Bell Digest v940204p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 04 Feb 1994, part 2
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


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From: chaosium@aol.com
Subject: Glorious ReAscent of Yelm
Message-ID: <9402031323.tn152935@aol.com>
Date: 3 Feb 94 18:23:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3009

Hank, you may want to announce this in the Runequest Digest.
Sam Shirely
-----------------------------------------------------

NEW GLORANTHAN DOCUMENTATION AVAILABLE NOW!
The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm, by Greg Stafford
This is the first new Gloranthan material since King of Sartar.
The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is 82 8.5"x11" pages of ALL NEW
information about Glorantha. It is made up of two major sections
and a glossary.

1. The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm. A translation of the oldest
written material from the Dara Happan Empire. It details the
earliest Dara Happan mythology, indicating mythology of the
popular gods of the pre-Lunar (ie- circa 221 ST) Empire. It
includes an index.
2. The Gods Wall. Facts about the prehistoric monumental 
sculpture of Dara Happa which serves as the basis for its
mythology. Shows the 111 Gods and Goddesses of their pantheon. 
3. Glossary, listing and summarizing the deities of the previous
two parts.

Includes good art by Dan Barker, and maps and crude art by Greg
Stafford.  The Glorious ReAscent of Yelm is a xeroxed, spiral
bound collection of background material which will be refered to
in Greg's upcoming "Lunar Book". This is a limited, small
printing, of interest to collectors and Glorantha enthusiasts. 

AVAILABLE ONLY THROUGH WIZARDS' ATTIC, for $25. 
Call 1-800-213-1493 to Order Today!
Or send check or M.O. to: Wizard's Attic, P.O.Box 718, Hayward,
CA 94543

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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: My outburst
Message-ID: <9402031859.AA25337@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 3 Feb 94 08:59:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3010


Okay, so I may have gone too far at screaming "one-true-world", but I wanted
to bring my extreme exasperation to light, and "gnostic" just doesn't have
the wonderful epithet quality of the former.

I still state that I consider "what has gone before" irrelevant for one 
simple reason:  If I do not do so, then my campaign is held hostage to
knowledge I cannot even access.  However, if I treat such out-of-print
things as a few rumors and hints of war, but truth-neutral (neither true
nor false until I ruminate upon them and decide), THEN I can run MY campaign
and not have to keep worrying about my whole world being retconned by
something that may never see the light of print again.

This is why I react with irritation to people who bring up inaccessible 
stuff--I find it to be completely antithetical to my entire way of life.
I'm a scientist by inclination and training (this means that I am, by the
way 100% opposed to God-learner philosophy, Greg's definition of "scientist"
notwithstanding).  Science relies upon the free flow of ideas and information.
This means that when somebody says "Ah, what about Kubizhansky's work in 
1984?" you are permitted to ask in what journal it appeared, what pages,
what volume, and then it is usually not too difficult a matter to get a
reprint and/or translation (although translations can take a bit of time
to get done).

However, when somebody brings something up in such a way on this list, the
option is NOT open to me, so I must sit back, helpless.  Now, I understand
that science has a different function as a discussion (and that is what
science really is, a discussion) than this list, but I still am irked at
times at particular instances of gnosticism.

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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Paul Reilly on Cultures
Message-ID: <9402032023.AA16471@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 3 Feb 94 20:23:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3011

  Nick replies to me:

>On the Orlanthi analogues. Celts or Hellenes, what's the difference? 
>Everyone out there has read the Iliad and the Tain, right?

  This is basically the point - I'd rather say the Orlanthi are like the
Indo-European base culture, chariots, heroes, tricksters and all, whether
out of the Tain, the Illiad, the Rig-Veda, or the Hittite Empire, but
_avoid_ tying them down to a specific one.  They are not like Celts in
some ways.

>The "Lunarisation" of Carmania in the late 
>Empire (last couple of centuries) can only be a veneer over their existing 
>beliefs and structures. 

  Agree completely.  Same could be said for Tarsh, or for Ptolemaic Egypt,
even Roman or Coptic Egypt.


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From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Game Cost and Size versus Sales
Message-ID: <9402032200.AA21572@MIT.EDU>
Date: 3 Feb 94 15:57:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3012


Greetings!

