Bell Digest v940129p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 29 Jan 1994, part 1
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: Pure Horse, Golden Bow
Message-ID: <199401280819.AA05931@radiomail.net>
Date: 28 Jan 94 08:18:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2922

Joerg wrote
>(This is somehow weakened by the fact that the Pure Horse Pentans 
>exclusively eat horse meat.

which I don't buy. The Mongols and Scythians are both known to be big
hunters (actually, they weren't Pure Horse -- you're actually much better
off raising cattle*), and the young men's god of the Grazers is Dastal the
Hunter.

My belief is that Pure Horse people eat horses (probably mostly males,
since females are more valuable giving milk), and wild animals. They spurn
domesticated animals -- and probaby don't consider horses to be
domesticated, but rather willing allies.

* According to Marvin Harris in _The Sacred Cow and the Abominable Pig_,
milking mares is dangerous, and horses are less efficient than cow.

and then he wrote
>Votanki from Balazar might be seen as Dog-Hsunchen

which I also don't see. They don't turn into dogs. Dogs are their friends
and allies but not something they particularly worship.

Sandy wrote
>GOLDEN BOW: he is a separate and distinct cult. He is an associate  
>cult of Yelm, not a subcult. He is not Noble-only. Of course, he's a  
>lot more popular among the Pent nomads. I imagine that only career  
>soldiers worship him in Peloria, making his cult rather like that of  
>Yanafal Tarnils.

Greg told me the Grazer god Jardan was Golden Bow. Looking at the four
Grazer age group deities, Jardan also looked an awful lot like Yelm the
Warrior. So in my version of the Grazers, Jardan (aka Golden Bow) is sort
of a Yu-Kargzant (not exactly Yelm, but...) subcult. You don't have to be a
noble to worship (tho you do need the right ancestry), unlike worshipping
Yu-Kargzant proper (only noble adults and clan chieftains worship
Yu-Kargzant directly).

Of course, his worship in Peloria is likely to be quite different, and I'm
sure the Pent nomads don't worship him the same way the Grazers do, either.


---------------------

From: devinc@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missing RQ Dailies and Illumination
Message-ID: <9401280510.tn00729@aol.com>
Date: 28 Jan 94 10:10:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2923

Did not receive RQ Dailies for Jan 23 and Jan 24. Can someone email them to
me at:

devinc@aol.com

Much appreciated.

Also, Illumination figures greatly in my RQ campaign, and I was wondering if
anyone out there has any thoughts on the subject. Some tidbits and questions:

1) Can illumination be reversed? Un
less Illumination is so "correct" a paradigm that once illuminated, the old
beliefs hold
 no water whatsoever, wouldn't it be possible for someone to be re-grounded
into his old prejudiced 
ways of thinking. If not, does this mean that Illumination is the "correct"
way of thinking (
I don't mean correct in the minds of illuminates, but correct in the sense
that it is a basic truth of glorantha)?

2) Do people know that they have been asked a riddle right away or do they
feel funny at Sacred Time? If the former, then I find it hard to believe that
any Riddlers could get away with riddling people without instant retribution.
The rules seem to imply that the riddle roll against skill percent
age is made right away, and an example in COT states that the answer come
unbidden to the "v
ictim's" tongue. They way Illumination is viewed outside of Peloria, I would
assume that anyone feeling such an effect would draw his sword and decapitate
the riddler. In my campaign, riddling is subtl
e, and often involves written notes, songs, and stories that aren't really
direct questions 
or riddles. It takes some time (say a season or two) of pondering in the back
of one's mind before o
ne comes to an insight. This not only seems more "realistic", but allows the
riddlers to be long gone before any sheenanigans are realized.

3) If illumination cannot be reversed, and if it is the 
goal of riddlers to "infect" other with their riddles, then won't it be true
that soon all of glorantha will become illuminated? After all, it will take,
on the average, about 3 or 4 successful riddles to illuminate someone
eventually. If you know anything about breeding systems (like bacteria) then
you realize that even a few riddlers working in concert would eventually
infect the rest of glorantha rather quickly, given that illumination cannot
be reversed and the fact that, once illuminated, the new illuminates seek
also to spread their new state of being to others.

