From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 22 Mar 1994, part 2
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Antti's elves
Message-ID:
Date: 21 Mar 94 14:37:32 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3360
Antti Lahtinen in X-RQ-ID: 3347
Hyv"a p"aiv"a, Antti,
> When I was reading through Mike Dickison's post about elves, I
> noticed that though his ideas about elf physiology were interesting,
> they were completely incompatible with those given in Elder Secretes.
> If elves of this kind were to be installed in Glorantha, the Elder
> Secrets would have to be completely rewritten.
With the current efforts at RQ:AiG, a certain rewrite with other regards
than just rules seems justified. I'd like more plant-like, less
Tolkienesque aldryami, like the one in the _beautiful_ illustration
to Hut of Darkness in Tales 9.
> I don't like the idea of elves being shit-eating walking composts, so
> I greatly prefer the way the elves are described in Elder Secrets and
> 'In Shadows under Red Moon'. The 'shadows tells very much about the
> vronkali, and it does not directly disagree with ES in any place.
Why, it's true that a plant needs different nourishment than an animal.
While I agree that part of aldryami cuisine will consist of maturing, i.e.
composting their food. The manure bit I'd relegate to spoof, a wacky rumour
for elf-haters.
What is this "Shadows under Red Moon" you mention? Something in Finnish?
(Even if so, how can I get it?)
> However Mike Dickison's ideas seem to fit to slorfings, who are
> 'relatives of ferns and spore-bearing plants'. See pages 28-29 in
> Elder Races Book.
Or more unruly runners?
I strongly disliked the Runner illu in Gloranthan Bestiary. Too much
monkey, too little plant. I challenge the artistically gifted
readers of this list to send me their plant-like aldryami, maybe as
a contest to be held in Free INT. Any participant with a printed picture
will get a free issue of that Free INT (for what it's worth, it's in
German). I think the three English language zines (Tales, RQ-Adventures,
Codex) could use this stuff, too...
> About True Elves (Mreli, Vronkali, and Embyli)
> 'ELVES: All true Aldryami include a good-sized highly intelligent
> form: the classic elves' (page 29, Elder Races Book)
Plus, according to Elder Races Book, an assortment of dryads and awakened
trees. Dryads, vronkali, mreli, embyli and runners are the mobile,
mostly intelligent plants.
In Tolkien terms (I am still a fan) the Aldryami are human-sized ents
rather than Quenya. The Gloranthan Quenya equivalent would be the immortal
humans: Vithelans, Luatha, Brithini, Vadeli, the yet immortal Agimori.
A nice bunch...
> According to the 'shadows, aldrya created the vronkali using the life
> force (POW ?) of living evergreen trees as raw material. The vronkali
> resemble plant only in the beginning and in the end of their long
> lives. They are born as seed, and they begin to have plant-like
> features only when they are dying of old age.
According to GoG, Aldrya toyed around with the Plant rune and the Man
Rune and produced the Elves. ES credits Flamal, not Aldrya.
The use of the trees' life force (quite possibly POW; I picture most
POW-spirits as remnants of plants) resembles the wyter concept from KoS
and regimental magic spirits (as I view them, no Glorantha proof implied).
After all, aldryami depend on the trees. Possibly the trees "worship" their
mobile protectors and give them their life force.
> The elves have bones, muscle, skin and blood, but these are composed
> of vegetable matter. However, an elf has less things in common with a
> carrot than human has with a rabbit. Elves are not true plants, for
> they do not have roots and can not take nourishment from soil and
> sunlight, so they have to eat other plants to survive.
I agree with this. However, their muscle and skin tissue will be mostly
cellulose, not protein (do Lunars make paper from caught aldryami rebels?).
Mobile aldryami (so-called elves', runners', and possibly dryads')
metabolism resembles that of plants in their darkness phase, when
they use up glucose and oxygen in order to produce energy - very much like
animals do.
> Elvish blood
> is 'very dark in colour, with a slight greenish cast', probably it is
> copper-based, opposed to iron-based human blood.
> The greenish colour of elven skin and hair comes from the copper, not
> from chlorophyll, in a similar way as human skin and hair have red
> colour from iron.
> As iron is poisonous to elves, they do not eat meat, or anything that
> contains iron-based blood.
