From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 02 Mar 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris) Subject: "Cultural" Initiation Message-ID: <199403020012.AA02213@batman.b11.ingr.com> Date: 2 Mar 94 00:12:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3218 Boris here, back from a week in Negril, to find a pile of mail and my name bandied about ;-) vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) wrote: >>>I'd agree there are indeed these two separate aspects to Initiation, >>>cultural and religious. And at a push, I'd agree one could go though >>>the former without the later. But why is it necessary to tinker with the >>>(cult) initiation rules to do this? > >>Because that is where the problem first arises. > > Not in my opinion. To claim that what`s needed is "cultural initiation", > and then to rewrite the _cult_ initiation rules is surely to confuse > the issue. To reiterate: if we grant that one can undergo initiation > into adulthood and the tribe without becoming an initiate in the religious > sense, what's wrong with the existing rules? Ah, there's the rub. According to King of Sartar, initiation into the culture (i.e. passage into adulthood) is a religious initiation. One is still considered a child until one has initiated into the *religion*. However, the culture's religion is not necessarily any one cult of that religion. The analog someone (sorry, forgot who) made to the various saints' cults in the Catholic church is apt; most catholics are just run of the mill catholics, pray to the Trinity and offer devotions to whatever saints seem appropriate to the task at hand. Some devote themselves in various degrees to a particular saint, from devotions or daily prayers, all the way through joining various monastic or clerical orders. I see theyalan society as very similar. Most folks are just Orlanthi, and worship the whole pantheon; they'll drop some clacks in Storm Bull's bowl if they hear of broo raids, take turnips to the White Lady if the kid is sick, etc. Some feel the need to tie themselves more strongly to one deity, and thus initiate into deeper mysteries. Now the common folk are not *lay members*, again according to KoS, because they have initiated into the culture's religion; they have ties to the gods and they worship as initiates. This is the reason I proposed the "low initiate" level; according to the literature there seems to be a step beyond lay membership that isn't quite the full "cult" initiate level. >>I agree. Only, as the Seven Mothers example shows, this is also possible to >>a group of deities. But if the new deity is one of the group, it can claim >>the former link exclusively. > > Ick-ick-ick. This would make sense if one were losing "Low Initiate" > status in the remaining cults (though I think I'd still dislike it), but > Boris stated that (generally) one wouldn't. If Low Initiation is intended > to be a non-magical status (Boris suggested Rune magic wouldn't necessarily > be available), why should POW sacrifice be necessary? To establish ties to the gods of the pantheon, allowing the low initiate's magics points to help establish the link required for the priests to learn their spells. To be part of the "seven times seven times two" worshippers needed to regain those spells. The low initiate may not get rune magic, but would enable the priests to sacrifice for and recover theirs, and so all would benefit from their worship. If they were just lay members, many more people would be needed, more than most clans would be able to supply. This is the main point of the Low Initiate change; most orlanthi *do not* go to cities to worship. Most *do not* go to tribal gatherings to worship, or do so only rarely. Most orlanthi stay at home and worship at their clan altars and shrines; does this mean that they can't even learn spirit magic? No, it merely means that most orlanthi are not dedicated to a single deity, but worship all the clan's pantheon, including ancestral heroes and local spirits, and only the priests, lords and godi dedicate themselves to one deity. Thus communally they all help establish the divine link, which they couldn't do if they were each a member of only one of a half dozen cults. > Well, whichever: my point is that regarding "Full Initiates" to the locally > important deities as flakes is a curious attitude, to say the least. If > Barntar is the locally most prevalent, why isn't becoming a (full) initiate > of Barntar the Ideal State? Under no scheme currently existing or proposed > does this do anything to lessen one's ability, if not duty, to participate > in the worship of other gods. (Though admittedly Barntar may not have as > many associates, but this may reflect local needs, or lack of them, too.) I'm not sure whether becoming a