Bell Digest v940223p2

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 23 Feb 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


---------------------

From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Malkioni - again
Message-ID: <9402221818.AA10931@milli>
Date: 22 Feb 94 18:18:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3159

Well, I guess I've appeared a pretty rabid monotheist, have'nt I.  In that case,
I apologise and I'll quiten down a bit, especially because of Sandy's comments 
in X-RQ-TD: 3147.  However, I can't resist adding my own comments to some of 
Sandy's:

>I suspect that more than any other Gloranthan religion Malkionism has  
>suffered from revisionist history (I mean by Gloranthans, not by  
>Greg). 
OK.  I guess I tend to credit history with too much objectivity and empiricism.
>First we just have sorcerers, as evidenced in some real old  
>works (the Vadeli may be survivors of this day).
My personal opinion is that pre-Zzabur the westerners used what is best 
described as a proto-sorcery. Given this, I have imagined
 that when, as part of Malkion's revelation, Zzabur invents the sorcery 
known today, the people of the KoL etc. would have gone "wow", this chap really 
knows his stuff.  If sorcery pre-dated Zzabur, then could the use of it by the
Vadeli have been an ingredient in the Old Malkioni (Brithini)-Vadeli schism?

>Then Malkion comes and sets up the Brithini.
YES, YES, YES!  This is great and confirms that the Brithini, i.e. the Old 
Malkioni, were not pre-Malkion and that the Old Malkioni were of only one
sect, at least those of Malkion's Kingdom, later Seshnela, Brithos and Akem.
  If they worshipped Malkion, great, but I still think that the ESSENTIAL
feature of Malkionism is recognition/worship of the IG.  
>Then Hrestol comes and provides a new  
>interpretation of everything Malkion said.
Yep!  I would go a little further.
At Gamesday '86 (?) (Halcyon days), you said that alll Malkioni, 
bar the Brithini etc., have Malkion as a patron saint.  
To me, (WARNING: VAGUE IDEA AHEAD) this suggests that the Malkioni would 
say that he stands between created beings and the Creator.  Solace then follows
as the result of the (realisation of the) link of the worshipper to the IG, via
Malkion.  (Aside (just thought of this): this is a little reminiscent of 
illumination - a "mystical" peace through a teacher/Gbaji/Nysalor.  We know 
that the riddlers had difficulties in the West, could it have been Solace vs.
Illumination?)

Hrestol's revelation is then to learn how to approach Malkion and from him 
continue to the godhead, which for most post-Hrestol Malkioni would be at
death.  However, this personal relationship could be experience prior to
death through DI and divination, which Sandy said was possible for 
Malkioni, too.  The Joy of the Heart would then be something they would 
believe in, as opposed to experience, as with Solace.

Personally, I see Old Malkionism as being a "war-time" society, established
under emergency conditions so that the people and the arts of their civilisation
could survive.  In this way, people had to specialise so that nothing would be
lost.  I can't help but see it as akin to the biblical ark, only instead of a
physical ship in which Noah etc. where confined in order to survive, we have
a confining social order, the purpose of which was to preserve the people and 
their culture.  (I had the ark idea whilst watching a documentary on 
the supposed site of the Ark in Turkey)  I think this puts a nice spin on 
Dawn age Malkionism.

>Then, a few hundred years later, 
(~ 1000)
>the Rokari claim that the Hrestoli are misinterpreting Hrestol  
>(and vice-versa). I imagine every tiny sect of Malkionism has a  
>completely different interpretation of what Malkion said and what  
>Hrestol said. 
OK, but isn't there a Malkioni Bible?  A wizard's bible is mentioned in Dragon
Pass.
If there is, I like to think of it as addressing only moral issues and leaving
most of natural philosophy out of it, except an account of the Creation.
(Aside: I like to think of the people of the KoL huddled around fires, facing
the end and still discussing questions of natural and moral philosophy!  This 
adds a nice twist to Malkion's revelation, as when he tells his people of the
Creator and creation, they would not only be in awe of him for his status as a 
prophet, but they would be moved by his knowledge of cosmology! So there would
have been along with "hail the prophet" as many, "blimey, that's how He did it,
I'd have never though, always had my money on the theory of ..."; well, kind 
of). 

