From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 27 Jan 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway)
Subject: Stirrups, Dara Happa and Humakt
Message-ID: <9401260851.AA11474@hp0.zycor.lgc.com>
Date: 26 Jan 94 08:51:51 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2902
Though not in the same sentence.
-----------------------
Joerg in X-RQ-ID: 2885
>>
>> Stirrups were an invention of the great plains, and the Praxian lancers
>> need them as much as the horse nomads'. (Who was the hero who introduced
>> them?)
A very good question, which prompts one of my own:
Do they have stirrups? Who does have stirrups?
This only really matters for those using swinging weapons, as stirrups did
little for the lancer ( especially light ones ) and bowmen.
Let's see, who = ( Lunars, Fronelans, Seshnelans, Zebra Riders!, ... ),
or so the art in WoG implies. Others?
>> Sorry if my insistence on Celtic Orlanthi or other parallels lead to the
>> impression the cultures are parallels. They aren't, only some people like
>> Nick Brooke and me find it convenient to picture certain traits in analogs.
It's a useful tool, but we need to be careful with it. If everything is
described w.r.t. an earthly analog, we are losing a good deal of the flavor
of Glorantha. That's why I usually try to present each facet of a culture
separately, if using analogs. ( Hence insistence on answers more than "Like
the Egyptians" - sorry Nick ).
-----------------------------------
alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk in X-RQ-ID: 2886
>>
>> Indeed. But they aren't all originally Solar, no? I'm looking for one
>> in which Solar and Lunar aspect coexist, and is either detailed to some
According to The GLorious Reascent of Yelm ( Solar mythology - if you couldn't
guess ), the original 10 cities of Dara Happa were quite Solar.
>> > Yelmalio, of course, is not a central Pelorian cult, but is only a
>>
>> Exactly. But did someone mention a Pelorian `analogue'? I thought they
>> did.
Antirius has been accused of being a Dara Happan analog of Yelmalio.
There *are* some myth patterns in common, but there are as certainly
many which are not.
>> > Yelorna (specialized).
>>
>> Does this exist at all in Peloria? I'd have thought hardly at all, ties
>> with Yelmalio, and whatnot.
But ties with Pole Star, and the other Star captains make it make some
sense. It's not a big cult, by anyone's reckoning, but it does exist.
I believe I remember that there is/are (a) military unit(s) of Yelorna-
worshippers.
-----------------------------------
prharmaty@aol.com in X-RQ-ID: 2890
>>
>> I didn't feel there was enough disagreement about this at RQ Con. Perhaps I
>> have a different read on what makes a good Humakti. I'd felt an absolute
>> disregard for death is a prime requisite. Isn't it?
I missed this discussion at the Con, but there is one thing you may be
a bit off on. I don't think it's "disregard for death", but instead great
reverence for death, which is the Humakti hallmark.
As you went on to state, ( reworded ) when fated to die, die, when not, don't.
This doesn't mean that any of them look forward to death. It is the heaviest
*duty* of this already fairly heavily duty-bound cult.
Also don't forget that not every cult-member is really all that devout.
Doubtless there are some who joined because of peer, or other social
pressure.
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| john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 |
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From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Vormain colour-magic et al
Message-ID: <9401260929.AA12140@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 26 Jan 94 11:29:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2903
First
Thank you everybody who has supplied answers for my questions on
the far east of Glorantha.
Second
On Vormainian colour magic. It seems I'm not the only one interested.
Sandy P replies to Iza Young's question:
>a) Wait till my house is built and I can gather together my records,
>(b) make up your own, or (c) badger me until I try to put together a
>pathetic remnant of them from memory.
(a) might take some time? As I'm not going to use RQ rules in my
campaign I'll have do some (b) anyway. I don't want to 'badger' Sandy
unnecessarily but a rough guideline (c) of the colour-magic would be
greatly appreciated. Something on the line:
Green stands for ... and ..., used by the ... type people.
Blue stands for ...
etc
would do fine for me. Do I score any points for saying please more than
once? Please...
Third
RQ con sounds like a terrific event. I wonder if we'll ever have anything
like it here in the norteastern outskirts of the civilized world (Scandinavia).
/Nils W
---------------------
From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Daily.
