From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 02 Mar 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Me and Sandy, Alex joins in
Message-ID:
Date: 1 Mar 94 16:27:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3209
Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3195
[>>>: Sandy, >>: Joerg]
>> Certainly not all, since caste membership is hereditary.
> Not amonst the Hrestoli, it isn't, though if they're immune to nepotism
> they'll be the only such society on either Glorantha or Earth. It may the
> case that in the less robustly Idealist communities children of non-Farmers
> are whisked through the lower classes rather briskly, until they reach
> their `proper' station, but that's just the cynic in me talking.
Right. I was a bit out of context. Maybe the increased fumble for
fatigued people in RQ:AiG is correct after all...
>>> Among the Rokari, I have a different theory about monks and
>>> nuns. Seems to me that the Rokari culture can't support any more
>>> wizards than the Orlanthi can support priests. However, the Rokari
>>> wizards, hereditary all, can breed more wizards than society is
>>> willing to feed and tend for.
> Is that really the case? There's only a pressing need for this if the
> Wizard class breeds faster than the others. And didn't someone suggest
> that Rokari Wizards (may) take vows of chastity and celibacy?
As one of the non-producing classes (i.e. all except the farmers) they
will have a higher standard of living and health care, therefore lower
mortality. Chastity was proposed for the higher ranks. From a breeder's
point of view, this is counter-productive. If the Rokari wizard caste
wants to keep a high magical standard, apprenticeship should be a
prerequisitive for marriage and reproduction. This way, they would
select the strongest magicians' genes. Vows of chastity ought to be
taken at the age of fifty, when a) the higher church offices can be
attained and b) reproductive age has passed.
(I know this sounds somewhat like Nazi doctrine. I happen to use the
Rokari and their society as bad guys in my planned Heortland campaign,
and I don't like their society any more than the Hendriki do.)
[Was there any worship of any god at all before the Dawn ?]
>> Good question. I think there was, a worship of the leader, from which
>> the communal spirits (Orlanthi would say wyters) came into being, the
>> largest of all was Glorantha (and now is Arachne Solara). Lesser ones
>> manifested as deities of the land, or of nations, etc.
> The problem isn't the gods, which were stoatin' around in droves, but the
> `worship'. If the distinction between the assorted `planes' only occurred
> at the begining of Time, then worship must have been very different indeed.
> Theistic temples are surely a post-Time invention: after all, why pray to
> Yelm if you could just take a number at the Celestial Court to wait and see
> him in person? (In Godliness??)
Take any number beyond 111 or 294 and you won't be admitted except by
challenge. And the lowest free number happened to be 295 at Umath's
birth already...
I was thinking of worship in the sense the Humakti worship their regimental
standard, or the inhabitants of the Holy Country worship the Pharaoh, those
of the Lunar Empire the Red Emperor, and the Kralori the Exarchs and Godunya.
>> Because, IMHO, any change by a heroquest results in multiple versions of a
>> myth, and by analyzing the various versions the prior truth can be
>> reassessed.
> This may often be the case, but I think a sufficiently successful HQ
> could change the myth completely, eliminating earlier versions. Examples
> are hard to come by, for obvious reasons, but anyone you think of an a
> priori reason why this couldn't, or hasn't, happen(ed)? And I don't think
> multiple myths always indicate HQing: for example, is this the case for
> the Creation of Humans?
I tend to view these as a handful of distant origins. In case of the
Hsunchen I suspect strongly that their close animal kinship was the
result of an adoption rite similar to that Ironhoof used on the Golden
Horse refugees after Alavan Argay which made them to Grazers and allowed
them a place in Dragon Pass during the Inhuman Occupation.
> At the least, It Has Been Gregged that Dawn Age and Third Ages myths
> `differ'. (Though that could be interpreted in a number of ways.)
> In my more skeptical moments, I sometimes wonder if all putatively pre-Time
> events aren't completely ficticious (/mythic/allegorical/whatever). To
> wit, either `creation' may have occurred at the Dawn, or pre-Dawn history
> may have been entirely confuzled by subsequent myth-making.
With 50,000 fully trained heroquester absolvents of the university of
Newfroswal (in Umathela) alone (and possibly 25 times as much counting in
the 13 major Jrusteli State universities, and those of Seshnela and
Slontos), I daresay a myth had to hide really well to avoid being
bent in the God Learners' age.
> Not in my opinion. To claim that what`s needed is "cultural initiation",
> and then to rewrite the _cult_ initiation rules is surely to confuse
> the issue. To reiterate: if we grant that one can undergo initiation
> into adulthood and the tribe without becoming an initiate in the religious
> sense, what's wrong with the existing rules?
Because that's not the way Glorantha runs, if I understand this right.
[>>>: Alex]
>>> Icky: the whole point of the POW sacrifice, according to my understanding
>>> at any rate, is to bind the Initiate to his God (singular).
>> I agree. Only, as the Seven Mothers example shows, this is also possible to
>> a group of deities. But if the new deity is one of the group, it can claim
>> the former link exclusively.