        I would like to throw my $.02 in on this one.  I have not done 
extensive market research, but thinking about the gaming population, the 
difference between $15 and $25+ is significant at that age.  Most 
roleplayers fall into the 13 to 18 year old category --- before serious 
relationships, work, etc. drag them away into the night!


        I was at the RQ-CON seminar when Ken Rolston asked for the age 
distribution of the audience and asked "how many under 21 years old?" 
[no one] and then "how many over 35 years old" [about 1/2 the audience], 
but I'm not sure that was totally representative of the RQ population in 
general.  It might, but I'm inclined to believe that the group *of 
players* is a bit younger.  The RQ-CON folks represented the group who 
had the inclination and could afford to go to Baltimore, Maryland too.

        My own gaming groups over the past fourteen years have ranged 
from an average age of 11 to an average of 30.  The median was probably 
about 19 or so.  Folks this age would rather spend $15 than $35.  
Fifteen dollars is a couple of movie tickets or a CD while thirty or 
more begins to affect other areas.  The current group was *very* excited 
about the draft of RQ IV though, and most said they would buy a copy if 
it came out in perfect binding format for about $25.

        AH/Chaosium released Basic RQ a while back, and the RQ Daily had 
a lot of mail concerning why it did not sell.  If RQ Basic were changed 
and re-issued as a *much* more *basic* version of RQ for introductory 
players using the ``Basic Roleplaying'' rules that Chaosium has used 
in-house for years with a few spirit spells and some monsters, you could 
probably package the whole thing for about $15, and it would be backward 
compatible with any version of RQ.  That would be a great way of getting 
new folks into the system.  The last five supplements for RQ have been 
*great*; so, keeping the new players interested should not be difficult.

        By the bye, it was great getting to meet so many of you face to 
face at RQ-CON!

        In service,

        Rich Staats

        

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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Mind how you go
Message-ID: <940203223625_100270.337_BHB93-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 3 Feb 94 22:36:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3013

Jphn Medway forwarded Luxius Interioris' stirring proclamation:

> The servants of the Goddess in this world are one in thought and deed.
> We are the instruments of her wishes. Would one think our Goddess was
> not of one mind? Of course not!

Fortunate this was addressed to "Friends and Citizens", and not to Citizen 
Foreigners. The Carmanians would presumably want her to be in two minds...

And *truly* pious Moonies would know she, too, was out of her mind...

Half-joking, of course.

====
Nick
====

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Illumination
Message-ID: <9402032235.AA16017@trinidad.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 3 Feb 94 22:35:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3014


> [me]
> >So, there's a fixed set of riddles, and the chance is still linked to a
> >skill, but the question isn't?

Steven E Barnes:
> ???  It seems to be the same old skill-based riddles, which I have
> never liked.

My problem here is that the sample riddles now make no reference to the
associated skill.  Hence, we've gone from a crocked game mechanic with
(some sort of) a rationalisation, to a crocked game mechanic with none that
is apparent to me.

SANdy Peterson savages:
> I also play that a being tainted by chaos cannot be  
> "cured", the "Pure One" from the puny Zola Fel cult notwithstanding. 

Shoot this man asap.  This would be fine (maybe) if there weren't so many
`environmental' ways of becoming tainted, and no rationale whatsoever as
to how the `infected' individual is supposed to react to this.  Storm
Bulls bumping into Chaos Gaggles just have themselves executed on the spot,
do they?  Or turn into ravening chaos horror?

My Own Personal View, to use an Owenism, is that willful embrace of chaos
you're likely stuck with (it's in the _soul_, maaan), but if you just happen
to have been contaminated by Background Chaos, there should be _some_ way
out.  At least potentially, theoretically, in principle.  Doubtless
dangerous, expensive and painful.  Fatal, even.

> Illumination isn't universal because other forces act to slow down  
> illumination. In CoT, remember that it takes a sacrificed point of  
> POW to be able to say a certain Riddle. How many Riddles do you  
> suppose the average Illuminate knows? Ten? Twenty?

He's able to learn any that he correctly answered in becoming illuminated,
which statistically would mean that if he learned to ask all of those, even
if he discovered no more subsequently, he'd stand a comparable chance of
illuminating someone else.  If Riddling is a High Status occupation, many
_will_ learn as many as they know, POW permitting.

> If he asked every
> one of them to a target, the target would only stand a 10-20% chance  
> of being Illuminated that sacred time, IF he answered all the riddles  
> correctly.