The chemist and mineralogist in me climbs the trees: you mix (chemical)
elements and chemical substances. Haemoglobine (sp?) consists of a
prphyrine complex similar to chlorophyll, but with Fe2+ as central ion in
blood, and Mg2+ in chlorophyll. So, if elf blood is based on another metal
_ion_ than iron, it is magnesium, not copper.
Iron which will damage Elder Races is the _metal_, not its ionic compounds.
I personally blame the magnetism which interferes with their spirit
structure, but that is my non-Glorantha interpretation.
Copper acts as a POT 20 slow acting poison to plants, because its _ions_
block cellular processes. A slash with an axe won't qualify, but a copper
or bronze nail hammered into the plant (including aldryami) will.
> Of the three races of true elves, the vronkali are the most human-
> like, thought some would say that vronkali do not resemble humans,
> but _humans_ resemble vronkali, for elves existed long before man.
> Unlike the mreli and embyli, vronkali have two sexes and do not
> mate with dryads. The vronkali live, mate and die quite like humans,
> but their culture and concept of life is alien to humans. A very few
> humans have understood the way of aldryami and have been accepted
> in the cult of aldrya and subcult of the High King Elf.
Total agreement here.
> Half elves are extremely rare, but apparently they do exists. One
> well-known half elf was (or actually is) Pavis. (One other half-elf
> is described in RQ II 'Rune Masters' book, I just can't remember his
> name.)
Pavis was a result of inter-racial breeding as was possible in the times
of the three Theyalan councils. Dorastor even tells us about a marriage
between a human (Gwalynkus the Good, who also claimed dwarvish ancestry)
and a Gold Wheel Dancer (p.6f). Apparently heavy Harmony-magic is
necessary to produce such cross-breeds to breed true. That the EWF
possessed such magic is shown in the zebra-tribe's history in Pavis.
> The 'pollination dances', etc. are probably something that humans have
> completely misunderstood, or those stories are just 'urban legends'
> made by travellers who were hunting for free drinks in exchange for
> wild stories.
The aldryami probably tell similar tales about the Gloranthan equivalent
to Easter fires, probably on Uleria's high holy day (Godday, Disorder Week,
Sea Season). With some truth in them...
> Dryads are capable of creating temporary bodies of trees, so there
> can be 'apple dryads', 'cherry dryads' or even 'pangwood dryads',
> but elves are not capable of this, and can not copy the properties
> of their familiar plant type. Oakwood elves, birch elves, etc. have
> slightly different height and colouring, but the differences are not
> so striking.
They certainly don't blossom for reproduction (using insects) or bear
fruit on fruit stands outside their bodies.
> Because mreli are active all summer and hibernate during winter, they
> very seldom bother to build any shelters or houses. Before winter
> they pack all their belongings in wooden or ceramic containers and
> bury them for next summer.
I'd have thought they'd use tree hollows as safes :-)
Mreli surely are less human in biology and conduct than are vronkali.
I would think that they are generally less human in appearance, although
it may be that in a certain age certain females may seem alluring to
humans, and maybe even dally with them. With males interacting with
dryads, the females might look for compensation, and lure humans...
BTW, do the Poisonthorn elves (which seem to have connections to
possibly evergreen thorny plants, like holly) qualify as vronkali, mreli
or yet a different race of aldryami? Are the Hellwood elves of Dorastor
chaos-warped mreli?
> Embyli also do not have any buildings. They are active all year, and
> have daily rest periods. However, as they live in warm tropical
> forests they have no need for any kind of shelters.
They surely need strategic plantations like thorn hedges against unfriendly
humans, and the vine telegraph described in this forum seems to make sense
for such a vast empire as the Errinoru jungle once comprised.
Embyli life seems more orderly than mreli life, with only one form of
females. Embyli males are primarily warriors and protectors for the
more stationary females (dryads) and the truly stationary plants of
their woods.
> Green elves live in northern forests and are active all year. In summer
> they do not need buildings, but during winter they need some kind of
> shelter and clothing. However, humans have never seen and elf-made
> building.
Aldryami "buildings", apart from inherited ones like Bloodstone Fort
in Dorastor, are likely to consist of labyrinth-like parks, structures of
living plants rather than buildings. Look at their ships for inspiration,
and at the ElfQuest holts (although those "elves" have little else in
common with aldryami, more with telmori).
What I really miss are more distinguished runner-types. Not just the cute
subhuman "pets", but also other animal-imitations, up to a plant equivalent
of a war triceratops. Wartrees are fine for defense, but not for conquering.
