeful killing -- the killing that mattered to  
the battle's outcome -- occurred when it was being fought. Once the  
important killing was won or lost, the huge bag of guys you got to  
kill in the retreat was a bonus -- your reward for winning the  

>I like to think of them as similar to Scythian or Persian knights,  
>quite heavily armored and equipped with sabres, lances ... as well.

I think of them as Mongols, Huns, or Scythians. Not so much Persians.  
While I'm sure there's plenty of lancers amongst the Pentans, they  
aren't jacks of all trades. Though an archer might have a spear or  
sword as back-up, he's still mainly an archer. 

>[re: the Market spell] There is no damage mentioned,

The rules say, "identical to a Warding 1 in most respects". If you  
read the Travels of Biturian Varosh it's clear that the Market spell  
can hurt or kill you, if lots are stacked together with Create Great  
Market. I know that I and Greg have always played that it does  
damage, but obviously every campaign is privileged to make its own  
decisions about spell interpretation. 

>I like to think that 100 part time worshippers produce as much mana  
>as the sacrifice of one point of permanent POW, if rules values are  

I'm sold. Until my players try to abuse this rule. 

>The only way the horse retained anything of fire is its temperament, 

>even according to the Hippoi myth.

I, on the other hand, think that the horse is still the Beast of  
Fire, just as the Bull is the Beast of Air, and the Pig the Beast of  
Earth. So there. Nyah. 

>>I have read a text (I think in Troll Pak) which stated that the 1st  

>>Age Theyalans overthrew the horse nomads of Peloria with the help  
>>of... Ralian non-Sun-worshipping horse riders. These latter can  
>>only be the Galanini.

>There can be plenty of horse-riding non-Sun worshipers. Tarsh exiles  

>ride horses. Malkioni ride horses. 

>>I was inaccurate again: I meant horse nomads.

Yes, but did the Trollpak text refer to nomads or just riders?  
There's as yet no evidence that the Galanini are non-Sun-Worshipping.  
In my own campaign, they honor and respect the Sun and related cults,  
but most of them worship Galan, Hyalor, or Hunter. 

Okay. Here's my reasons for believing that the Praxians are not  
descendents of Hsunchen. 

1) No Hsunchen eat their cult animals. They are kin, not prey.

2) Hsunchen magic turns you into your animal. No Praxian magic even  
remotely resembles this. 

3) Ancestor Worship is NOT the same as Hsunchen worship, and in fact  
is quite different in both form and beliefs. 

4) Hsunchen believe that they are descendents of their animals. The  
Praxians very clearly are not. They do provide worship to an  
Ancestress of their Herds, but it is to ensure the herds' safety and  
prosperity -- propitiatory worship. 

5) Hsunchen is a religion, not a racial type. IF (and only IF) the  
Praxians were once Hsunchen way back before the Gods War, they are  
certainly no longer such in any degree. No Hsunchen would recognize  
them as co-religionists. 

6) I deny the force of some of your examples. The Hsunchen venerate  
local forces of nature, as do the Praxians. But so does everyone  
else, from the Theyalans to the Oslir River people. 

	The Praxians have the Paps. The Basmoli have Hrelar Amali.  
The trolls have a Castle of Lead. Are they Hsunchen?

So, how'd I do? Did I penetrate the flame-proof suit, or were my  
arguments too specious?

>I really have problems with the reasons why Eiritha would not allow  
>horses in Prax. 

Well, obviously it's not really Eiritha who's failing to allow horses  
in Prax, since the Pent nomads worship Eiritha, and they ride   
horses. However, Eiritha is used by the Pentans only to benefit their  
cattle herds, not their horses. 

>The Pamaltelan urban societies are either coastal, i.e. God Learner  
>tainted, or extinct, stemming from the Artmali Empire. (Fonrit  
>actually qualifies for both.) These pre-darkness Lunars had a  
>culture little is published about. The Doraddi have only recently  
>developed city-like structures, the wagon cities of the Kresh.

This is true, but may be a tiny bit misleading for those who are not  
as versed in Pamaltelan history. Pamaltelan cities stem from several  
sources. The cities of Umathela and Fonrit were founded in the God  
Time, but were taken over by God Learners in the Second Age. The  
cities along the coasts of Elamle and Onlaks mostly come from the  
Second or Third Age, but were originally not God Learner (though they  
traded with them). A whole lot of cities were founded in the interior  
of the Doraddi lands during the Second Age -- this was the time of  
the Six-Legged Empire. 

Note that the Doraddi do NOT regard themselves as not-yet-urban  
primitives. They point out that in the Godtime, the Artmali Empire  
ruled their land. In the Second Age, the Six-Legged Empire ruled  
their land. They claim that civilization is the original state of  
mankind but is bad for the soul. They have chosen to go on to the  
next stage of development -- the happy nomad (i.e., Noble Red Man  
type stuff). They point out that in the Golden Age, everything was  
static and dull -- and civilized. Basically, they look at the  
development of mankind backwards from the common Genertelan view.  
Those few Pamaltelans that know a little about Genertela also point  
out that the same cultural development works there -- look at the  
Prax nomads, advanced now far "beyond" the civilized Golden Folk. 

The "wagon cities" of the Kresh are temporary constructs that  
dissolve after a season or so, to reform in a new place. 

re: Malkioni and Mostali

I'd like to request that everyone using the word "Malkioni" when they  
really mean "Brithini" shape up! The Malkioni aren't opposed to  
reproduction, only the Brithini. The Malkioni aren't soulless, only  
the Brithini. The Malkioni aren't big jerks, only the Brithini. 

