From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 19 Feb 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: re: RQ Daily Message-ID: <9402181619.AA15336@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 18 Feb 94 04:19:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3129 Eric Rowe asks if Darkstar is the same thing as Darkfoil. Yes. I misremembered the name. Darkfoil is better. More Dragonewt Stuff: My own rules are that to rise to the next stage, a dragonewt must achieve perfection in the appropriate trait pairs -- i.e., 50/50 in all relevant stats. This is, of course, quite difficult to achieve, since a lot will be left at 51/49 or other slightly "wrong" possibilities. This is one reason for the slow progression of dragonewts. Once the dragonewt has achieved this, he need no longer maintain it. When he dies, he has a chance of regressing to an earlier stage. This chance is as follows: for each trait pair, add the difference between the higher trait and the lower one to the "gap" between then. For instance, if his Brave/Cowardly is now 20/60, the "gap" is 20 (because they are 20 pts short of adding up to 100), and the difference between the lower and higher trait is 40, so the total for Brave/Cowardly is 20+40 = 60. Do this for each trait pair, then divide the total by 10, dropping fractions. The result is the number of "demerits" the creature has earned, which the gamemaster can then apply in whatever manner he sees fit. The random method is to roll 1d100. If the total is equal to or less than the demerit total, the subject regresses. If the 1d100 roll is a "critical", the dragonewt mutates into a dinosaur or worse. Of course, if the dragonewt's death was the result of a successful Utuma skill roll, then he is certain not to regress. This is undoubtedly one reason that dragonewts of higher rank than warrior rarely regress - they have a much better utuma skill. --------------------- From: a2230798@athena.rrz.uni-koeln.de Subject: Questions, more questions, and even more of them Message-ID: <9402181708.AA24240@hpw1.rrz.Uni-Koeln.DE> Date: 18 Feb 94 19:08:20 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3130 Hi Ho ! First time venturing in the Daily, ready to throw my stock of accummulated questions to all you eagerly pondering people. Mostly these are concerned with where to find certain bits of info, so here goes : a) How can I get the info regarding elves that was mentioned some dailies ago, especially the bit authored by Paul Honigmann ? ( The seasonality of elves is a very neat idea ) b) Could anyone be bothered to point out to me the " 3 Yelmalios " ( = Yel- malio, Elmal and ? ) and how they are related to each other ? c) Something of the same type : Are there any officially printed genealogies of the gods, not just the prosopaedia of GoG ? Are they comprehensive, or are at least genealogies for particular pantheons available ? I'd especially welcome a writeup of the solar pantheon, including the po- sition of Pole Star and the Star Captains as well as the Grazelander and Pent connections ( unless this latter plea is contained fully in the GRoY, which I don't own. Is GRoY available somewhere in Germany ( Joerg ) ? ). A writeup of GOLDEN BOW's cult out there ? d) How do I lay my e-fingers on a RQ 4 Rules / Play - Test writeup ? ( Rules for a start preferred ) e) Can anybody donate me ignorant soul a version of the integral LBQ ? I mean the whole tale, not just the summary or some hints. f) Has anybody thought about coinage, mints and the process of minting on Glo- rantha ? I know about Lokarnos' COIN WHEEL and that there's a mint in Pavis ( mentioned in Sun County ), but apart from that. The Lunars use silver coins as their main currency : do they have an equivalent COIN LUNAR(S) ? Or do they rather mint in the ordinary fashion, striking coins or producing them in moulds ( Roman/Greek precedent ). What about other cultures ? In Troll Gods Argan Argar is mentioned as the inventor of Bolgs, and that his priests gain income by producing them, but how are they produced ? If most Gloranthan coins would be produced magically, they would probably be similar to our modern coins, i. e. same weight, shape, legend, picture. But it would be nearly impossible to " clip " these coins for gain or fake them ( which is again mentioned in Hector's Yellow Book in Sun County ). Well, that's it from me for today. I hope to get your comments regarding this last point because I'm going to write an article about minting and coinage in FRG, and would like to include some hints on Glorantha as well. So I'll be off Ralf Engels U. o. C THE DARKNESS LIFTS, IMAGINE, IN YOUR LIFETIME L. Glueck --------------------- From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: Sorcery Before Time etc. Message-ID: <9402181856.AA08582@milli> Date: 18 Feb 94 18:56:48 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3131 Here are my replies to Joerg in X-RQ-ID: 3125 (thanks for commenting on them) >With Zzabur being the "Hero" or "Deity" "worshipped" to gain magic powers? No, as the power to manipulate sorcery comes from the caster. I think that Zzabur probably learnt about how the world worked from his father Malkion, who in turn learnt from his revelation of the IG in "His" role of Prime Mover, kind of a mystical physics course. >>No. >>I for one do hold with the sorcery = science