Message-ID: <9401260949.AA10901@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 26 Jan 94 09:49:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2904
Mike Dawson:
> It seems to me that you are probably lacking the Genertela Book. If
> so, thos won't be much help.`
Nope. The Genertela books lacks information, though.
> If you do have it, then look at the description of Red Fish City. it
> is up in the northwestern section of the empire, near Carmania, I
> think. I don't have my books here right now, so I can't check.
It's in Dara Happa, it's Lunarised, but it's not originally Solar. But the
problem isn't finding a city which fits my very vague bill: it's finding out
either a) any existing data on it; or b) that _no_ data exists on it.
> It also sounds to me like a copy of the Glorious Reascent of Yelm
> would be very handy for you. Call the Wizard's Attic for how to get
> one, or else the Chaosium. If you have $25 to spare, that is.
What's this? The Chaosium Solar Monstrous Carbuncle is out? Is it brill?
Does it suxrox? Does it help with my Solar Ponderings?
Me. > "They believe that Orlanth _is_ the Invisible God."
Paul Reilly:
> My version of IO agrees with this: Orlanth is the Breath of the Creator. It
> was he who brought the revelations of Solace to Malkion and Joy to Hrestol.
Perhaps not inconsistent, but they seem like distinct viewpoints to me.
The Lunars recognise the Creator and Orlanth, after a fashion, but don't want
people to _worship_ them, for heavens sake. Perish the thought. Lunar
dogma distinguishes between `the Creator' and `the Invisible God', for one
thing, not to mention attempting to stamp out Orlanth worship entirely.
Personally, I'm not sure _anyone_ likes the IO lot, Lunars, Malkioni or
Orlanthi. And note that `ordinary' Orlanthi worship occurs in Carmania, too.
PR> We know that the Count of Worion encourages this cult among his
PR> knights; it seems to me that he would get stepped on by the Lunars
PR> if the cult did not at least pay lip service to the Lunar Way.
I'm here tempted to recall the maxim, "I don't have to be faster than the
Crimson Bat, just faster than you." The Empire has lots to worry about
at present without quibbling with a few heresies in Western Oronin.
Given the description of Invisible Orlanth as an `upstart' cult in _G:..._,
I'm tempted to beieve this isn't a cult seeking to be `integrated' into
the Lunar pantheon. But then again, if it's true that any sufficiently
large organisation contains completely contradictory opinions on any given
topic, maybe the cult is arguing about this even as we speak...
Carmania Trivia Question: why on earth is the cult of Mastakos a state-
sponsored cult for nobles?
PR> Yara Aranis:
PR> Remember that her mother is Gorgorma
Duh! The Demoness is Gorgorma! Now you all tell me. ;-/
Hence the answer to my question is a): she's worshipped by Pelorian peasants
when they're Being Oppressed, which certainly makes her an Enemy Diety of
the Pentans...
Another lot of Fire Worshippers:
The gods worshipped by the Teshnans are aspects/alter egos of the `standard'
solar pantheon, right? So what about Calyz? Is this an(other) aspect of
Lodril? Solf's Nice Twin, as it were? If so, it conjures up some interesting
Object Identity type questions. If not, who is he? A diety unknown elsewhere?
A Lowfires aggregate? And who on earth is Furalor?
Spot the Celt, or: Celtic factoids about Sartar.
Bagpipes. Woad. Some other stuff, in the `vaguely compatible' rather than
`highly distinctive', such as social organisation (i.e. Small kingdoms,
clans/tribes) cultural weapons, agriculture (hill farming). Not very similar
religious, other than being Storm worshippers, and the celtic countires being
Wet and Windy. ;-) They're much more Norse-like, if you ask me.
Alex Ferguson.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Prax in Flames
Message-ID:
Date: 26 Jan 94 11:26:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2905
I knew that messing with Prax would bring a lively response ;->
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2895
>someone (ngl?) writes:
That's me from my Unversity account. Tien bless X400! (and eat it...)
>Remember that practitioners of Lunar Magic get an enhanced range on
>their spirit magic -- don't think they don't use it.
How many illuminated Redlander phalangists do you expect to have in the
file? Illumination is a prerequisitive for getting Lunar Magic (joining
the Red Goddess directly), and we are told as well that the most Lunar
citizens don't.
>Okay. Here's my reasons for believing that the Praxians are not
>descendents of Hsunchen.