>Solace only knows what the Malkioni believed in the Great  
>Darkness. Certainly the Malkioni themselves can have no idea.
What about the above, plus histories like the "Book of Parables", mentioned
in Genertela, Bk. I ?  Wouldn't they cast some light on the Great Darkness (no
pun intended)?


>	I suspect that the modern gulf between deism and Malkionism  
>may not have been so great during the First and Second Age. The God  
>Learner Empire certainly had both wizards and priests working in  
>happy cooperation. Perhaps the God Learners' destruction is one of  
>the reason that the wizards are so hostile to the so-called "False  
>Gods" today. Also the Serpent Kings' clear ties to the Earth gods  
>indicates a possibility (to me), that the rulers of the Seshnegi were  
>god-worshipers, though their subjects may not have been. 
Post Hrestol, I think that fitting other gods into the Malkioni scheme of things
is fine.  As I said yesterday, Malkion had dealings with the gods (e.g. Britha?)
 and viewing 
gods as saints, aspects of the IG etc. is OK.  I just don't think that you can
really be a Malkioni and not have the IG up there, at the top, number one big
fella etc.
	I like the idea
of the 3rd age state of affairs being due to the Malkioni thinking they got
their fingers burnt in the past.  I think this could be used to argue that the
Return to Rightness party were used by the GL.  It also shows that if you 
think that the GL imposed a particular theology of the IG on the Malkioni, then
it is just as likely that by 1600, the Malkioni would have done that hardest
to shake off any aspects of GL views they could find.  This is certainly true of
the Rokari, and I would like to think it is true of the Loskalm Hrestoli too, 
but I can't help but dwell on Meriatan's words.  Maybe this is the more 
healthy Malkioni view of the gods, but I am not sure, especially as he 
says how the IG combines all the gods in Himself, so he must too.  Maybe this
is close to the pre-Arkat, post-Hrestol, polytheism?

Monks etc.. Thanks for your views.  I was influenced by the references to the 
GL monks and the wizard abbey in Tanisor (can't remember where exactly, sorry).

>>Some Saints (first of all Malkion himself) are pre-Dawn.
>I agree with this statement. However, they may not have received  
>proper saintly-worship until after the Dawn.
Yep, exactly.  BTW, do you know of any other saints, apart from: Malkion,
Hrestol, Xemela, Arkat, Gerlant, Talor, Paslac and Valkaro? Waertag is 
mentioned, but is this a mistake, as well as a St. Madron in Sesnela?

Yours feeling a little buoyed up by Sandy's comments and hopefully not such a
monotheistic bigot today,

	Simon Manning.

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 21 Feb 1994, part 2
Message-ID: 
Date: 22 Feb 94 18:39:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3160

Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 3138

>  You _have_ to get a GRoY.  Since this is a currently in-print product, I
>am reluctant to redistribute info from it; besides, retyping is tedious.
>Maybe Joerg can get a copy and permission to recopy and redistribute with a
>fee paid to Chaosium (or not), this seems more sensible than mailing endless
>copies across the Atlantic.  Greg?  Joerg?  Are you two reading this?

Joerg here: I am. I might, although a distributor in Great Britain would 
do for the rest of us Europeans.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: T.S.Baguley@open.ac.uk (T.S.Baguley Thom Baguley)
Subject: Yelm vs. Orlanth
Message-ID: <9402221857.AA00745@Sun.COM>
Date: 22 Feb 94 18:57:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3161

Commenting on Sandy on Yelm and Orlanth

> Yelm treats Lodril like a potentially erring child, or like a  
>big fuzzy dog that's not too smart and sometimes needs correction. In  
>other words, the Yelm rulers treat Lodril and Dendara followers  
>paternalistically. While that's hardly an ideal in the modern  
>Democratic world, there's plenty worse practices in Glorantha and  
>darn few that are better.

