From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 28 Feb 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Heortland abbeys again
Message-ID:
Date: 26 Feb 94 15:24:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3190
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 3186
> I defined a jihad as a war intended to convert unbelievers to the
> true faith; and a crusade as a war intended to punish unbelievers
> for their false doctrines or evil practices.
> Joerg B. responds
>>Think of the crusades of the Swedish in Finland and the Germanic
>>knights in the baltic countries, 10th and 11th century. These were
>>wars intended to convert unbelievers to the true faith.
> I was actually thinking of these at the time, as well as of the
> Byzantine "crusades" against the pagan Bulgurs. My impression from
> reading about the Teutonic knights is that they mostly just killed
> pagans and stole their land, and I know little about the Swedish
> crusades against the Finns. In any case, the distinction between
> jihad and crusade is still a useful one, even if some "crusades" turn
> out to actually be jihads under a different name.
My impression was that they installed themselves as overlords over the
rich baltic tribes. That the region was regarded as rich is documented
e.g. by Alfred of Wessex' translator of Orosius' historiarum libri VII
adversus paganos in the Wulfstan section.
Tell me of one religious war which did not end up as a landgrabbing
venture.
No conquering overlord could ever afford to wipe outthe natives. You
killed some, to prove your might, and then ruled over the rest. Look at
Cerdic, Hengist and Horsa, Sven Forkbeard, William the Conqueror,
Christopher Columbus, or in Glorantha Richard the Tigerhearted and Harrek.
>>I like to compare Heortland to Anglosaxon England, where monasteries
>>and abbeys played an all-important role
> I know that abbeys were real important in England at that time, but
> have no data on how important they were in France or Spain at that
> same time. I suspect they were at least as plentiful, if not more. I
> guess I think of Heortland as having fewer abbeys because it has just
> recently been conquered -- few of the population have as yet made a
> switch to Malkionism.
Few have made the switch to Rokarism. Aeolian creed is native - think of
the role of the Irish church in Northumbria.
> For some reason, you, Joerg, do not think that the Yelm rule is
> benign to the Pelorian Lodril/Dendara worshipers, and I can't imagine
> why. Certainly the horse nomad rulers were bad, but the native Dara
> Happan rule has been perfectly reasonable -- the Lodril worshipers
> didn't welcome Theyalan liberation from them, only from the horse
> nomads. Feel free to define Yelm as a cruel and oppressive master all
> you want, but I cannot agree.
I just don't accept that it is more benign than Orlanth's rule. On the
contrary: the Theyalan movement offered friendship, where the Yelmites
offered thralldom. Where Orlanth merely admonishes, Yelm strike with full
hardness (compare the spirits of reprisal).
>>Orlanthi accept good men for their merits.
> At least if they're related to them.
They'll get a good man into family, e.g. by marriage.
> Every Orlanthi clan is in a
> constant state of war with some other Orlanthi clan regardless of
> their relative merits. They're always stealing sheep and waging blood
> feuds. Where's the "merit" in that?
Every Yelmite city is in constant internal intrigue, as well as against
other cities. Stealing by law is benevolent, is it? I hereby proclaim the
Banana Republc of Dara Happa.
Understand me right: I wouldn't dream of regarding Oranth as the nice
uncle. But Yelm has proven himself to be the outwardly nice but false
uncle or brother.
> ---------------------
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 3187
> Mike Dawson said
>>Can anyone show any evidence that any culture anywhere has ever
>>followed this economic boondoggle? The "tradition" that
>>coins are worth 2x their weight means that a government (or anyone
>>with the proper tools and thumbs) can turn about a 90% profit on a
>>bit of hammering.
I might have found one. Sir Frank Stenton's "Anglosaxon History" states
(p.222 paperback edition)
(shortly before Offa's reign) "In Northumbria this silver currency gradually
degenerated into a copper coinage, of no artistic merit, but authenticated
by the names of the king and of the person responsible for the issue of
each coin." This seems to have no connection between weight and value of
the coin, although this isn't explicitely stated.
> While I don't know the actual numbers, the word "seigniorage" (which
> describes the practice) derives from Middle English, so it probably dates
> way back.