argument, > >Western wizardry, which originated in the Kingdom of Logic. Eastern sorcery >would be philosophical rather than scientific/empirical. Point taken. I only had western culture in mind. (Silly side point: would the GodLearners of the Dragon Ring ever have written the Gloranthan equivalent of the "Tao of Physics"?) >>but I don't think that >>Nick is correct in thinking that scorcery is only possible after Time. >>Firstly, >>sorcery was invented by Malkion's son Zzabur, which was before Time. > >Invented, or found? Or was it a natural ability of the people of the >Kingdom of Logic which Zzabur took and refined? From GoG and the RQ rulebooks, it seems that sorcerers believe that anybody can practice sorcery, so I would say that Zzabur (see above) just discovered it, but see below. IMO, I suspect that some wizards would say that ALL magic is sorcery, it's just that spirits and gods don't like to say so, in case all their followers started using sorcery and stopped worshipping them. >>Secondly, >>I don't even know what the Malkioni say about the Cosmic Compromise, which >>doesn't really seem to effect them as it is pretty much a theistic concept >>concerning the power of the gods being limited. > >The Malkiioni surely appreciate the power limits for the "False Gods", >another proof of the superiority of the Invisible God. Possibly. It occured to me after I posted my message yesterday that to the Malkioni after the Dawn, just as everybody else found that their gods were more distant, through Hrestol, they got CLOSER to the IG. >But then, early sources (1st Age/pre-RQ3) tell us they worshipped Malkion. Joerg, it sounds like you've been Nicked good and proper! Personally, I would not read too much into the earliest Gloranthan material dealing with the Malkioni, because while Greg was writing about them he was also laying down the INCREDIBLY rich mythology of Glorantha. At the risk of judging Greg's motives, I think that all this material is really the first draft of Glorantha and not the final thing. (Aside, a rant: I am writing this on a DEC mips. Less than 5 mins. from here you can see Babbage's Difference Engine, or whatever it is called. Please don't tell me this computer is not a computer because it lacks the gears present in the first one. Babbage' machine was a prototype and Greg's first works were very good first drafts, but neither made it to the masses, and I like the modern version best!) Here is a brief chronology of Malkioni writings: This (above) stuff was written, I think, in the 1960's and early '70's, and in it the Malkioni worshipped Malkion, no mention being made of the IG. As I have already said, IMO this was as much a vehicle for Greg to write about the gods of Glorantha and their myths as it was a vehicle for his ideas about a medieval world; the two strands were bound to be mixed. In 1979, in Son of Sartar, the first RQ shaped Malkioni article appeared , by which stage the Malkioni worshipped Malkion AND had some elemental cults, still no IG. However, Greg states that sorcery comes from the caster, so we find here the first hints of the Malkioni being different from the theists. However, Greg felt he had to explain sorcery as rune magic cast by the sorcerer in worshipping himself, with access to all the runes as Man is distillation of all the runes. However, in 1981 the seminal CoT was published from which we learnt 3 important facts concerning the Malkioni (i) they believe in an impersonal Prime Mover (ii) they worship the Prophet god Malkion, with claims to omnipotence. (iii) they are humanists, in the sense of being "scientific" (the world is the way it is, because of cause and effect, starting with (i)) as opposed to "superstitious" (ouch!)/"religious" (the world is the way it is, because x killed y). Thus, in CoT we almost have the most recent draft of the Malkioni, with them not quite theists in the same way as the Orlanthi, for example are. Finally, in 1985 (?) we have the cult of the IG, which is gives Malkionism in its final or at least latest version: (i) they worship the IG. IMO, their theology might appear to us to be a little vague, sometimes viewing the IG as the impersonal Force of Nature, or impersonal force of the Prime Mover/Creator, while at other times something closer to the "beard in the sky"/vast personal entity of the IG in the prosopaedia. (Aside: impersonal-personal duality, complimentarity in Malkionism?) The Malkioni would explain this by saying that the IG cannot be understood by the mind of mortal man. (ii) They accept Malkion as a prophet of the IG, most accepting Hrestol as a prophet too. This is the Malkionism I use. >Arkati (who originated in the First Age) had no problem with Stygian worship >of deities and simultaneous Malkionism. Neither had the Carmanians' >ancestors in Loskalm. Only the "Return to Rightness" djihad in the early >Second Age manifested monotheism, and suppressed dissenters like Syranthir >and his followers, or the Dark Empire. The Serpent Kings of Seshnela >practised Earth and Ancestor worship, and built temples to Orlanth and >Magasta (!) in Hrelar Amali. Yes. I am happy with the idea of 1st Age Hrestoli living side by side with Stygians, e.g. the latter forming a minority sect in a majority Hrestoli society, as in Syaranthir's case. I can accept that the main-stream Malkioni acknowleged the existence of some "gods", though only as created beings, like themselves. I don't think this is evidence for some supposed pre-Dawn polytheism. From GCHW, we are told that Seshnela fell to barbarians. IMO, this could have been due to excessive Stygian practices, which would explain the motives of the Return to Rightness campaign, who wanted to restore Hrestolism to their motherland and drive out the Stygians. Less a jihad, more akin to the crusades to the Holy Land. Given this, it also explains why Syranthir left Loskalm. More specutively, I think that the GL and RtR members used each other to their mutual advantage, but in the process the GL fixed the impersonal view of the IG onto the Malkioni in order to fit Malkionism into their schemes better, i.e. they employed a pre-existing aspect of the theology of the IG, as opposed to inventing the notion of the IG in the process. (Aside: I once developed an explanation as to how the Loskalmi regained the pre GL Hrestolism they practice today; it was based on monks with hidden texts) It is possible that as the monotheistic Hrestoli spread, they converted by theists, adopting some of their views in the process, so pre-Arkat Stygian practices may have existed, and of course there were the Serpent Kings, but they were branded as heretics. >>Thirdly, related to these two >>points, wizards do not need gods, only their own skill, so anything effecting >>the gods wouldn't have much of an effect on the Malkioni. > >Only on their Saints, which does little to affect a wizard, but a lot to >farmers and warriors (later including knights). Well, saints are all post-Dawn and probably aren't effected by the Compromise in any case. >>However, if you want a little ... > >The Malkioni would say that the greater deities of nature (Yelm, Orlanth, >Magasta, Subere, Ernalda) are erroneously worshipped natural laws, and >the "minor aspects" are local phenomenons of nature (such as Storm Bull). Yes, agreed, but I still think that they might except some of the young gods as beings in their own right. >I don't quite take the crystallizing concept, but maybe I've been into >crystallography too deeply. Time is a constant flow of events, with a >lineal and a cyclical component effective in the Mundane Plane. The lineal >component makes sure the protagonists in the events change over time, while >the cyclical component makes sure that certain patterns of events reappear, >such as the seasons, or the large scale changes which mark the ends of the >World Ages. I think that the phase change idea is correct. I mentioned crystallisation more in the sense of the gods being "frozen" in place, with very little freedom. (Aside: Incidentally, as anyone ever thought of the Form Runes as being a little bit like Higgs fields?) >I like the concepts of Being and Doing, but to me it looks more like the >Compromise assured the deities their Being in exchange for their ability of >Doing. Those who Do are the mortal (including the unaging) dwellers of the >Mundane Plane, who are less assured of Being than the deities. Possibly, my own ideas are pretty vague, as I said, but I think that it could be fun to think in these terms, in order to come to a Malkioni view of the World, as opposed to that of the theists. BTW, I have used IMO alot, because I don't what to appear to preach, but I feel that the fairly strict view of the cult of the IG I've given above is necessary when discussing the main-stream sects, e.g. Hrestoli and Rokari. When it comes to the more divergent ones, e.g. Carmanians or Aeolians, I think that more freedom exists, but then I view them as the mormons of Malkionism. Simon Manning. --------------------- From: tony.burdett@racer.eskimo.com (Tony Burdett) Subject: unsubscribe runequest Message-ID: <3b.984.2.0C2C0CEB@racer.eskimo.com> Date: 18 Feb 94 08:34:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3132 TO: glorantha.holland.sun.com unsubscribe runequest tony.burdett --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Codex; Sartarite attire Message-ID: <199402190654.AA11480@radiomail.net> Date: 19 Feb 94 06:54:06 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3133 >"Codex 1 was brilliant."---Ken Rolston Hah, you made that up, any REAL Ken Rolston quote would have had at least two adjectives or an extra adverb. Like "Codex 1 was charmingly informative." Or "A useful and cheerful publication for all RuneQuest players." When I first saw Codex at RQ-Con, I grumbled to myself that there was a lot of information that had already been published on the Daily. But when I actually went through and read it, there was a lot of new material, and much of the old was reorganized and expanded on. ------ The current draft of RQ: Adventures in Glorantha gives all Sartarite adventurers "Linen tunic, wool kilt, sandals or boots, cloak, furs, headgear, ornaments." This seems to favor unisex dressing, and suggests a style of attire that hasn't really been portrayed in the available art (except possibly the cover of Tales of the Reaching Moon 7). After seeing the new Pendragon supplement Pagan Shore, with Irish Celts who share much with the Sartarites (e.g. election of kings), I suggest the Celtic trousers on p.107 as a more likely article of clothing (or at least as an option). The kilt is presumably simpler to make, and should be reserved for the less organized Orlanthi tribes. ---------------------