4) COT states that Arkat was illumina
ted by the elves of Brithos. It further implies that Nysalor is the "source"
of illumina
tion. However, doesn't it seem odd that Arkat would be illuminated by a group
of elves dwelling in a land that, supposedly, Nysalor's influence never
reached? This seems to suggest that Illumination has an origin more basic
than that of Arkat and Nysalor (who, of course) are likely one and the same.

So, until trollkin become Death Lords......

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com

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From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (ngl28)
Subject: "THE DESCENT OF MAN
Message-ID: <5434*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=d400_C=de_@MHS>
Date: 28 Jan 94 15:26:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2924

Carl Fink in X-RQ-ID: 2920
understands exactly what I was talking about:

>  Well, I think there's a misunderstanding here.  I have no problem with
>the idea that Praxians are *similar* to Hsunchen in some ways.  Zzabur
>is on record as saying that all non-Brithini humans are descended from
>animals, so perhaps *everyone* is descended from Hsunchen.

The Doraddi, Brithini and Artmali tell us otherwise, the Kralori, Yelmic 
and Orlanthi myths leave the question open.

There seem to be three major and a few minor variants of the Man Rune 
(human races): The Wareran, Agimori and Eastern types each spawned a number 
of Hsunchen races, the minor ones (Veldang, Vadeli [who are listed as 
Warerans in Genertela Player Book if I remember correctly]) apparently did 
not.


Sandy's answers to my provocation left new and other old questions open.

Like Sandy, I'm going to let this threat ebb down. Only some last notes 
(and thanks to Sandy for giving out all this wonderful info, which was 
worth the risk of being branded heretic)

>>Eiritha is listed as daughter of Hykim.

>The Praxians don't descend from Eiritha. Their beasts do.

Wrong, at least according to Cults of Prax. The Ancestors of the People are 
the offspring of the Protectresses (also the mothers of the beasts) and the 
Founders. Both of these are children of Eiritha, the Protectresses by the 
Good Shepherd, the Founders by Storm Bull.

(I think the genealoy is on page 31.)

>>Telmori consider their wolves as full members of their tribe.  
>>Praxians don't do so, since Waha's covenant made the herd beasts  
>>unintelligent.

>Wow, I can't see how I missed this before. Waha's covenant didn't  
>make the herd beasts unintelligent -- it made the humans intelligent.  
>The humans were promoted; made superior to the beasts. 

You're right, this sheds a totally different light on all the Godtime human 
activities. See below.

>The Praxians are the only major human culture in Genertela to be  
>earth-based, unless you count Esrolia. In every other case, the Earth  
>undertones are overshadowed by a dominant religion of a different  
>type. Pamaltela, of course, has a large earth culture left in the  
>Doraddi and Kresh. 

You forget the Tarshite and Saird native earth cults which at times seemed 
to have a firm grip on their (sacrificial!) Orlanthi husband protectors.
These are at least numerically stronger.

I still suffer from my first impression that the Praxian pantheon is just a 
specialized branch of the Storm pantheon, with Storm Bull and Waha in a 
similar role to Umath and Orlanth in the general Storm pantheon. (This is 
what starting Glorantha experience with Gods of Glorantha and the Genertela 
Box does to the unsuspecting mind...) There is no Earth worship mentioned 
in GoG, and the cult of Ernalda/Dendara/Eiritha in the DeLuxe Box seemed to 
indicate it was ubiquitious as a subservient pantheon. I've learned 
different, in time, but everybody suffers from first impressions.

>>>  Are all primitives Hsunchen?

>>On Glorantha, I'm inclined to say yes for humans. 

>Ah, there's the rub, then. I don't think this is so. And you do. No  
>wonder you believe the Praxians must have derived from Hsunchen  
>descent. Apparently you feel that all humans did.

>Me, I believe the Doraddi claim that the oldest folk were highly  
>civilized. 

>Everyone used to be civilized. The Chaos Wastes and Prax was once the  
>home of the Golden Folk. Kralorela has always been an empire, once  
>ruled by the Sun itself. The oldest human culture with a recorded  
>history are the Brithini, who were civilized from the start, and are  
>still more sophisticated/decadent than the Malkioni or other humans.  
>Pamaltela started out ruled by the Artmali Empire. 

