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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
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---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Malkioni at Dawn, or being Nicked, Gregged, Joerged etc
Message-ID:
Date: 19 Feb 94 16:38:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3136
S. Manning in X-RQ-ID: 3131
>Here are my replies to Joerg in X-RQ-ID: 3125 (thanks for commenting on them)
>>With Zzabur being the "Hero" or "Deity" "worshipped" to gain magic powers?
>No, as the power to manipulate sorcery comes from the caster. I think that
>Zzabur probably learnt about how the world worked from his father Malkion,
>who in turn learnt from his revelation of the IG in "His" role of Prime Mover,
>kind of a mystical physics course.
I meant this in a similar sense as Togtuvei is the Yelmalian cult hero of
Map-Making, and receives reverance (and possibly invocation) for this.
>From GoG and the RQ rulebooks, it seems that sorcerers believe that anybody can
>practice sorcery, so I would say that Zzabur (see above) just discovered it, but
>see below.
The Brithini don't seem to think so, of their four castes only the Zzaburi
know any magic. The Rokari try to emulate them, and keep High Sorcery from
knights and serfs, and the modern Loskalmi Hrestoli have special initiation
ceremonies one has to pass before being introduced into the basest
manipulation skill, intensity. The Stygians we know too little to say
anything about them from the book. I'd appreciate suggestions on how
frequent sorcery is among the Hendriki, since my campaign in Heortland
is going to lift off soon.
> IMO, I suspect that some wizards would say that ALL magic is
>sorcery, it's just that spirits and gods don't like to say so, in case all their
>followers started using sorcery and stopped worshipping them.
This would be pre-God Learner revisionists. I don't know how popular
Raymond E. Feist's Midkemia novels are on this list, but Pug's sentence
"There is no magic" in Prince of the Blood and Nakor's comments in
King's Buccaneer pretty much summarize my impression of the magic
meta-rules. Magic is using life force (Nakor's "stuff") to alter the
world.
>>But then, early sources (1st Age/pre-RQ3) tell us they worshipped Malkion.
>Joerg, it sounds like you've been Nicked good and proper!
Just because I happen to agree with Nick that this makes early Malkionism
a lot more colourful than one persistent creed throughout the centuries?
>Personally, I would not read too much into the earliest Gloranthan material
>dealing with the Malkioni, because while Greg was writing about them he was also
>laying down the INCREDIBLY rich mythology of Glorantha. At the risk of
>judging Greg's motives, I think that all this material is really the first draft
>of Glorantha and not the final thing.
Maybe this is illuminated, but I appreciate the inherent contradictions
in published Glorantha facts.
>Here is a brief chronology of Malkioni writings:
>This (above) stuff was written, I think, in the 1960's and early '70's, and
>in it
>the Malkioni worshipped Malkion, no mention being made of the IG. As I have
>already said, IMO this was as much a vehicle for Greg to write about the gods
>of Glorantha and their myths as it was a vehicle for his ideas about a
>medieval world; the two strands were bound to be mixed.
I tend to use such sources by implying later revelations. They worship the
creator through Malkion, so they worship Malkion.
> In 1979, in Son of Sartar, the first RQ shaped Malkioni article appeared
>, by which stage the Malkioni worshipped Malkion AND had some elemental cults,
>still no IG. However, Greg states that sorcery comes from the caster, so we
>find here the first hints of the Malkioni being different from the theists.
>However, Greg felt he had to explain sorcery as rune magic cast by the sorcerer
>in worshipping himself, with access to all the runes as Man is distillation of
>all the runes.
I used this as my base for speculating on the Kingdom of Logic and the
Brithini. The Brithini use the Pentacle as symbol for the five elements
and their magic. Sorcery is the magic which rules the five elements and
the five pairs of Powers. Man is the sixth force, which controls the first
five.
In my theory the Holy Country installed by Belintar is an attempt to
revive the lost Kingdom of Logic, with the five Elements and the
humanists as the sixth force, and that this is what makes the land holy.
It is Creation in a nutshell.
(This is anyway the Aeolian doctrine.)