>1) No Hsunchen eat their cult animals. They are kin, not prey.
The Praxians wouldn't either, if they didn't have to. They prefer to eat
foreign herd beasts, anyway.
(This is somehow weakened by the fact that the Pure Horse Pentans
exclusively eat horse meat. But then I didn't compare them to Hsunchen.)
>2) Hsunchen magic turns you into your animal. No Praxian magic even
>remotely resembles this.
Fix/Release INT does the trick, don't you think?
If one did change into a herd beast, one would cross the border of the
Covenant and become eatable. A good reason to forget these spells, isn't it?
>3) Ancestor Worship is NOT the same as Hsunchen worship, and in fact
>is quite different in both form and beliefs.
Could you detail that, please? I take it that Hsunchen do worship their
ancestors along with their totem beast.
And don't Reindeer, Deer, Elk or Boar Hsunchen eat and hunt their totem
animals? Don't Sofali eat part of the eggs of their turtles? Ok, noone but
trolls or the Kralori would eat dog, wolf or lion.
>4) Hsunchen believe that they are descendents of their animals. The
>Praxians very clearly are not. They do provide worship to an
>Ancestress of their Herds, but it is to ensure the herds' safety and
>prosperity -- propitiatory worship.
To me, it looks like the praxians see their herds and themselves descended
from the same ancestors, but divided by the Covenant. According to the
genealogy chart in CoP p.31 the Ancestors of the People are the offspring
of the Protectresses and the Founders.
Also, Eiritha is listed as daughter of Hykim, and my bet is that Storm
Bull's mother is Mikyh, or one of her daughters, e.g. Lofak.
Perfect Hsunchen ancestry, isn't it?
>5) Hsunchen is a religion, not a racial type. IF (and only IF) the
>Praxians were once Hsunchen way back before the Gods War, they are
>certainly no longer such in any degree. No Hsunchen would recognize
>them as co-religionists.
I agree that no Hsunchen would recognize them. Nor would they the citzens
of Basim in Ralios, who are former Basmoli. Both they and the Praxians left
the Hsunchen way when accepting a variation of their lives, e.g. city life,
or Waha's covenant.
>6) I deny the force of some of your examples. The Hsunchen venerate
>local forces of nature, as do the Praxians. But so does everyone
>else, from the Theyalans to the Oslir River people.
Do they do so via their shamans?
At least they aren't different in these regards.
> The Praxians have the Paps. The Basmoli have Hrelar Amali.
>The trolls have a Castle of Lead. Are they Hsunchen?
Do the trolls practise Peaceful Cut? Are they related to any animal? (It
might actually be fun to meet a trollish group of insect Hsunchen, yes...)
>So, how'd I do? Did I penetrate the flame-proof suit, or were my
>arguments too specious?
Better than mine, some. Still, I need to be convinced.
>>I really have problems with the reasons why Eiritha would not allow
>>horses in Prax.
>Well, obviously it's not really Eiritha who's failing to allow horses
>in Prax, since the Pent nomads worship Eiritha, and they ride
>horses. However, Eiritha is used by the Pentans only to benefit their
>cattle herds, not their horses.
But horses can subside and thrive in Prax. Commonly spread theory/propaganda
suggests they can't.
Carl Fink in X-RQ-ID: 2898
>Someone who doesn't sign his/her messages writes about similarities
>between Hsunchen and Praxians:
See above. It was not out of fear!
>R>The Hsunchen worship the Hunter as main source of meat.
> >Praxians worship Waha for slain herd beasts, Hunter for slain game.
> You are defining "worshipping a source of food" as a sign of Hsunchen
>ancestry? So worshipping Ernalda or the Barley Mother is also a sign of
>beast-man ways?
If worshipped with Food Song, yes, if harvested en masse (e.g. with a
sickle or scythe) without directing a prayer to their source at that moment,
no. What is important is that the killer cares for the prey. Civilized
cultures like e.g. the Skanthi have lost this closeness to the prey and
don't qualify any more.
>R>The Hsunchen propitiate or venere predominant local forces of nature.
> >The Praxians propitiate Storm Bull, Gagarth, and they worship Storm Bull,
> >Zola Fel...
> Everyone except the Brithini and their ilk worships local nature
>forces.
Do the Easterners? How does that look like?
