From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 04 Feb 1994, part 2 Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: chaosium@aol.com Subject: Glorious ReAscent of Yelm Message-ID: <9402031323.tn152935@aol.com> Date: 3 Feb 94 18:23:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3009 Hank, you may want to announce this in the Runequest Digest. Sam Shirely ----------------------------------------------------- NEW GLORANTHAN DOCUMENTATION AVAILABLE NOW! The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, by Greg Stafford This is the first new Gloranthan material since King of Sartar. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is 82 8.5"x11" pages of ALL NEW information about Glorantha. It is made up of two major sections and a glossary. 1. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm. A translation of the oldest written material from the Dara Happan Empire. It details the earliest Dara Happan mythology, indicating mythology of the popular gods of the pre-Lunar (ie- circa 221 ST) Empire. It includes an index. 2. The Gods Wall. Facts about the prehistoric monumental sculpture of Dara Happa which serves as the basis for its mythology. Shows the 111 Gods and Goddesses of their pantheon. 3. Glossary, listing and summarizing the deities of the previous two parts. Includes good art by Dan Barker, and maps and crude art by Greg Stafford. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is a xeroxed, spiral bound collection of background material which will be refered to in Greg's upcoming "Lunar Book". This is a limited, small printing, of interest to collectors and Glorantha enthusiasts. AVAILABLE ONLY THROUGH WIZARDS' ATTIC, for $25. Call 1-800-213-1493 to Order Today! Or send check or M.O. to: Wizard's Attic, P.O.Box 718, Hayward, CA 94543 --------------------- From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney) Subject: My outburst Message-ID: <9402031859.AA25337@sonata.cc.purdue.edu> Date: 3 Feb 94 08:59:40 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3010 Okay, so I may have gone too far at screaming "one-true-world", but I wanted to bring my extreme exasperation to light, and "gnostic" just doesn't have the wonderful epithet quality of the former. I still state that I consider "what has gone before" irrelevant for one simple reason: If I do not do so, then my campaign is held hostage to knowledge I cannot even access. However, if I treat such out-of-print things as a few rumors and hints of war, but truth-neutral (neither true nor false until I ruminate upon them and decide), THEN I can run MY campaign and not have to keep worrying about my whole world being retconned by something that may never see the light of print again. This is why I react with irritation to people who bring up inaccessible stuff--I find it to be completely antithetical to my entire way of life. I'm a scientist by inclination and training (this means that I am, by the way 100% opposed to God-learner philosophy, Greg's definition of "scientist" notwithstanding). Science relies upon the free flow of ideas and information. This means that when somebody says "Ah, what about Kubizhansky's work in 1984?" you are permitted to ask in what journal it appeared, what pages, what volume, and then it is usually not too difficult a matter to get a reprint and/or translation (although translations can take a bit of time to get done). However, when somebody brings something up in such a way on this list, the option is NOT open to me, so I must sit back, helpless. Now, I understand that science has a different function as a discussion (and that is what science really is, a discussion) than this list, but I still am irked at times at particular instances of gnosticism. --------------------- From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly) Subject: Paul Reilly on Cultures Message-ID: <9402032023.AA16471@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu> Date: 3 Feb 94 20:23:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3011 Nick replies to me: >On the Orlanthi analogues. Celts or Hellenes, what's the difference? >Everyone out there has read the Iliad and the Tain, right? This is basically the point - I'd rather say the Orlanthi are like the Indo-European base culture, chariots, heroes, tricksters and all, whether out of the Tain, the Illiad, the Rig-Veda, or the Hittite Empire, but _avoid_ tying them down to a specific one. They are not like Celts in some ways. >The "Lunarisation" of Carmania in the late >Empire (last couple of centuries) can only be a veneer over their existing >beliefs and structures. Agree completely. Same could be said for Tarsh, or for Ptolemaic Egypt, even Roman or Coptic Egypt. --------------------- From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats) Subject: Game Cost and Size versus Sales Message-ID: <9402032200.AA21572@MIT.EDU> Date: 3 Feb 94 15:57:04 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3012 Greetings! I would like to throw my $.02 in on this one. I have not done extensive market research, but thinking about the gaming population, the difference between $15 and $25+ is significant at that age. Most roleplayers fall into the 13 to 18 year old category --- before serious relationships, work, etc. drag them away into the night! I was at the RQ-CON seminar when Ken Rolston asked for the age distribution of the audience and asked "how many under 21 years old?" [no one] and then "how many over 35 years old" [about 1/2 the audience], but I'm not sure that was totally representative of the RQ population in general. It might, but I'm inclined to believe that the group *of players* is a bit younger. The RQ-CON folks represented the group who had the inclination and could afford to go to Baltimore, Maryland too. My own gaming groups over the past fourteen years have ranged from an average age of 11 to an average of 30. The median was probably about 19 or so. Folks this age would rather spend $15 than $35. Fifteen dollars is a couple of movie tickets or a CD while thirty or more begins to affect other areas. The current group was *very* excited about the draft of RQ IV though, and most said they would buy a copy if it came out in perfect binding format for about $25. AH/Chaosium released Basic RQ a while back, and the RQ Daily had a lot of mail concerning why it did not sell. If RQ Basic were changed and re-issued as a *much* more *basic* version of RQ for introductory players using the ``Basic Roleplaying'' rules that Chaosium has used in-house for years with a few spirit spells and some monsters, you could probably package the whole thing for about $15, and it would be backward compatible with any version of RQ. That would be a great way of getting new folks into the system. The last five supplements for RQ have been *great*; so, keeping the new players interested should not be difficult. By the bye, it was great getting to meet so many of you face to face at RQ-CON! In service, Rich Staats --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Mind how you go Message-ID: <940203223625_100270.337_BHB93-2@CompuServe.COM> Date: 3 Feb 94 22:36:25 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3013 Jphn Medway forwarded Luxius Interioris' stirring proclamation: > The servants of the Goddess in this world are one in thought and deed. > We are the instruments of her wishes. Would one think our Goddess was > not of one mind? Of course not! Fortunate this was addressed to "Friends and Citizens", and not to Citizen Foreigners. The Carmanians would presumably want her to be in two minds... And *truly* pious Moonies would know she, too, was out of her mind... Half-joking, of course. ==== Nick ==== --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Illumination Message-ID: <9402032235.AA16017@trinidad.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 3 Feb 94 22:35:13 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3014 > [me] > >So, there's a fixed set of riddles, and the chance is still linked to a > >skill, but the question isn't? Steven E Barnes: > ??? It seems to be the same old skill-based riddles, which I have > never liked. My problem here is that the sample riddles now make no reference to the associated skill. Hence, we've gone from a crocked game mechanic with (some sort of) a rationalisation, to a crocked game mechanic with none that is apparent to me. SANdy Peterson savages: > I also play that a being tainted by chaos cannot be > "cured", the "Pure One" from the puny Zola Fel cult notwithstanding. Shoot this man asap. This would be fine (maybe) if there weren't so many `environmental' ways of becoming tainted, and no rationale whatsoever as to how the `infected' individual is supposed to react to this. Storm Bulls bumping into Chaos Gaggles just have themselves executed on the spot, do they? Or turn into ravening chaos horror? My Own Personal View, to use an Owenism, is that willful embrace of chaos you're likely stuck with (it's in the _soul_, maaan), but if you just happen to have been contaminated by Background Chaos, there should be _some_ way out. At least potentially, theoretically, in principle. Doubtless dangerous, expensive and painful. Fatal, even. > Illumination isn't universal because other forces act to slow down > illumination. In CoT, remember that it takes a sacrificed point of > POW to be able to say a certain Riddle. How many Riddles do you > suppose the average Illuminate knows? Ten? Twenty? He's able to learn any that he correctly answered