Thanks for that insight. However: the Kralorela description has the rumour 
that the Kralori descend from the Dragon Hsunchen.

I agree that the people of the Kingdom of Logic were civilized from the 
start, nad since split into Brithini and conventional Malkioni, a split I 
suspect due to Malkion. I've used this in my Aeolian cult write-up I'm 
going to post soon, in a beta-release.

I can accept this for the Artmali, too, and if the Doraddi say so about 
themselves, who am I to doubt them.

Neither do I doubt it for the Golden Age people of Prax. Only there's one 
big BUT:
(This is what I gather from Cults of Prax and Nomad Gods.)

The modern Praxians are definitely not descended from this civilisation, 
but were roaming around with their animals in Generts Garden. The Golden 
Age people of Prax and the Tada-shi were humans from some other source, 
while the beast-riding Praxians were the offspring of the children of 
Eiritha by Storm Bull and the Good Shepherd. (Ok, the Good Shepherd is 
listed as descendant of Tada and Ernalda, so the Tada-shi were related. 
Remotely.)
The Golden Age people of Prax seems to stem from Ernalda through the 48 Old 
Ones and other, now lost, spirits/deities. The Tada-shi were descendants of 
Ernalda, too, and probably of Tada as well.
Absolutely nothing indicates that the beast-riders were civilized, and your 
comment about the nature of Waha's covenant above makes them look more like 
the pets of Genert's people, similar to the Runners in Aldryami society.

>The Hsunchen are the only humans that are actually primitive  
>(remember, I'm quoting Doraddi beliefs here). This is because they do  
>not descend from the same (four) sources as everyone else. Instead,  
>they descend from animal ancestresses who decided to try to emulate  
>the great successes that other descendants of Grandfather Mortal had  
>achieved. So the animals bred for themselves human children. This is  
>where the Hsunchen come from. 

They refrain from mentioning the Orlanthi and Pelorians, probably because 
of lacking contacts. Several hints for the divine ancestry of these exist 
(Alkor, Yuthu, Hyalor and other sons of Yelm for Pentans and Dara Happans, 
possibly Lodril for the Pelorian lowland natives (were there ever native 
Hsunchen in the central Pelorian Bowl?), and Orlanth for Vingkotlings and 
some other Orlanthi chieftains (at least)). On the other hand, people 
constantly tell us about Orlanthi as originally cattle or sheep Hsunchen.

>The Pinks (Wererans) all originally come from the Brithini, who are  
>also pink-skinned, though paler than most. At one time there was a  
>whole color-scale of ancient humans, all descended from the storm  
>gods' rape of the sea gods. The Brithini, palest of the pale, and the  
>red, brown, and blue Vadeli are remnants of these. 

The Westerners descend from Vadrudi rapists or other Storm Gods (gentle 
Aerlit, cold Ygg) and naiads (Malkioni from Warera, Ygglinga from 
Nelarinna, the Vadeli and Waertagi from other mothers whose names I don't 
know). This brings up the question why they aren't mermen like the 
descendants of Ludocha, Ouoria, Malaspa et al (see Tales 10).

The Brithini believe, in my opinion, to descend from the primeval 
inhabitants of the Kingdom of Logic and the children of Malkion and Britha 
(goddess of the land of Brithos). The original inhabitants of the Kingdom 
of Logic are, IMO, the original humans that were formed by the Celestial 
court from the Man Rune without any interference of other influences (such 
as the Fire of Lodril in the Agimori, the Beast in the various Hsunchen, 
Storm and Sea in the Westerners, Sky and others in the Pelorians...), and 
are related to the rest of humankind like the Ancestral Mostali to the 
dwarves (Clay Mostali). The advent of Malkion in the Kingdom of Logic and 
the resulting evolution I have used for my Aeolian write-up. I really ought 
to post it soon.

Anyway, the surviving Brithini mostly are descendants from Malkion, as are 
the Malkioni, although in lost Brithos some specimen of the preceding 
people of the Kingdom of Logic might remain.

The other peoples classified as Warerans most probably do not share this 
ancestry, whatever teh Doraddi say. After all, their contacts came only 
with the Jrusteli and Seshnegi colonisation in Umathela, and the first wave 
of these fit that description.