> However, in 1981 the seminal CoT was published from which we learnt 3
>important facts concerning the Malkioni
> (i) they believe in an impersonal Prime Mover
which doesn't contradict anything said before,
> (ii) they worship the Prophet god Malkion, with claims to omnipotence.
Which is the way things were described before.
> (iii) they are humanists, in the sense of being "scientific" (the world
> is the way it is, because of cause and effect, starting with (i)) as
>opposed to "superstitious" (ouch!)/"religious" (the world is the way it is,
>because x killed y).
Which fits into my conception of the Kingdom and Logic and its successor,
the Holy Country.
>Thus, in CoT we almost have the most recent draft of the Malkioni, with them
>not quite theists in the same way as the Orlanthi, for example are.
Which is what I use for pre-God Learner Malkionism.
> Finally, in 1985 (?) we have the cult of the IG, which is gives
>Malkionism in its final or at least latest version:
> (i) they worship the IG. IMO, their theology might appear to us to be a
>little vague, sometimes viewing the IG as the impersonal Force of Nature,
>or impersonal force of the Prime Mover/Creator, while at other times something
>closer to the "beard in the sky"/vast personal entity of the IG in the
>prosopaedia.
>(Aside: impersonal-personal duality, complimentarity in Malkionism?)
> The Malkioni would explain this by saying that the IG cannot be
>understood by the mind of mortal man.
> (ii) They accept Malkion as a prophet of the IG, most accepting Hrestol
>as a prophet too.
> This is the Malkionism I use.
It is the Malkionism I use for post-God Learner/Rightness Ages. But I agree
with Nick that this need not be the form of worship before their depredations,
and that single cells of prior worship survived. I regard the Aeolian
Church of Heortland as a relic of early Arkati worship, with more early
Hrestoli (1st Age Seshnegi) elements than the Ralian curches, which
developed when Arkat lived in his Dark Empire and could exert some control
over their development. The Heortlending Aeolians are Arkati who came into
it prior to Arkat's ties to darkness, and thus have little of it. IMO the
Kitori temple of Black Arkat and the Aeolian church are separated by a
schisma similar to that of the Nicaean council or the Pelagian Easter
debate in Earth's dark Ages.
So, Tanisorian Rokari and Loskalmi Hrestoli are rabid monotheists, as
per Return to Rightness. Castle coast and Junoran Hrestoli probably are,
too, as are Daranian Galvosti. The rest of Fronela was touched by the Return
of Rightness campaign, which drove all heretics out (Syranthir) or subdued
them. Those in contact with Theyalans returned to their pre-Rightness ways
after a time, e.g. the Jonatings.
>>The Serpent Kings of Seshnela
>>practised Earth and Ancestor worship, and built temples to Orlanth and
>>Magasta (!) in Hrelar Amali.
I just checked my sources. Is it possible that King Dan was responsible
for this? (Genertela Book, Dangim, p. 70)
>Yes. I am happy with the idea of 1st Age Hrestoli living side by side with
>Stygians, e.g. the latter forming a minority sect in a majority Hrestoli
>society, as in Syaranthir's case. I can accept that the main-stream Malkioni
>acknowleged the existence of some "gods", though only as created beings,
>like themselves. I don't think this is evidence for some supposed pre-Dawn
>polytheism.
"Stygians" did not exist before Arkat turned into a troll. The Aeolians have
no darkness affiliation other than Orlanth's Cloak of Darkness, Inora,
Valind or Argan Argar and the Only Old One via their Earth connections.
Call these Henotheists, please.
My theory again:
Those people the Hrestoli idealists lived with continued the fivefold
elemental way of the Brithini and the Kingdom of Logic, but without
keeping the caste restrictions the Brithini of Arolanit kept, thus
following the course of Malkion (the concept of Solace) as he established
it in his old age, which his sons (led by Zzabur, and probably Talar too)
refused to follow.
This had caused the split between Brithini and Malkioni. The Brithini
jealously claimed the survivors of the Kingdom of Logic as well as
immunity to aging (by denying themselves Solace).