If he gets them wrong, he can try again.  And he now gets, thanks to the
revised rules, a chance per riddle.  Potted analysis of cumulative chance of
being Illuminated per question answered:

   N:   p(N)
   ==  ======
   1:  0.0100      9:  0.3718     17:  0.8037     25:  0.9718   
   2:  0.0298     10:  0.4347     18:  0.8390     26:  0.9791   
   3:  0.0589     11:  0.4968     19:  0.8696     27:  0.9848   
   4:  0.0965     12:  0.5572     20:  0.8957     28:  0.9890   
   5:  0.1417     13:  0.6148     21:  0.9176     29:  0.9922   
   6:  0.1932     14:  0.6687     22:  0.9357     30:  0.9945   
   7:  0.2497     15:  0.7184     23:  0.9505     ...  ...   
   8:  0.3097     16:  0.7635     24:  0.9624     40:  0.9999

N is number of _successes_, p(N) is probability of being illuminated after
N success, to 4 decimal places.  For you recurrence relation fans:
p(0)=0,  p(N+1) = p(N) + (1-p(N))(N/100) (1<=N<=95)

Selected hilights:
 4:  0.0965
 8:  0.3097
11:  0.4968 <-- It's a 50/50 ball, Brian.
15:  0.7184
20:  0.8957   Cough.
23:  0.9505
27:  0.9848   Bacterium city.

Sound-bite summary: a Riddler with 11 questions can illuminate _half_ of
the people he meets, if he is willing to ask them all, and repeat them as
necessary.  For a 20-point Riddler, with a 90% cumulative chance for all his
riddles, things are starting to get scarey.

I'm tempted to threaten to run a full simulation of the spread of illumination
in the empire, but alas, we'd have to argue the details of the parameters
first.  (Such as distribution of riddles known by Illuminates, average skill
levels, reasonable rates of possible questioning.)

> Let's not forget the existence of numerous effective organizations  
> devoted to rooting out and destroying Illuminates ...

What ones?  In the present gloranthopolitical climate, I don't buy this.
The only place even moderately swarming with Arkati is Ralios.  Storm
Bull cultists are likely to be as efficient at suppressing Illumination
as stampeding African elephants prosecuting a trial for heresy in a Jesuit
court.  Who am I missing?

> But we should remember that the ultimate goal of the Lunar Empire is  
> to illuminate everybody -- and illumination is capable of doing so,  
> despite the hindrances. 

I think that without additional constraints not implied by (either of)
the writeups or conditions in Peloria, they'd have succeeded about 
four and half Wanes ago.

Helpfully, I can think of several:

No rerolls.  "Ask me that one again."  "I'm sure I'll get it next time."
Under the current rules, it seems you can simply try to answer a given riddle
as often as you like, up to the point of the Riddler slapping you senseless
with a large wet haddock out of total ennui.  This could just get silly.
Now granted, anyone who actually played this way would earn all the free-form
sarcasm they could eat, but it'd be nice if the rules actually went along
with the Common (ick) Sense view.  If the skill thing is intended to limit
Illumination to experienced characters, it should be fixed in some obvious
way, like the old chestnut of having to raise the requisite skill before
re-attempting a given riddle.

No free lunches.  Currently asking a question costs nothing (Beyond the
one-time 1 POW Deposit).  No specified amount of time, magic points,
periodicity, sincerity, money, phase of the moon, colour of socks, nothing.
I can picture a Riddler with a megaphone in my mind with horrible clarity.
Or just running around like the chap in the Tango advert.  ("Ooooooh, a
quintessential[*] Illumination sensation!"  "Let's see that one again Ralph."
([*] Or do I mean hexessential[**]?  ([**] Or do I mean heptessential?)))

1mp per question per subject wouldn't hurt.  Examples of Illumination also
suggest a leisurely rate of asking questions, but the rules don't properly
reflect it.  Do Bad Things happen to people who're asked too many questions
too quickly?

Fear and loathing.  Some people will be sufficiently prejudiced against
chaos (or law) and/or the idea of Illumination as to be harder to
Illuminate, no?  If one plays with traits and passions, these could be used
modify Answer and/or Illumination chances, or might have to be completely
eliminated first.