What tale do the Agimori of Prax or Pithdaros have to tell?

Agimori descent of men made (constructed) by Lodril:
This tale is corroborated in River of Cradles.

How comes there are apparently Agimori Hsunchen? (see below)

>Paul Reilly (who appears to be siding with Joerg) sez:

>>5) Hsunchen is a religion, not a racial type.

>> I thought the vast majority of Hsunchen were races as well as  
>>X-worshippers.(X = Telmor, Sofal, etc.)  Are many people converted  
>>to Hsunchen religions outside of those born into Hsunchen clans?

>You're right to an extent, but remember that few Gloranthan religions  
>are missionary-oriented. Hardly anyone joins a Hsunchen religion  
>(there are rituals for adoption in case a Hsunchen marries outside  
>his people, or wants to adopt a child), but you can leave the  
>Hsunchen religion and no longer be a Hsunchen (it might take a  
>generation or two). It's kind of like Judaism -- there are few  
>converts, but it's not really a race. 

>	Also, let's not forget that the Hsunchen of western Genertela  
>are clearly Wereran racially, though they have specialized features.  
>Similarly the Hsunchen of Kralorela are Kralori racially, and the  
>Hsunchen of Pamaltela are Agimori. There are no Veldang Hsunchen, at  
>least not in any sort of major group. 

And by saying this, everything goes tumbling again.

But wait, there is a Kralori myth which might help:

Wild Man (their name for the ancestor of all humans) goes around mating 
with the 392 or so animals, plants and rocks before the woman is made for 
him.

From this last union, in which Wild Man was tamed, come the ancestors of 
the Eastern (or Kralori) race.

This myth at least allows for Hsunchen etc by union of the bearer of Man 
Rune with various beasts and other natural forces, and so in the far East 
(the Vithelan Empire) and the far West (pre-Ice Age Brithos aka Kingdom of 
Logic) of Glorantha the pure-bred humans may be found, while all other 
humans have some other, additional, origin in their ancestry.

Joerg Baumgartner
ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de

---------------------

From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au
Subject: Subj:   POWER RUNE
Message-ID: <01H88HKB315O9D5WJM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au>
Date: 29 Jan 94 11:31:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2925

Paul Anderson asks:

>>>6. What is Pamalt's arrow-shaped '|` Rune? 

At the risk of scooping my own magazine, I'll give you a tid-bit from issue
#11 of Tales, the Pamaltela Special (due out any month now!)

"The Power Rune
The God Learners often distorted local patterns of worship to fit their 
own preconceptions and academic strictures. This was especially true 
in Pamaltela, a land whose culture and religious mythologic were 
profoundly alien to God Learner experience and thought.
Amidst this clash of realities, the God Learner cult synthesis often 
obscured more than it revealed.

One example is the "Pamalt" or Power Rune, a source of much 
confusion among visitors to Pamaltela.


The Power Rune belongs to Pamalt. In God Learner documents, it refers to 
the unique influence  Pamalt exerts over the land through his Necklace 
and Council, and his close kinship with the Earth. 
Among the tribes of Pamaltela, the rune is one of a small 
number of secret/sacred runes used within the multiple levels 
of cultic and clan initiation.
"

There's quite a bit more on this topic, but you'll have to wait for the
zine!

Til then, keep walking in the Left Footpath!

MOB

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From: ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de (ngl28)
Subject: "CELTIC ORLANTHI SUN GODS AND GIANTS
Message-ID: <5452*_S=ngl28_OU=rz_PRMD=uni-kiel_ADMD=d400_C=de_@MHS>
Date: 28 Jan 94 16:23:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2926

Paul Anderson in X-RQ-ID: 2917

>  There does seem to be an idea missing from the richness of Orlanthi society, 
>especially if it were inspired by Celtic/Cymric sources, as someone has been 
>arguing on the net [sorry, I don't have my digests to hand]: the lineage, the 
>Colymarssons, the _Cenell Colymar_, which consists of Colymar's agnatic 
>descendants.  
 
The concept you present is interesting. Could you explain it in more detail? 
What is the role of common ancestry for the relations between members of 
different tribes along this line, and does this work only fo rnoble 
bloodlines?