I think this is one of the problems. We compare Glorantha to our contemporary
Western values and see more similarities in Orlanthi societies than our own
(though I suspect that an Orlanthi visiting our society might judge it closer
to Yelmic cultures ..).

I think that Yelmic culture relies heavily on insitutions, traditions and
precedence for its values. A good leader in this culture is one who works
within the established framework to aid his people (and the cult of Yelm may
make it difficult for that framework to be ignored or changed).

A good leader in Orlanthi culture is one who brings his or her personal
qualities (intelligence, courage, loyalty, honesty, generosity etc.) to the
fore in his dealings with his (and other) people.

If the Orlanthi leader isn't up to the job (not very bright, not very honest
etc.) his people will be in trouble. However, Yelmic culture protects against
this e.g. in the establishing of precedent, the delegation of authority and so
on (this is a protective factor because it is very difficult to change the way
things are done in Yelmic society).

On the other hand, if your leader is good, innovative, exciting and so on
Orlanthi culture will provide more opportunity for creativity, better
adaptation to changing circumstances and so on. Yelmic society restricts an
innovative leaders' ability to improve the way things are done or to cope with
change.

Of course these are generalizations. Orlanthi do have laws and precedents, just
not to the same extent. As Sandy says, both Orlanthi and Yelmic cultures offer
happier places to live than many other Gloranthan cultures.

[I'm tempted to suggested that Lunar culture is like Yelmic culture without the
restrictions against change and without a strict moral code ... an analogy
springs to mind with the last 14 years of government in the UK, but I'd better
stop before I start to rant.]

Thom


---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Gloranthan Post Office
Message-ID: 
Date: 22 Feb 94 19:01:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3162

Greg Fried here.

Paul Reilly asks: "Is there a god of philately?"

Well, I can't help playing the pedant here!  Being an avid stamp collector in
my youth, I can tell you that 'philately' is the love of stamp collecting. 
'Numismatics' (from the Greek 'nomisma' -- something sanctioned by law as the
conventional 'coin' of trade) is the name for the collecting of coins and
medals (not military medals, but rather the commemorative and
honorific medals produced largely in the Renaissance).

Now, the question of whether there IS a postal service in operation
anywhere in Glorantha is an interesting (if incredibly geekly!) one.
Of course, there have been messenger services carrying documents
around since antiquity.  The question is, is there a culture anywhere
in Glorantha which would support an official, (semi-?) public
communications-delivery service? In other words: Has Issaries ever served as
Postmaster General?  And does a god have to be dead for ten years to
appear on a postage stamp?  (Although, technically, there were RL postal
systems in operation LONG before the invention of adhesive postage stamps in
1840, so the Lunar "Penny Red" may not yet exist.)

I would presume that such a service would require a civilization with
a fairly large degree of literacy.  Furthermore, it would probably
only arise in a culture in which commerce is important enough to
require frequent communication of commercial documents.  I bet the God
Learners had a postal service!  Maybe also some of the city states in
contemporary (!) Genertela, and perhaps some of the more advanced
Western cultures.  Maybe the Lunars, given their neurotic love of documents.

As for a "god of numismatics" -- just ask Urgggghhhh (or whatever) the
Ugly, and his Gold Wheel Dancer!  Or, Issaries as the god of trade and
communication, might be the god of 'conventional' coinage.  I think
that an imaginative form of the Issaries cult spirit of retribution
(Raw Greed) would 'numismatic mania' -- the compulsion to get your hands
on every variety of coinage possible for you 'collection', to amass as
many 'duplicates' of each coin as possible for possible future
'swaps', and, of course, to never spend a single, precious clack!
(Just remember how you all felt about spending those cool minted lunars in
the Home of the Bold LARP at RQCon!)

Yours in nerdliness,

-- GF

(PS: Turned in the last section of my dissertation last week! Now I
may have some more time for RQ.  [Ha!])