> Ick-ick-ick. This would make sense if one were losing "Low Initiate"
> status in the remaining cults (though I think I'd still dislike it), but
> Boris stated that (generally) one wouldn't. If Low Initiation is intended
> to be a non-magical status (Boris suggested Rune magic wouldn't necessarily
> be available), why should POW sacrifice be necessary?
Replace "Low Initiate" by "Associate", with no change in magical ability
(or even accompanied by an increase from the Associates).
> And as for the 7M cult: well, I think this raises more questions than it
> answers. But at any rate, 7M initiation isn't into a _pantheon_, it's
> into a group of deities, all associated in any case (one supposes, at least),
> in their role relating to a very particular mythic event. This would
> be better compared, I believe, to joining a temple of Orlanth Lightbringer,
> say, than to "Initiation into the Orlanth Pantheon".
Good point. This initiation might well be of local significance only. If
the "Low Initiate" permanently (or often) moves away, she'd better become
full initiate first.
> How are you suggesting that this should work in relation to the existing
> 7M/individual Mother cults? Free Mother cult membership on payment of your
> 7M POW point? Or that the point be `transferable' to the separate cult,
> ending one's membership of 7M in the process?
There would have to be an initiation rite, a full fledged ceremony as it
is now. I'd rule a reusable ceremonial spell "Initiation" (as proposed in
RQ:AiG) would do the trick. Some high-magic by-effects (like "sacrifice all
MP but one" for the initiate, and possibly the "godfathers"/patrons as well)
ought to accompany the rite.
> Well, whichever: my point is that regarding "Full Initiates" to the locally
> important deities as flakes is a curious attitude, to say the least.
Not any more than regarding the local lawspeaker as odd guy only because he
is initiated to Lhankor Mhy.
> If
> Barntar is the locally most prevalent, why isn't becoming a (full) initiate
> of Barntar the Ideal State? Under no scheme currently existing or proposed
> does this do anything to lessen one's ability, if not duty, to participate
> in the worship of other gods. (Though admittedly Barntar may not have as
> many associates, but this may reflect local needs, or lack of them, too.)
IMO, if any worshippers of the Orlanth pantheon call for DI for
resurrection, Chalana Arroy will be called upon, maybe indirectly through
one's own patron deity, but I'm sure the name is included in the prayer.
If Teleportation is asked for, Mastakos will step in. If help against chaos
is needed, Urox is the source of the help.
> As to the question of which god is the most common, I suspect it'll vary
> significantly from group to group. For example in Esrolia Barntar is
> doubtless extremely popular, in Theyalan cities, Orlanth (Rex?) will be more
> so. Probably Orlanth will also be the most worshipped in the more warlike,
> and/or agriculturarily backward areas.
Agreed. Plus Odayla, Urox...
> Isn't Ernalda as the "women's god"
> fairly generally well-established, though?
Mahome is the goddess of the hearth, Esra the goddess of grain, Eiritha
of life stock, Uleria will appeal to some, but Ernalda will be mainstream.
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 3203
> Joerg Baumgartner challenges:
>>Tell me of one religious war which did not end up as a landgrabbing
>>venture.
> The most famous of all religious wars, the Crusades, neither started
> nor ended up as a landgrabbing venture. They did manage to conquer a
> tiny portion of the Holy Land, but it was intended as a liberation,
> not as a conquest -- the vast majority of the Crusaders, after
> fighting, returned home to the much more fertile territory of Europe.
> Also, the later crusades and wars were attempts to save the Holy Land
> from conquest by the saracens, not attempts to grab land for second
> sons and greedy European warlords.
The first Crusade ended by grabbing the land. The following Crusades were
made in support of the Outremer lords "in the upkeeping of Christian rule
in the Holy Country", partly fought for their creed, partly for the land.
>>No conquering overlord could ever afford to wipe out the natives.
> Alas, but also 'taint so. If the conquerors are moving in, rather
> than "conquering", the natives are commonly shoved aside or
> exterminated. The British in Australia, the American in America, the
> Japanese in Hokkaido, and the Bantu in Africa all follow this
> appalling pattern.
My conception of history exploitable for Glorantha usually ends around
1500-1600. The British and American colonialism I see therefore not as
valid. The Japanese conquest of Hokkaido also took place after contact
with a colonial power, the Portugese. The Bantu - these I must accept,
since I don't know a great deal about them.
>>Every Yelmite city is in constant internal intrigue, as well as
>>against other cities. Stealing by law is benevolent, is it?
> What are you talking about? They don't kill and murder one another,
> except under the tainted auspices of the Lunar Dart Competitions.
> "Stealing by Law" is taxation, which the Orlanthi engage in just as
> fully as the Yelm followers -- increased taxation is a feature of
> increased civilization, not a function of religion. Remember that one
> of the main grievances of the population against the Theyalan-based
> EWF was the heavy taxes it inflicted.
Stealing by law is a lot more than mere taxation - I thought of
blackmailing, imposing fees for crimes committed by someone else on
an opponent, etc etc. Yes, these are the finer points of civilisation
I'm talking about, and the EWF in its later stages (Third Council) was
guilty of these as well. Didn't they conquer Dara Happa slightly before?
Like the Second Council before them, upright Theylans became tainted by
Dara Happan infamy.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de