Hrestol upset the Linealist caste system by introducing knights and merit
into Malkioni society. It seems the Elementalist faction (those trying to
keep the tradition of coexistence from the Kingdom of Logic mostly sided
with the knights (Hrestoli) against the wizards (Brithini).
I am not sure whether Hrestol himself was a polytheist or not. To be honest,
I don't care. But for me (and my impression of the Aeolian Church of
Heortland) it is important that the early Malkionists had a society not too
dissimilar from modern Hendriki society. They say that their religion is
the closest to the ancient intention of the Creator when he created the
Kingdom of Logic. IMHO they're right, and Belintar was the agent of the
Invisibe God in doing this.
> From GCHW, we are told that Seshnela fell to barbarians. IMO, this
>could have been due to excessive Stygian practices, which would explain the
>motives of the Return to Rightness campaign, who wanted to restore Hrestolism
>to their motherland and drive out the Stygians.
>Less a jihad, more akin to the crusades to the Holy Land.
Jihad, crusade - mostly a matter whose side you're on.
King Dan from Dangim conquered Seshnela. The people of 1st Age Dangim seem
to have been Horse Riders similar to the Galanini, and it might have been
contact with them that made Hrestol develop a body of mounted warriors,
the knights, when the sea-based Horali warriors were faced with mounted
nomads. But at least 3rd Age Horali have mastered horsemanship, so this
theory might be void.
>Given this, it also explains why Syranthir left Loskalm.
>More specutively, I think that the GL
>and RtR members used each other to their mutual advantage, but in the process
>the GL fixed the impersonal view of the IG onto the Malkioni in order to fit
>Malkionism into their schemes better, i.e. they employed a pre-existing aspect
>of the theology of the IG, as opposed to inventing the notion of the IG in the
>process.
How interdependant were God Learners and Return to Rightness crusaders?
I read somewhere that Jrustela was settled by Sesnegi (using Waertagi ships)
to avoid rebellion in Seshnela. This means that similar to early north
American settlers, these were dissenters and religious fanatics.
Is it possible that the Seshnegi threw out the most rabid of both
monotheists and elementalists, who in banishment developed further into
Return to Rightness crusaders and God Learners respectively?
Did they cooperate in an attempt to throw off the yoke of the motherland,
only to secess later into two factions at odds, like US confederates and
unionists in the Civil War?
I can't help viewing Jrustela as the Gloranthan equivalent of North America.
>(Aside: I once developed an explanation as to how the Loskalmi regained the pre
>GL Hrestolism they practice today; it was based on monks with hidden texts)
Monks, nuns, monasteries and abbeys: how common and important are these in
Malkioni societies?
Are monks in Hrestoli society people who out of free choice accept the
rigours of Brithini-like Caste behaviour, to please the Invisible God?
> It is possible that as the monotheistic Hrestoli spread, they converted
>by theists, adopting some of their views in the process, so pre-Arkat
>Stygian practices may have existed, and of course there were the Serpent Kings,
>but they were branded as heretics.
I'll side with Nick hat there were a whole lot of polytheistic Malkioni
in the 1st Age, and I think that from the most rabid of these, exiled to
Jrustela, sprang the first God Learners.
(I hope this doesn't alarm the Knowledge Assassins. If so, all subscribers
of this list are on their list, too ;-))
>Well, saints are all post-Dawn and probably aren't effected by the Compromise
>in any case.
I disagree. Some Saints (first of all Malkion himself) are pre-Dawn.
And deities apotheosized within Dawn did so by embracing the strictures
of the Compromise (e.g. Arkat, Sartar, Geo, Dormal), the bad Red Woman
excepted.
>I think that the phase change idea is correct. I mentioned crystallisation more
>in the sense of the gods being "frozen" in place, with very little freedom.
There are changes between different solid phases as well, you know,
changing the material properties drastically without changing the chemical
composition. In this sense, I'll accept phase change.
>BTW, I have used IMO alot, because I don't what to appear to preach, but I feel
>that the fairly strict view of the cult of the IG I've given above is necessary
>when discussing the main-stream sects, e.g. Hrestoli and Rokari. When it comes
>to the more divergent ones, e.g. Carmanians or Aeolians, I think that more
>freedom exists, but then I view them as the mormons of Malkionism.