Linguistically I'd doubt that, the form is clearly French. The practise is
older, as I showed above, and might be similar to the marker currency
described in the unloved "Eldarad" supplement.
Who knows details about Lydian (the inventors), Greek and Roman coinage?
> ---------------------
Bob Luckin in X-RQ-ID: 3188
> I can resist playing the name game no longer...
> How about :
> Malkion is a corruption of either "Mal kin" or "Mal scion"; and "Mal" is
> obviously a degraded form of "Mallia". This of course *proves* that Malkion
> is descended from Mallia, no matter what any worshippers of the Invisible God
> may tell you... :-)
Well, Malia/Mallia obviously derives from Latin mal-us, -a, -um, "bad,
evil".
Quite a lot of names derive from Latin, the most glaring misspelling is
Yelm's son Archer, Latin: Sagittus, Gloranthan: Saggitus.
> Lets see what the 7th Malkioni Ecclesiastical Congress has to say about that
> one !
My guess:
"The only corruption is in your thought, brother Robert, repent and penitate,
or you will burn in Hell as you will on Earth!"
Malkion obviously derives from "Malacia", Latin for "Soft Wind over the
Sea", a most fitting name for the son of a gentle-minded Kolati and a
Sea-nymph.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: What's in a name ?
Message-ID: <9402261723.AA17779@tera>
Date: 26 Feb 94 17:23:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3191
In reply to Bob Luckin's derivation of Malkion (X-RQ-ID: 3188), how about the
following for Orlanth. In Orlanth the W of Worlath has been dropped, so really
we have something closer to Worlath. Now, Worlath = Wor+lath
= W(h)or(e) + lath(e).
What is a whore's lathe? Well, a lathe involves objects with cylindrical
symmetry, so maybe it is a peasants reference to a rent-boy's most important
professional asset.
Funny lot the Orlanthi.
Hope this suitably offends,
Simon.
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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Kirsten C. Jacobus)
Subject: Pain to the Purists.
Message-ID: <9402262235.AA18236@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 26 Feb 94 12:35:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3192
The following lyrics are copyright 1994 Bryan J. Maloney.
Now, I'm sure that several melodies could be used with them. For reasons
of copyright, I'll not mention that Ringo Starr is my favorite Beatle nor
that "Octopus's Garden" is my favorite Ringo song from that period.
Permission is granted to reproduce this in any RQ or Glorantha fanzine
so long as I am credited and at least told that this is being done.
Walktapus's Ambush
I'd like to fight
All through the night
In a walktapus's ambush in a bog.
He'd do his best
With arbalests
To kill me, after skewering my dog.
I'd ask my friends to come along
And we'd sing all our fun'ral songs.
I'd like to fight
All through the night
In a walktapus's ambush with some broo.
We'd scream and run, (Aah-ahh)
Providing fun
For chaos monsters looking for a meal. (monsters looking for a meal.)
Oh what a thrill (oo-oohh)
To be a kill
For Jack-o-bear who's brought us all to heel. (brought us all to heel.)
We could wave our swords around
Before we get smashed to the ground.
I'd like to fight
All through the night
In a walktapus's ambush with some broo.
[cute guitar solo with lots of bubbly noises in the background]
I'd like to fight
All through the night
In a walktapus's ambush in a bog.
A happy crew
Made up of me and you,
Reduced to bloody, dripping sog.
Our souls would get devoured entire
And sent back to the Primal Mire.
I'd like to fight
All through the night
In a walktapus's ambush, with some broo,
In a walktapus's ambush, with some broo,
In a walktapus's ambush, with some broo.
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From: jpolk@opus.starlab.csc.com (James Polk)
Subject: Red Moon; Pole Star
Message-ID: <9402271603.AA08267@opus.starlab.csc.com>
Date: 27 Feb 94 16:03:42 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3193
David Dunham replies: (X-RQ-ID: 3095)
>I like the idea of the "crimson corona" within the Glowline.
>However, I have trouble with the phases of the moon being
>different in different regions within the Glowline. If that were
1) There's a lack of instant communications -- great empires have problems
because of distance, not time zones.
2) The Lunars still use Theyalan day names, probably to avoid such
problems. (No doubt common people, who don't deal with distances farther
than they can walk, frequently use phase names.)