>    1. On CoP p.77 it says that Orlanth "led a strong army of immortals with 
>many allies.  The gods of light continued to fight back, led especially by 
>[Yelmalio] in Peloria...." and continues with Yelmalio's wounding.  Since the  
>discovery of the Elmal\Yelmalio (or is that Yelmal\Elmalio? :-))  schism:

>    a} does this story still exist?
>    b} who tells it?
>    c} what is the name in brackets?

a) just a little while ago, someone (Henk?) posted Greg's reaction to Paul 
Honigmann's Yelmalio quiz, which said something like "all information about 
Yelmalio still is valid".

b) The Orlanthi and the Solar people do, with different emphasis.

I believe that the Orlanthi tell this story with two different outcomes:
(Note that this is my personal hypothesis)

In the Yelmalio story, as in the Hill of Gold heroquest, Orlanth ambushes and 
beats Yelmalio, takes his weapons and armour and leaves him behind.
(This would be the Solar version featuring Bad Guy Orlanth, too, if you 
emphasize it that way. The Orlanthi would tell how Yelmalio refuses 
Orlanth's generous offer of friendship and reutrning the armour after the 
fight.)

In the Elmal story, Orlanth fights Elmal and beats him, but reaches his 
hand in friendship after establishing who is better. Elmal accepts, and 
eventually marries into Orlanth's family.

I think it is quite possible that both stories are the result of the 
original Hill of Gold storyline. Now which one is the real? This question 
might be irrelevant...

c) If one accepts the line of thought above, Elmalio is Elmal who lost his 
fire powers to Zorak Zoran, while Yelmal beat ZZ and kept his fire. Both 
are hypothetical, of course... The suffix -io seems to have been used for 
diminutive names, and the loss of a major power surely would warrant its 
use.

Sandy: Your description of the full story of the Hill of Gold looks rather 
bleak, with virtually no chance for Yelmalio to survive it. Yet Yelmalio 
was present at the dawn, and alive.

And, back to the subject of the names of the sun: I have found the 
reference about the Ralian horse people. It says in Uz Lore that they 
were not polluted by the light of Yelm. If Ehilm=Yelm, how can they worship 
Ehilm (as is stated in Elder Secrets under el-metal)?


>    3. Where did the wise Giants intend their cradles to go?

Good question.

One wild hypothesis is that they intend the child to grow up and eventually 
go down Magasta's pool to get reunited with Annilla, ancestress of the 
giants who fought the dragons before most other events of Godtime, and 
learn her secrets from her directly.

This would explain why there are wise giants (who know these secrets) and 
crude ones.

The whole cradles business has me puzzled, too. It seems that the 1621 
cradle holds the child of Boshbisil the Trader and Sa Mita, both described 
in Griffin Mountain. Yet Sa Mita (and Hen Cik) are said to be young giants, 
merely 80 years or so old.

(The baby is quite large for Sa Mita as mother, too...)

How were they raised, or respectively: why weren't they put into a cradle? 
Do the giants of Rockwood Mountains have a two class system similar to Uzuz 
and Uzko, and only the Uzuz equivalent is sent on its childhood heroquest? 
Then how could they afford to stop this after Thog's defeat in 875, and 
more importantly: how could they take up this praxis again? Does Thog still 
roam the Rockwoods?


BTW: I didn't get around to look this up yet. Is 6 metres the size for a 
72 year-old giant following normal RQ rules, and what age would Boshbisils 
12 metres indicate?

Gonn Orta grew from 12 to 150 metres in 1620 years. This is roughly 1 metre 
per twelve years, which agrees with Sa Mita's size and age. But Boshbisil 
is said to have wandered around with Gonn Orta, who hasn't left his pass 
fort since 1042. An inconsistency, or do some giants grow more slowly than 
others (apart from Karl the Midget)?


---------------------

From: appel@soda.berkeley.edu (Shannon D. Appel)
Subject: Rune Calendar
Message-ID: <199401281837.KAA05659@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 28 Jan 94 02:37:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 2927

Lewis Jardine's TeX Rune Calendar is now available for FTP.  I've also
supplied a postscript conversion, to make the calendar more easily
available to those without TeX access.  The files are all in the
directory:

	/pub/runequest/postscript/calendar

on soda.berkeley.edu

Shannon