True, some Stygians' relation to Malkiomism somewhat paralells that of
Manicheism to Christianity, but in general I prefer to think in
pre-reformation schisms of Chiristianity when viewing the various sects
of Malkionism.
BTW, I stand ready to defend my points before the synode at Sog City, aka
How The West Was One to be held on Convulsions. Prepare the pyre...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Ralf's questions
Message-ID: <940219091409_100270.337_BHB44-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 19 Feb 94 09:14:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3134
Ralf Engels unlurked...
I think you need a copy of Greg Stafford's book "King of Sartar", Ralf: a
lot of the things you're asking are covered there (the Lightbringers Quest,
Elmal/Yelmalio, etc.). It's a paperback published by Chaosium, which I'd
hope is still available.
I'll try to fill in some of the details you're wanting here, and let you
know where more can be found.
> Could anyone be bothered to point out to me the " 3 Yelmalios "
> ( = Yelmalio, Elmal and ? ) and how they are related to each other?
It is rather confusing at times.
Elmal is the Orlanthi god of the sun, the Loyal Thane Guarding the Light.
See "King of Sartar" and RQA#2 for more details. It's quite hard to find
cultists in normal clans throughout the southern ("old") parts of Sartar,
though they're still there and fully integrated in the north (Far Point,
where Harvar Ironfist comes from, which joined Sartar after the secession).
"Yelmalio" (i) is the name we now attach to the solar mercenary cult found
in Sun County in Prax. I'm not certain that's what they call their god:
these guys moved out there from Dragon Pass in the Second Age, and were
probably Dara Happan in origin. Our group talked about Father Yelm and the
Holy Sun Dome more often than Yelmalio, while playing there. See "Sun
County". I think this is the most commonly-encountered bunch of
"Yelmalions" in games of RuneQuest, so the cult writeup is probably aimed
at describing them.
"Yelmalio" (ii) is the recently-founded religion of secessionist ex-Elmal
cultists at the Sun Dome Temple of Dragon Pass. See "King of Sartar". It's
important to remember that while these guys have stolen ideas from the Sun
County folk and the Dara Happans, they're barbarians by origin and will
probably do things differently.
Antirius, from GRoY, is the god of emperors found at Raibanth, one of the
solar cults derived from dismembered Yelm. He is *not* Yelmalio. Only a
peculiar God Learner would say otherwise. The cults have bugger all in
common except a fight at the Hill of Gold; and Antirius died from his.
"Yelmalio" cults are found throughout the southern highlands of Peloria --
the citadel kings of Balazar have one, and Vanch and Holay too -- but these
are probably Dara-Happan-influenced-Elmal kingship-cults rather than Sun
Dome Temples. Sun displacing Storm in a tribal barbarian worship pattern.
If you know anyone who went, there were good articles on Elmal/Yelmalio in
the RQCon programme book by Stafford, Martin and Hall. David Hall's myth of
Elmal-as-Cinderella is particularly fine and useful in games: it has a real
purpose to it, and could profitably be told in character. Can you post it
here, David?
> Are there any officially printed genealogies of the gods, not just the
> prosopaedia of GoG? Are they comprehensive, or are at least genealogies
> for particular pantheons available?
Genealogies were printed in old issues of Wyrms Footnotes for various
elemental pantheons. These will be reprinted in Wyrms Footprints, which
we're feverishly working on. Gods of Darkness are in Uz Lore; Gods of the
Sea are in Tales #10. The Six Earth Goddesses are easy to set out. Dara
Happan solar genealogies are, as you surmised, in the Glorious Reascent. A
Storm Gods' genealogy is in "King of Sartar".
For my money, most coinage on Glorantha is produced the way it was in the
real world. Temples' minting spells are for unique special commemorative
issues, etc. As someone pointed out, it takes a priest a day to coin one
Wheel, once you bring in spell recovery time (as you should). One day of a
priest's time should cost more than a Wheel, in my books anyway.
====
Nick
====
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: No critic...