Pure hearts and fair maidens.  What if someone is _trying_ to become
Illuminated, but is doing so for the `wrong' reasons?  Like stamping
out cryto-chaotics (step forward all you Arkati), or being better able to
Eat Your Enemies in secret?

Sheer Stupidity.  Illumination is presented as a fairly intellectualised
process, `intuitive' or not.  Maybe some people lack the necessary gumption.
Or contrariwise, are too glib and sophistry-ridden to Get It.

> Where does it say that Nysalor's influence never reached Brithos? I  
> would say that the written documentation is quite the reverse. We  
> know that his influence made it to Kralorela.

It did?  I thought the Eastern strain of enlightenment was supposed to be
distinct.  Or at least predating Niceguy, and not so contentious and linked
with Chaos there.

Nick Brooke babbles:
> [ 1) Can illumination be reversed? ]
> You can try to ignore its effects. But you may fail to convince yourself. 
> Illumination brings profound psychological problems in its wake, which is 
> why so many Illuminates go mad.

Free-association, unsubstantiated rumours and opinion warning:
I think this depends on how you view the Illuminated state.  If it's The
Truth, you can't alter it, you can only delude yourself into disbelieving
it: the cosmos isn't likely to make a special case for you.

Or it might just be a mental state, a worldview, with an attached set of
intellectual tools.  In this case you can get Deilluminated, but it's likely
to be comparably hard to getting Illum'd in the first place.  Now realise
that it's effectively pointless (there are no `real' drawbacks to Illumination,
unless you count your now-seasonly visit from the Arkati Thought Police),
and pragmatically tricky, since there's no handy army of Deprogramers out
there to help.

> Sacred Time has nothing to do with it. Looks like you're relying on the old 
> Cults of Terror write-up, rather than the revised and improved version in 
> Dorastor. This also solves your third problem:

Not!  It merely changes the pattern of spread, making it faster, but less
`insidious'.

> [ won't it be true that soon all of Glorantha will become illuminated? ]
> [U]nder the new rules, the roll to become illuminated is made each time 
> a riddle is answered. So telling someone 3 or 4 riddles stands a very small 
> chance of illuminating them at the time.

Not that small (see above).  And I bet being asked a Riddle at least once a
year isn't hard to arrange inside the Empire, and if you are, it's immediately
_easier_ to get Illuminated than it would have been under the old rules.

> I do not think 
> alarm bells ring in the head of anyone who has just answered a Nysalor 
> riddle, unless they're the kind of reactionary xenophobic unthinking types 
> who'd attack *anyone* who questioned their belief systems and world view.

Maybe I was wrong about Uroxi not being an effective Illumination counter-
measure.  To say nothing of most PCs.

Alex.

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From: Mailer-Daemon@Sun.COM
Subject: % chance of Illumination
Message-ID: 
Date: 3 Feb 94 10:29:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3015

	[This message looks unsuitable for forwarding.
	 The list maintainer has been warned.]


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From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer)
Subject: Bat-Smashing
Message-ID: <0hIS5uy00WB7NLz10E@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 3 Feb 94 19:47:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3016

It was a while ago that people talked about how to kill the Crimson Bat.
This has been a useful subject for promting me to think on Lunar society.
I think that plotting to eliminate the Bat is a common parlour game for
high class Lunars. It is something of an embarassment for people who think
themselves a civilizing influence only to find promising provincials have
been consumed body and soul. This does not mean there is an active plot
which is about to be sprung, but if need be some of the ground work has
been laid, and some of the poor fool younger socialites may actually be
willing to make a go of it if given leadership.

At the RQcon (I think is was) Nick Brooke said that for the professional
Lunar military man the Bat lives as an insult to his ability.

If you are going to have the Bat offed in your campaign, dont' neglect the
twisted plotting of the Lunars as part of it. Even some of the Bat cultists
could be involved, perhaps playing a dangerous double game.

My favorite Bat-Smashing plan from many years ago was as follows:
  Find a very large, but not too stable cave.
  Lure the bat to the vicinity with a military situation.
  Have allies you don't care for very much flee into the cave.
  When the Bat follows, collapse the entrance. (use dwarves?)
  If you care for the fleeing allies a little, they might use small exits.

When the Bat starts starving, it is monstrous. (ok, more monstrous)
If the Lunar army doesn't get there quickly to excavate, it won't want
to be in the neigborhood for the hungry Bat's emergence.

Nils K. Hammer
nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu



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