---------------------

From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: This and that
Message-ID: <9402222100.AA18261@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 22 Feb 94 21:00:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3163


Kralorelan Names

  ALthough I don't speak any Chinese languages I have occasional access to
people who do.  Questions to them indicate that Kralorelan is pretty much
Chinese.  Hence it seems one can easily come up with Kralorelan names for
people or things by finding someone to translate for you.  Hence:
  Li Tsao - "Daughter of Light" - a prophetess
  Lao Ren - "Old Man", founder of a school of alchemical magic and philosophy

  etc.

Lewis writes:
> ... Sandy's radical Dragon Magic ...
>	Further I believe that these other magic systems exist and are totally 
>different from spirit, divine and sorcery:  

>Mostali mechanics
>Kralori mysticism
>Vormain chromancy

>	There are undoubtably other systems (in Pamaltela?) and also thousands 

  Good points, although I don't know if I'd go with _totally_ different: I 
think there should be some underlying natural laws, otherwise you might as 
well be in the Void of Chaos.

  Other systems that we know about already include: Jelmre emotion magic,
Kimos rock magic, Chaos powers (very different), Doraddi sand paintings.
I'm sure we can think of more.

>  It is possible that there is a meta-magic system in Glorantha 

  I might think it even better to say "Glorantha has a set of natural laws."
These are quite different from our own but they must be there in order to
distinguish Glorantha as a world unique in itself, not part of the Void.

>  For those who want to tie down all the 
>possibility in Glorantha look at what happened to the GLs

  The God Learners get a lot of bad press, it's true.  I'd like to hear
their side of the story - many of the good things in modern Glorantha are
a result of their work.  I'm sure that some of them were quite reasonable
folks.

---------

  Scotty writes:
>This is what I use.  It's also a good way to explain why you never 
>(okay, extremely rarely) see folks who use both spirit magic and 
>sorcery: they require a totally different mindset.  One's own 

  I agree, different mindsets and even different perceptions.  Also, as
I run them, the systems are innately hostile in many ways, except perhaps to
illuminates of the Lunar way, who are able to embrace apparently contradictory
truths without going insane.  (Well, ok, with going insane, but in a 
controlled way.)

  -------------

  Joerg B. asks:
> I'd appreciate suggestions on how frequent sorcery is among the 
> Hendriki, since my campaign in Heortland is going to lift off soon.


  Sandy replies:
>Richard the Tiger-Hearted and his minions were mostly Rokari, if  
>that's any help. 

  In my campaign there are Richard and his twenty-four Knights, who are
supported by their men-at-arms and a small number of good professional
Wizards.  All of these use sorcery, the Wizards doing most of it.
In addition there are Aeolian Wizards, henotheists who follow various
saints like St.Orlanth, etc.  Practice much air magic.   They are fairly
rare but a noble might have one or two working for him.

  Common people use spirit magic, not sorcery.

  A few others.

  Sandy writes:

>I suspect that more than any other Gloranthan religion Malkionism has  
>suffered from revisionist history (I mean by Gloranthans, not by  
.....
>Solace only knows what the Malkioni believed in the Great  
>Darkness. Certainly the Malkioni themselves can have no idea. 

  It seems strange that the people with extensive written records and 
long-lived individuals have the least idea of what was going on a long time
ago.  Did all the Brithini who lived before the Dawn get their memories
erased at some point?  What does, say, Malcolme Phillipe remember?


>with relatives like Vadrus/Ragnaglar, Gagarth and other psychopomps,  

  Is Gagarth a pschychopomp for the Praxians?  Issaries is the Orlanthi
psychopomp, I believe, and not related to Orlanth.  Or should that be
'psychopath'?


  I endorse (although he doesn't need it!)  Sandy's comparison of Yelm and
Orlanth.  Orlanthi tend to have a double standard between themselves and
outsiders, and between their relatives and strangers; Yelm is far more
Just.

  Well, have to go to a Faculty Dinner.  More Tomorrow...

 - Paul