full initiate of a cult would sever ties to the rest of the pantheon or not; it probably depends on the cult and the clan. Becoming a Humakti probably would do so in most clans. Becoming a Barntari might not; that's one of the things I hope to get threshed out here. I tend to think that, in general, it does; any choice has it's bad points. And if so, someone who becomes a full initiate of even gentle Barntar is a fanatic, because they have limited themselves because of their religious convictions. This doesn't mean that they are despised; the godi are needed and respected. But ask any catholic, while the priest is respected, he's still not really *normal*. Becoming a full initiate would be the first step towards priesthood or lordship; not everyone goes all the way, but it's on that path. And most folks don't see the need to start down it, and see any who do so as at least somewhat strange. Necessary, but still strange. ---- Boris --------------------- From: malcolm109@aol.com Subject: Earthshakers Message-ID: <9403012019.tn164027@aol.com> Date: 2 Mar 94 01:19:20 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3219 Sandy...I direct this question towards you as the the expert on Gloranthan creatures and races. Just what are the Earthshakers? A unit of them exists in the Dragon Pass game. The illustration shows a hulking man-shaped creature. The only other reference to these creatures that I have found in my admitedly incomplete reference library comes from KoS p 103 describing Dragon Pass after the Dragonkill War. "In those days the world was like before humans were made. The old people, and the nature beings, throve without the cutting plow or the racket of bells to drive them off. The Earthshakers multiplied, sometimes tended by dragonewts." Can you help? Malcolm... --------------------- From: jjm@zycor.lgc.com (johnjmedway) Subject: Dara Happans *did* wear pants, and maybe still do Message-ID: <9403020225.AA26584@hp0.zycor.lgc.com> Date: 2 Mar 94 02:25:19 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3220 On the question of Dara Happans in pants/trousers/whatevers: For a while I have been sifting through The Glorious Reascent of Yelm looking for the reference to when one of the DH emperors brings advanced trouser technology to the Dara Happans. I knew I saw it at Origins. I knew it. (I *really* hate it when I cannot find a reference that I know exists!) Today I got my answer, in a letter from Greg: "Manimat led his people into the wilderness. away from the last outposts of civilization which had attracted armies of monsters. he summoned the last of the Aetheric Gods to be his protector, and his own family settled in Darjiin. Manimat was the one who discarded the ancient toga in favor of pants, like the reindeer people wore, at this time." -- quoted from the List of Emperors (not in the current GRoY distribution) Good, I *did* see this, and didn't make it up. Additional comments from Greg: However, I also believe that there was a reverse trend, perhaps initiated by Khordavu or his son of (sic) grandson, which re-introduced the toga to the renaissance DHers. I imagine the conservative DH folk to be wearing the togas, and the modern Lunars shunning tradition for practicality. Of course, since DH has been getting warmer since the Lunars took over, the practical aspects may be diminishing, making pants be just another thorn in the debate. He is, of course, wrong. Personally, I didn't like the idea when I first saw it back in July. Then I decided, OK, why not, but I had envisioned the conservative Dara Happans in somewhat Indian dress, with a long tunic over baggy trousers. I had thought the mod Lunars has raised the hem-lines, tossed the pants, and brought other horrid abominations (maybe the mini-tunic for women?) to a land previously known for decorum, propriety and covering every last bit of meat with cloth. BTW: This discussion belongs in the daily more than the playtest list. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- | john_medway@zycor.lgc.com | Landmark Graphics Corp | 512.292.2325 | --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------- From: appel@erzo.berkeley.edu (Shannon Appel) Subject: Re: Battle Formations for Defending Charges / Rune Defense Message-ID: <199403020744.XAA08387@erzo.berkeley.edu> Date: 1 Mar 94 15:44:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3221 >Maybe now I can convine the Pavis Orlanthi to start using the Sky Rune >formation to stop being embarrassed by the Zebra Riders. Never! The Brave Orlanthi of Glorantha would die before forming themselves into the cursed symbol of the decadent universe which Orlanth himself brought down. Now an Air Rune, that would be something else, and probably nearly as good of a combat tactic. Shannon ---------------------