3) Your suggestion is weird enough it may be right. I think it'd be very
odd to step through the Glowline and not only see the corona disappear, but
see a different phase.
-----
It seems to me that distance problems translate to time problems. I assume there
is a thriving commerce sector within the Empire, which means merchants from every
region will be meeting with each other fairly constantly. They would need to
have a consistant time reference to make such meetings work. Perhaps they
wouldn't always need to specify a particular day (using a week instead), but for
some things, like a particular trade fair, they might. I also think the military
might be interested in precise timing...
Theyalan day names - on what do you base this? I'm not challenging you, I'm just
wondering if I have missed something (again) in the reams of RQ paper I own. (I
would have thought that people in the former Dara Happan lands would be unlikely
to use Theyalan day names...)
I agree it would be disconcerting _for us_ to step through the Glowline and see
the corona disappear and the phase change. But seeing the phase change would be
something which happens to everyone who travels in Glorantha. And seeing the
corona disappear would happen to anyone crossing the Glowline. (Question: Does
the moon phase change gradually as one moves East/West? - North/South?, or does
it change abrubptly?) Once one accepts the idea of phase change across
Glorantha, one should also accept the idea of seeing a phase change, even if only
across a single night (which would occur if the phase changes gradually). So the
idea of a phase change occuring across the Glowline is no more strange than it
occuring anywhere else.
In addition, I see it as strange to see the moon _not_ change when passing
through the Glowline. Why do people think it reasonable for the Glowline to
affect Lunar magic but think it unreasonable for that same Glowline to affect the
appearance of the object which controls that magic?
Alex replies (X-RQ-ID: 3164)
James Polk:
> The White Moon
> I would be very interested in learning if anyone else
> has documents concerning the White Moon, and, if so, what those
> documents say.
I'm working on white-moonish things, somewhat. Not from a True World
viewpoint, or even a Gloranthocentric one, but trying to chuck together
some idea about what the movement is, does, and believes. Currently,
I see it as a rather disparate affair, all things to all men, riddled
(ahem) with heresies and counter-heresies...
After all, what do white moon fans have in common, or to base their beliefs
on? A vague idea that the crimson bat eating people isn't quite nice,
the Pelorian White Moon prophecy (and maybe certain others, like the Dwarf
of Dwarf Run's), and maybe the odd spot of Illumination on the side?
License to print flakes, say I.
-----
Thanks for the information.
-----
> Given all this, I posit the worship of Pole Star includes Rune
> Lords (Star Lords) AND Rune Priests (Star Priests). Their
> initiates are called Star Warriors and Star Dancers,
> respectively.
I take it you're effectively suggesting splitting Polaris worship into
subcults, one led by Priests, the other by Lords, then, a la Orlanth?
If so, it's not incompatible with what Sandy and/or Nick suggest.
> Although the cult is small, it is one in which a
> woman may rise on merit as an equal to any man, at least on the
> Rune Priest side. (Presumably, this practice would be seen as an
> unnatural one by some other Solarians.)
You're not kidding. This is quite an unlikely role, IMPO, for a `son'
of Dayzatar. Come to that, there are other cults for the `Dance' aspect,
though whether they are very open to women in Dara Happa and other solar
lands is somewhat questionable, too.
-----
Dayzatar has a daughter, too. In fact he created a very important daughter, who,
in turn, created Musa, the solarian inspirer of poets and musicians (if I read
GRoY correctly). But I think you missed my point that whatever Pole Star was at
first, his description now includes Dance. It may well be that such a
description was added (created?) by the God Learners, as a result of the changes
after Castle Blue, or some such. I believe Greg metioned at RQ Con that where one
finds a god who has multiple aspects, one also finds a diety who is the
compilation of several dieties. I am suggesting that something of this nature
has occurred to Pole Star.
-----
David Dunham:
> 3) Your suggestion is weird enough it may be right. I think it'd be very
> odd to step through the Glowline and not only see the corona disappear, but
> see a different phase.
I agree: a bit _too_ weird. It's not beyond belief that the phase of the
moon is constant throught the empire, but if so, it should be constant
_everywhere_. Alas, this contradicts a number of published sources, and hence
would need a Greg to become True.