in becoming illuminated, which statistically would mean that if he learned to ask all of those, even if he discovered no more subsequently, he'd stand a comparable chance of illuminating someone else. If Riddling is a High Status occupation, many _will_ learn as many as they know, POW permitting. > If he asked every > one of them to a target, the target would only stand a 10-20% chance > of being Illuminated that sacred time, IF he answered all the riddles > correctly. If he gets them wrong, he can try again. And he now gets, thanks to the revised rules, a chance per riddle. Potted analysis of cumulative chance of being Illuminated per question answered: N: p(N) == ====== 1: 0.0100 9: 0.3718 17: 0.8037 25: 0.9718 2: 0.0298 10: 0.4347 18: 0.8390 26: 0.9791 3: 0.0589 11: 0.4968 19: 0.8696 27: 0.9848 4: 0.0965 12: 0.5572 20: 0.8957 28: 0.9890 5: 0.1417 13: 0.6148 21: 0.9176 29: 0.9922 6: 0.1932 14: 0.6687 22: 0.9357 30: 0.9945 7: 0.2497 15: 0.7184 23: 0.9505 ... ... 8: 0.3097 16: 0.7635 24: 0.9624 40: 0.9999 N is number of _successes_, p(N) is probability of being illuminated after N success, to 4 decimal places. For you recurrence relation fans: p(0)=0, p(N+1) = p(N) + (1-p(N))(N/100) (1<=N<=95) Selected hilights: 4: 0.0965 8: 0.3097 11: 0.4968 <-- It's a 50/50 ball, Brian. 15: 0.7184 20: 0.8957 Cough. 23: 0.9505 27: 0.9848 Bacterium city. Sound-bite summary: a Riddler with 11 questions can illuminate _half_ of the people he meets, if he is willing to ask them all, and repeat them as necessary. For a 20-point Riddler, with a 90% cumulative chance for all his riddles, things are starting to get scarey. I'm tempted to threaten to run a full simulation of the spread of illumination in the empire, but alas, we'd have to argue the details of the parameters first. (Such as distribution of riddles known by Illuminates, average skill levels, reasonable rates of possible questioning.) > Let's not forget the existence of numerous effective organizations > devoted to rooting out and destroying Illuminates ... What ones? In the present gloranthopolitical climate, I don't buy this. The only place even moderately swarming with Arkati is Ralios. Storm Bull cultists are likely to be as efficient at suppressing Illumination as stampeding African elephants prosecuting a trial for heresy in a Jesuit court. Who am I missing? > But we should remember that the ultimate goal of the Lunar Empire is > to illuminate everybody -- and illumination is capable of doing so, > despite the hindrances. I think that without additional constraints not implied by (either of) the writeups or conditions in Peloria, they'd have succeeded about four and half Wanes ago. Helpfully, I can think of several: No rerolls. "Ask me that one again." "I'm sure I'll get it next time." Under the current rules, it seems you can simply try to answer a given riddle as often as you like, up to the point of the Riddler slapping you senseless with a large wet haddock out of total ennui. This could just get silly. Now granted, anyone who actually played this way would earn all the free-form sarcasm they could eat, but it'd be nice if the rules actually went along with the Common (ick) Sense view. If the skill thing is intended to limit Illumination to experienced characters, it should be fixed in some obvious way, like the old chestnut of having to raise the requisite skill before re-attempting a given riddle. No free lunches. Currently asking a question costs nothing (Beyond the one-time 1 POW Deposit). No specified amount of time, magic points, periodicity, sincerity, money, phase of the moon, colour of socks, nothing. I can picture a Riddler with a megaphone in my mind with horrible clarity. Or just running around like the chap in the Tango advert. ("Ooooooh, a quintessential[*] Illumination sensation!" "Let's see that one again Ralph." ([*] Or do I mean hexessential[**]? ([**] Or do I mean heptessential?))) 1mp per question per subject wouldn't hurt. Examples of Illumination also suggest a leisurely rate of asking questions, but the rules don't properly reflect it. Do Bad Things happen to people who're asked too many questions too quickly? Fear and loathing. Some people will be sufficiently prejudiced against chaos (or law) and/or the idea of Illumination as to be harder to Illuminate, no? If one plays with traits and passions, these could be used modify Answer and/or Illumination chances, or might have to be completely eliminated first. Pure hearts and fair maidens. What if someone is _trying_ to become Illuminated, but is doing so for the `wrong' reasons? Like stamping out cryto-chaotics (step forward all you Arkati), or being better able to Eat Your Enemies in secret? Sheer Stupidity. Illumination is presented as a fairly intellectualised