Do the Hrestoli and pure Rokari?
Ok, the theists and naturalists both do. I count the Praxians among the
naturalists (CoT definition).
>R>The Hsunchen worship a plethora of local spirits, summoned by the shamans
> >at holy places.
> >The Praxians worship a plethora of local spirits, summoned by the shamans
> >at the oasis altars in Prax. (e.g. Frog Woman)
> Every primitive culture does this. Are all primitives Hsunchen?
On Glorantha, I'm inclined to say yes for humans. As Sandy pointed out,
the Doraddi aren't really primitive, and that leaves the more primitive
Orlanthi who don't till the earth (degenerated, but not really Primitives
as per rules definition), the accepted Hsunchen Telmori, Basmoli etc., the
slightly doubtful Votanki from Balazar might be seen as Dog-Hsunchen with
a mite of civilization, and then there are the Praxians. My point.
>R>Both practice ancestor worship to some extent.
> So do the Kralori, the Orlanthi, the Pamaltelans...in fact, most
>cultures. Are trolls Hsunchen?
Do the above mentioned tie their lives to one specific sort of animal?
(If you mention Orlanthi cat familiars: were they Cat Hsunchen before
Umath's kin took over?)
>R>Both consider outsiders as less than human.
> No, they don't.
Ask the Morokanth, and reread the Telmor write-up.
But then, so do certain Malkioni (Galvosti), the Yelmists, and most
other cultures.
>R>Telmori consider their wolves as full members of their tribe. Praxians
> >don't do so, since Waha's covenant made the herd beasts unintelligent.
> "They're different, so that proves they're the same!"
No. The covenant is the thing that made them different, IMNSHO. I left
out the "not any more".
>R>Praxians were active participants in the Gods War.
> >OK, we lack reports about the Hsunchen activities then. Given the
> >Basmoli Empire in Dawn Age Tanisor, they did, too.
> *Everyone* was an active participant in the Gods War. Haven't you
>been intiated into the I Fought We Won mystery?
I meant battles preceding I Fought We Won, like the one in which Storm
Bull slew the Devil, which rages on as the Eternal Battle.
>R>The Praxians have a solid holy place in the Paps. (They inherited it from
> >the Golden Age people).
> >The Basmoli erected Hrelar Amali. (They developed this themselves, or had
> >Godtime experience with this. They built it themselves.)
> Everyone including the baboons had a big city during the God Time.
Did the Telmori, Pralori, Damali, Sofali, Uncolings, Kivitti etc.?
The Doraddi? (To Sandy: were they part of the Artmali Empire?)
>R>The Praxians worshipped a whole pantheon in Godtime. These gods are dead
> >now.
> >According to GL taxonomy, there exists a whole pantheon of beast ancestors
> >who died during Godtime. Plus the Hsunchen acknowledge the local earth
> >powers (proto-Grain goddesses, like Balazar Vyrope, or the goddess' aspects
> >in tRathorell;a, Ramalia, etc.
> Everyone acknowledges local earth powers except deliberate atheists
>like the Brithini. So?
So this doesn't make Praxian Earth worship special. One point to me.
>R>Now where except in the covenant introduced because of the special power
> >depletion in the Praxian chapparal do you see the great difference? Master
> >Hunters and Khans are not that different.
> All Rune Lords would have similarities. So?
What other Rune Lords need to know Peaceful Cut? What other Rune Lords need
to hunt something to attain their status? Note, too, that both Master
Hunters and Khans must obey the women's cults (Hearth Mother, or Eiritha)
in things concerning their dominance (like the herds).
> Zebras existed in Prax in Genert's time. They were small and useless
>to men, but they existed. The founder of the Zebra tribe used
>heroquesting to create larger rideable zebras.
Not what I meant. All animals could speak in Godtime. The Praxian herdbeasts
lost their ability already during the Darkness.
>R>I really have problems with the reasons why Eiritha would not allow horses
> >in Prax. She did so all the time between the Battles of Necklace Horse and
> >Alavan Argay, and ever since Derek Pol Joni retrieved the Black Net, the
> >horses are back in Prax, and thrive.
> Accepted, or was unable to expel?