Message-ID:
Date: 19 Feb 94 16:24:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3135
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 3123
>Joerg, my toughest critic, asks:
Critic? Me a critic?
All I do is ask questions. Does this make me an inquisitor?
>>What are the different "flavours" of this Rune for the major races?
>Wareran = storm. Kralori = sky. Agimori = Earth. Veldang = Moon.
How do the Dara Happan like their descent from the misfit of the Solar
pantheon, then?
>>Why did the Hsunchen adopt the flavours, too?
>They had no choice. Here are four theories about the Hsunchen.
[...]
> How's that, Joerg? Enough theorizing for ya?
Thanks, Sandy. A fine collection of "grab your favourite" explanations,
as common for Glorantha.
>>Why did the God of the Silver Feet be an Air God?
>Because Issaries is the ally of Orlanth and shares his cult
>philosophies, and vice versa. His worshipers even come from the same
>culture (at least nowadays). I contend you don't need the storm Rune
>to be associated with the storm gods. I certainly think that if an
>Issaries priest wandered into the Lunar empire, he'd be viewed as a
>possible subversive, even as the Yelmalio jerks in Biturian Varosh's
>tale chose to view him, an Issaries priest, as a Storm-worshiper.
Does anyone else think that this Heroquest failed because the Yelmalians
tried to cheat?
> Pamalt is an Earth god because he heads up a council largely
>composed of Earth gods. He is associated with the earth.
As are Yelmalio, Orlanth, Storm Bull, Argan Argar in Shadow Plateau,
Lodril in Peloria, the Red Goddess via Deezola and others,...
Are all of these Earth Gods, to a certain degree? Then the definition
becomes meaningless.
>>>[I said] Yelm is a highly benign god -- much more so
>>>than the unreliable Orlanth.
>>To his descendants, only. Maybe include Dayzatar's offspring, but
>>I wouldn't include Lodril's, or Aether's other children.
>Wow, apparently you, Joerg, have swallowed the Orlanth propaganda
>hook, line and sinker. See here, Yelm is the most generous deity in
>the universe -- every single living creature on Earth (except trolls,
>maybe) depend on him for survival, and he provides it to all without
>cost and in most cases without even gratitude on their part.
Actually, I wrote a stronger version of it, which boils down to "Yelm
cheated, so Orlanth had no choice but to kill him". Now I proselytize...
> The proper Yelm ruler is fair and just to all, NOT just to
>his followers. Many Yelm tales give cases in which a Yelm king ruled
>in favor of an outsider over one of his own kin, because the outsider
>was right, and his kin wrong. Orlanth would never ever do such a
>thing.
Now you are spreading propaganda. Orlanth ruled against his own kin
several times. Ok, no big deal with relatives like Vadrus/Ragnaglar,
Gagarth and other psychopomps, and follwers like Eurmal. The thing is
that when Orlanth rules against his kin, he even makes good the damage
done himself, as Orlanthi kinship rules (devised by himself) prompt him
to.
> Why do you say that Yelm is not benign to Lodril's kids? He
>takes upon himself the burden of being always perfect, always just,
>always responsible, and Lodril worshipers get to have orgies and do
>pretty much what they like. When a Yelmite adjudges a Lodril, I'm
>sure he takes the Lodril's social caste into consideration.
My point exactly. Yelm treats Lodril, an overall benign if somewhat
disorderly deity, like Orlanth treats Eurmal, Disorder in pure essence
(I still think that Illusion ought to go to Donandar, Disorder to Eurmal,
and Bolongo into the Necklace of Pamalt).
>For
>instance, a Yelm worshiper who commits adultery is no doubt branded
>or even killed. A Lodril worshiper may only be publicly embarrassed
>-- and if the act occurs during a fertility festival, it's probably
>not even considered a crime.
Wouldn't branding be an honor in fire-worhipping religions? ;-)
Orlanthi would say that by imposing these rules on his populace, Yelm is
cruel. Amazingly, the Lunar philosophy tells us the same, each individual
has to find its place itself, move through the ranks by merit and
achievement. The only achievement a Yelm worshiper needs is right of birth.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de