-----
As per my comments to David Dunham above, I don't understand your definition of
"weird". From my perspective as a 20th century (Christian calendar) Earthling,
a red moon which hangs in the Air, has its own bloody goddess, and changes phases
every night is _weird_. But once I accept these attributes of a moon, I can also
accept other things. So why shouldn't this moon have constant phases everywhere
within the Glowline? And why does it neccessarily follow that phase consistancy
within the Glowline requires phase consistency without? Could you elaborate on
your objections a bit more?
-----
Why/how else might the phases by accounted for?
-----
I suggest the phases of the Red Moon are reflections of the inner light of the
Red Goddess, which in turn is influenced by the powers of the Seven Mothers. (I
guess I prefer a spiritual answer to the question of the origin of the lunar
phases to a physical one.)
-----
AndersJC replies: (X-RQ-ID: 3165)
On Lunar Phases
James Polk says:
> I suggest that one of the effects of the Glowline is to make the timing of
>the lunar phases within the Glowline the same [everywhere].
This is, of course, only possible as a mere appearance, which ties in
nicely with the recurrent hints that the Lunar Rune is linked with Illusion.
The Lunar mystics say that this reveals a truth about the universe; the
Theyalans reply that it says much about the Lunar Empire.
This suggestion also has textual support: _Dorastor_ says that "In the
Empire, the Full Moon falls on Wildday"; which would mean that the Goddess's
chosen internal face is the one she shows to Dragon Pass (the magical center of
the Universe) and the Homeward Ocean (the physical center of the Universe).
. . .
btw, none of these theories of the moon have yet explained the _name_
Silver Shadow. Why Silver (as opposed to Scarlet, which is also Lunar)? Does
the White Moon already shine on Glamour? Shadow of what? the walls of the
Crater?
-----
While the consistancy of the Red Moon within the Glowline may well be an
illusion, I do not think it _must_ be one. What all of the above seems to come
down to is "What is the nature/purpose of the Glowline?".
As to Silver Shadow, this name seems to tie into the work I am doing on the White
Moon. I am not trying to be coy, but am waiting for my copy of King of Sartar
to arrive so I can check to make sure my translations (ideas) do not contradict
(are not contradicted) by currently official material.
James
---------------------
From: malcolm109@aol.com
Subject: re:re: Sorana Tor
Message-ID: <9402272153.tn109462@aol.com>
Date: 28 Feb 94 02:53:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3194
I proposed that Sorana Tor was a priestess of Kero Fin. I also proposed a
connection between Kero Fin and the Feathered Horse Queen. I went on to
suppose that I was marriage to the priestess of Kero Fin, goddess of Dragon
Pass, was what made one king of Dragon Pass.
Joerg responded:
>[Soranta Tor is]...Daughter of the Goddess: this might mean daughter of
Ernalda (whose statue was >reinstalled shortly after), of Kero Fin, of Maran
Gor, or of Gata or an >even more primal Earth Goddess.
And he continues:
>As I read the Composite History of Dragon Pass, to become King of >Dragon
Pass, one has to master the Lady of the Wild through her >representative.
Ironhoof perceived her as a mare, Arim the Pauper >as an Oread, and after the
first Feathered Horse Queen had finished >her heroquest, she and the later
Horse Queens took the role.
I hadn't noticed that Ironhoof, the first King of Dragon Pass, had mated with
the Lady of the Wild, so I hadn't taken her into consideration. But this ties
in quite nicely with my theory as the very passage in KoS/CHDP that describes
Ironhoof's dream mare says, "It was Lady of the Wild herself, the daughter of
Kero Fin." (p. 104).
So, if marriage to the Lady of the Wild who is Kero Fin's daughter, and
marraige to Sorana Tor the daughter of the goddess, both make one King of
Dragon Pass, I think it's safe to assume that the goddess in both cases is
Kero Fin. Hence Sorana Tor is most likely to be a priestess of Kero Fin, IMO.
It also seems to me that the Lady of the Wild, Sorana Tor, and the Feathered
Horse Queens are all the represenatives of Kero Fin.
Malcolm
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