If the thesis was true that horses can't survive in Prax because Eiritha
doesn't feed them, what else would they find to eat? If Eiritha cannot
withhold her bounty from certain intruders, can these be
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: re: RQ Daily
Message-ID: <9401261536.AA13985@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 26 Jan 94 03:36:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2906
Alex Ferguson sent me a list of questions on Pelorian cults, and as I
started answering them, I thought the rest of youse guys might like
to see the results, so you could attack my views vigorously in print.
Alex is quite exercised over just what the cult of LUNAR JUSTICE
would be. IMO, not everyone has such a cult. More to the point, who
settles court cases. I have three separate suggestions.
To keep with the Lunar sense of balance -- how about Danfive
Xaron, the only criminal among the mothers?
Or how about using one of the Lunar Examiners?
Or alternatively cases could be decided by a council of 7
judges (ostensibly representing each of the Seven Mothers, and
ideally having a rep from each cult).
Perhaps each of these three systems is used for different
types of cases. For instance, Danfive Xaron might act as judge for
criminal cases, the Lunar Examiners for ecclesiastical cases (common
in a theocracy like the Lunar Empire), and civil cases by the 7-judge
council.
Of course, local systems of justice would prevail wherever
they were already strong.
PELORIAN MILITARY CULTS
LODRIL: it's not an organized military cult, but no more are Orlanth
or Waha and plenty of full-time warriors worship them. I mention him
because I believe he is the single most numerous cult among Pelorian
soldiers. And he's not so bad -- he teaches Heal, Endurance, and
Disrupt, all good military spells, and he even has a few good warlike
Rune spells: Command Salamander, Firespear, and Shield.
POLE STAR: I think he's recognized and worshiped in every civilized
Yelm area and some uncivilized (though there, he may only be
contacted as a spirit cult). I'm certain that each of the Tripolis
would have a temple.
GOLDEN BOW: he is a separate and distinct cult. He is an associate
cult of Yelm, not a subcult. He is not Noble-only. Of course, he's a
lot more popular among the Pent nomads. I imagine that only career
soldiers worship him in Peloria, making his cult rather like that of
Yanafal Tarnils.
YELORNA: Alex wonders whether she is worshiped at all in Peloria,
given her ties to Yelmalio and all. She is a "spark" cult, one of the
many tiny dots of light that stayed lit during the Great Darkness. I
don't imagine her cult is strong at all in Peloria, but around the
fringes, where there are unicorns, I would expect to have an
occasional temple of virginal unicorn-riders. Certainly
sky-worshiping virgins are likelier to be respected in Peloria than
in Prax.
re: DAYZATAR
[Alex, upon learning that any Chief Priest can worship Dayzatar,
points out]
> Hm. Isn't Solar rebirth dogma supposed to say you can only be
>_born_ into the Dayzatar cult, having been a virtuous Yelm
>worshipper in the one before?
Sort of. Like many other "previous existence" rules, it works out as
circular logic. You see, if you are a good Lodril worshiper, next
life you get to be a Yelm guy. If you're a good Yelm guy, in your
next life you get to be the rank of person who can become a Dayzatar
monk. For instance, if you are a Yelmalio Light Priest and retire to
Dayzatar, the elderly priests nod their heads sagely and say, "Ah,
you were a Yelm lord in your last life, thus blessed and predestined
to achieve this rank in your current. No doubt this is your last
incarnation."
You may claim this is rather specious reasoning -- I concur. There is
some evidence that in the First Age, Dayzatar monks WERE hereditary
only. But now the status is available to any good priest. No doubt
the liberalizing influence of the New Council had something to do
with this.
Earlier references have referred to Y.A.'s mother as the Pentan
"Goddess of
Tormented Death" and as a "hell demon" ( Hist. of the Lunar Empire:
Third Wane ).
John Medway whines re: Yara Aranis's parentage:
>Is this a refinement of the old info? (i.e. Gorgorma *is* the
>Pentan's "Goddess of Tormented Death"). Or is this a Greg?
I was with Greg when we worked out the nature of the Pelorian Earth
religion, and it was clear to us then that Gorgorma had to be the
demon that mothered Yara Aranis. She was as yet unnamed in the early
descriptions of Yara Aranis, but when we saw the missing slot in the
Pelorian religion (hmm. "We need a Malign Earth Goddess to keep the
solar jerks in line."), the connection to Yara Aranis was obvious. If
that be a "Greg" so be it.
Sandy