Sandy Petersen 


From: (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: Ferguson seeks a city
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Jan 94 18:09:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2896

Alex Fergeson:

It seems to me that you are probably lacking the Genertela Book. If
so, thos won't be much help. 
If you do have it, then look at the description of Red Fish City. it
is up in the northwestern section of the empire, near Carmania, I
think. I don't have my books here right now, so I can't check.

In any case, I believe it was founded by the Conquering Daughter, or
one of the Inspirations. She did it specifically to show the snotty
Dara Happans that a good metropolis didn't have to be organized along
solar lines. The city prospered, but has become Solarized anyway.
However, this suntan is a later addition to the city, rather than a
ancient fact burned into the psyches of the founders.

It also sounds to me like a copy of the Glorious Reascent of Yelm
would be very handy for you. Call the Wizard's Attic for how to get
one, or else the Chaosium. If you have $25 to spare, that is.

Mike Dawson >|<


From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@HOBBES.CCA.CR.ROCKWELL.COM (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Looking for Information
Date: 25 Jan 94 23:22:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2897


I'm a RuneQuestor from way back, but due to a large lack of 1) time 
(theatre, work, theatre work) and 2) lack of players with 
imaginations, I haven't played for a while.

Suddenly, I discover that the game is alive and well!  I'd thought it 
dead, since my local game shops don't seem to carry RuneQuest 

Can I get a list of who *does* carry RQ, or at least a mail order 
source?  I'd like to get caught up.  (I'm only current through the 
addition of sorcery...)


 ___                                                              __
/__/|__          Scott Haney, Insight Industries               __/_/|  
|__|/_/|__   Group Leader, AFDS 770 Functional Test Team     _/_|__||  
|_|___|/_/|__    __/_|____||  
|___|____|/_/|__                                       __/_|____|__||  
         Laying the foundations of the world's best avionics


From: (Carl Fink)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 25 Jan 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <>
Date: 25 Jan 94 15:37:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2898

Someone who doesn't sign his/her messages writes about similarities
between Hsunchen and Praxians:

R>The Hsunchen worship the Hunter as main source of meat.
 >Praxians worship Waha for slain herd beasts, Hunter for slain game.

  You are defining "worshipping a source of food" as a sign of Hsunchen
ancestry?  So worshipping Ernalda or the Barley Mother is also a sign of
beast-man ways?

R>The Hsunchen propitiate or venere predominant local forces of nature.
 >The Praxians propitiate Storm Bull, Gagarth, and they worship Storm Bull,
 >Zola Fel...

  Everyone except the Brithini and their ilk worships local nature

R>The Hsunchen worship a plethora of local spirits, summoned by the shamans
 >at holy places.
 >The Praxians worship a plethora of local spirits, summoned by the shamans
 >at the oasis altars in Prax. (e.g. Frog Woman)

  Every primitive culture does this.  Are all primitives Hsunchen?

R>Both practice ancestor worship to some extent.

  So do the Kralori, the Orlanthi, the fact, most
cultures.  Are trolls Hsunchen?

R>Both consider outsiders as less than human.

  No, they don't.

R>Telmori consider their wolves as full members of their tribe. Praxians
 >don't do so, since Waha's covenant made the herd beasts unintelligent.

  "They're different, so that proves they're the same!"

R>Praxians were active participants in the Gods War.
 >OK, we lack reports about the Hsunchen activities then. Given the
 >Basmoli Empire in Dawn Age Tanisor, they did, too.

  *Everyone* was an active participant in the Gods War.  Haven't you
been intiated into the I Fought We Won mystery?

R>The Praxians have a solid holy place in the Paps. (They inherited it from
 >the Golden Age people).
 >The Basmoli erected Hrelar Amali. (They developed this themselves, or had
 >Godtime experience with this. They built it themselves.)

  Everyone including the baboons had a big city during the God Time.

R>The Praxians worshipped a whole pantheon in Godtime. These gods are dead
 >According to GL taxonomy, there exists a whole pantheon of beast ancestors
 >who died during Godtime. Plus the Hsunchen acknowledge the local earth
 >powers (proto-Grain goddesses, like Balazar Vyrope, or the goddess' aspects
 >in tRathorell;a, Ramalia, etc.

  Everyone acknowledges local earth powers except deliberate atheists
like the Brithini.  So?

R>Now where except in the covenant introduced because of the special power
 >depletion in the Praxian chapparal do you see the great difference? Master
 >Hunters and Khans are not that different.

  All Rune Lords would have similarities.  So?

 >...And in the
 >Pavis Common Knowledge booklet there is this picture in the wastes, where
 >lots of beasts (including the zebra, a beast only quite recently adopted into
 >the covenant) paid homage to Genert, a very conscious and intelligent act.

  Zebras existed in Prax in Genert's time.  They were small and useless
to men, but they existed.  The founder of the Zebra tribe used
heroquesting to create larger rideable zebras.

R>I really have problems with the reasons why Eiritha would not allow horses
 >in Prax. She did so all the time between the Battles of Necklace Horse and
 >Alavan Argay, and ever since Derek Pol Joni retrieved the Black Net, the
 >horses are back in Prax, and thrive.

  Accepted, or was unable to expel?

R>Is this all beast rider propaganda? The story about Joraz Kyrem's creation
 >of the War Zebras mentions psychological reasons only.