process, `intuitive' or not. Maybe some people lack the necessary gumption. Or contrariwise, are too glib and sophistry-ridden to Get It. > Where does it say that Nysalor's influence never reached Brithos? I > would say that the written documentation is quite the reverse. We > know that his influence made it to Kralorela. It did? I thought the Eastern strain of enlightenment was supposed to be distinct. Or at least predating Niceguy, and not so contentious and linked with Chaos there. Nick Brooke babbles: > [ 1) Can illumination be reversed? ] > You can try to ignore its effects. But you may fail to convince yourself. > Illumination brings profound psychological problems in its wake, which is > why so many Illuminates go mad. Free-association, unsubstantiated rumours and opinion warning: I think this depends on how you view the Illuminated state. If it's The Truth, you can't alter it, you can only delude yourself into disbelieving it: the cosmos isn't likely to make a special case for you. Or it might just be a mental state, a worldview, with an attached set of intellectual tools. In this case you can get Deilluminated, but it's likely to be comparably hard to getting Illum'd in the first place. Now realise that it's effectively pointless (there are no `real' drawbacks to Illumination, unless you count your now-seasonly visit from the Arkati Thought Police), and pragmatically tricky, since there's no handy army of Deprogramers out there to help. > Sacred Time has nothing to do with it. Looks like you're relying on the old > Cults of Terror write-up, rather than the revised and improved version in > Dorastor. This also solves your third problem: Not! It merely changes the pattern of spread, making it faster, but less `insidious'. > [ won't it be true that soon all of Glorantha will become illuminated? ] > [U]nder the new rules, the roll to become illuminated is made each time > a riddle is answered. So telling someone 3 or 4 riddles stands a very small > chance of illuminating them at the time. Not that small (see above). And I bet being asked a Riddle at least once a year isn't hard to arrange inside the Empire, and if you are, it's immediately _easier_ to get Illuminated than it would have been under the old rules. > I do not think > alarm bells ring in the head of anyone who has just answered a Nysalor > riddle, unless they're the kind of reactionary xenophobic unthinking types > who'd attack *anyone* who questioned their belief systems and world view. Maybe I was wrong about Uroxi not being an effective Illumination counter- measure. To say nothing of most PCs. Alex. --------------------- From: Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM Subject: % chance of Illumination Message-ID:Date: 3 Feb 94 10:29:31 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3015 [This message looks unsuitable for forwarding. The list maintainer has been warned.] --------------------- From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer) Subject: Bat-Smashing Message-ID: <0hIS5uy00WB7NLz10E@andrew.cmu.edu> Date: 3 Feb 94 19:47:38 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3016 It was a while ago that people talked about how to kill the Crimson Bat. This has been a useful subject for promting me to think on Lunar society. I think that plotting to eliminate the Bat is a common parlour game for high class Lunars. It is something of an embarassment for people who think themselves a civilizing influence only to find promising provincials have been consumed body and soul. This does not mean there is an active plot which is about to be sprung, but if need be some of the ground work has been laid, and some of the poor fool younger socialites may actually be willing to make a go of it if given leadership. At the RQcon (I think is was) Nick Brooke said that for the professional Lunar military man the Bat lives as an insult to his ability. If you are going to have the Bat offed in your campaign, dont' neglect the twisted plotting of the Lunars as part of it. Even some of the Bat cultists could be involved, perhaps playing a dangerous double game. My favorite Bat-Smashing plan from many years ago was as follows: Find a very large, but not too stable cave. Lure the bat to the vicinity with a military situation. Have allies you don't care for very much flee into the cave. When the Bat follows, collapse the entrance. (use dwarves?) If you care for the fleeing allies a little, they might use small exits. When the Bat starts starving, it is monstrous. (ok, more monstrous) If the Lunar army doesn't get there quickly to excavate, it won't want to be in the neigborhood for the hungry Bat's emergence. Nils K. Hammer nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu ---------------------