Fronela beware of aldryami breeding war-runners!
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz
Subject: Aldryami again
Message-ID: <199403210847.AA08400@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 22 Mar 94 09:50:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3361
Henk - could you forward the following to the Daily please.
-------
Firstly, thanks everyone for the positive comments, both in the Daily and
via e-mail. A fair few people seem to be dissatisfied with the aldryami as
presented in Elder Races. Here's some addenda to "Happy Little Elves".
1) The title was a Simpsons reference; "The Happy Little Elves" is one
of Maggie and Lisa's favourite videos, starring happy little green men in
green tunics. The wider reference was an ironic one to the stock fantasy
elves (not just Tolkien's, as was pointed out) which I'll refer to as
Generic Elves Requiring Personalities (GERPs). There is no Gloranthan term
that refers to all elves and only to elves, but "aldryami" is a reasonable
approximation, only as inaccurate as the widely-used "mostali". I don't
personally think of aldryami as very happy - more like Dr Spock on acid.
2) Several people pointed out I had overestimated aldryami
flammability. They are quite rightly no more flammable than humans or a
live tree (question: what should you have to roll to ignite the latter?).
Fire is still a no-no with them. Is there any aldryami mythical analogue to
the Zorak Zoran conquest of fire, or is it really absolutely verboten? I
would say the latter as a rule, and the former if you want an interesting
scenario.
3) How does "Happy Little Elves" relate to Elder Secrets?
Lahtinen Antti Jussi wrote:
When I was reading through Mike Dickison's post about elves, I
noticed that though his ideas about elf physiology were interesting,
they were completely incompatible with those given in Elder Secretes.
If elves of this kind were to be installed in Glorantha, the Elder
Secrets would have to be completely rewritten.
I really have to disagree. I've just been through Elder Secrets with a
fine-tooth comb, and can find nothing that would prevent a GM using Sandy
and Greg's and my stuff simultaneously. The closest thing to a clash is the
section on GERP diet, which deals much more with leaves and roots and less
with dung and dirt. I rationalise any differences between me and ES thus:
ES deals with how aldryami prefer themselves to be perceived by humans, my
stuff with how they "really" are. But there's no incompatibility there.
Anyway, what's so great about the Elder Secrets version of aldryami? I
think it's the least interesting part of the whole box. If it gets
rewritten one day, so much the better. Glorantha isn't fixed in stone, as
any reader of the Daily surely knows. IMO, Paul Honigmann's elf psychology
plus my elf physiology makes the game more interesting without violating
the spirit or consistency of the game world. Certainly I think it's better
than the socialist environmentalist dancing poets of ES. BTW, crazy as this
may sound, I know GMs who didn't like the "new trolls" presented in
TrollPak, preferring the sword-fodder orc-analogues in the RQII rulebook.
But it's their world. The Greg Police aren't going to come calling.
4) Aldryami Carnivores
Lahtinen Antti Jussi wrote:
As iron is poisonous to elves, they do not eat meat, or anything that
contains iron-based blood.
Even if we accept that the iron found in Earth human blood is the same
element as Gloranthan ur-metal (which, ES explicitly states, we should
not), this is demonstrably not true. Firstly, good old Saw-Tooth Korvan is
on record as being a meat eater (Elder Races Book p 52). Secondly, both
goblins and yellow elves can eat meat (ERB p 32). Thirdly, iron is
poisonous to Uz too, but they are most certainly not vegetarians.
Two rationales follow: If the ur-metal in blood is present in a high enough
concentration to be poisonous to aldryami (and trolls), it is only
poisonous in the bloodstream. There are a number of toxins which can be
neutralised quite effectively by digestion - my old boss at the nursery
used to drink a cup of pesticide to demonstrate why we didn't need gloves
and masks and other expensive safety equipment when spraying (actually, we
were breathing the stuff, so he was wrong, but I digress). So the reason
why aldryami don't eat meat is probably a digestive problem/social
taboo/religious prohibition. (Anyone out there have any thoughts?) But I'd
avoid the whole argument, else we'll have power-gamer players dipping their
arrows in blood.
5) Do Aldryami Photosynthesize?
I would say yes; if you have green leafy hair, Ockham's Razor suggests it's
because of chlorophyll, not copper-based blood flowing through the leaves.
It does make sense for aldryami to be connected to copper in some way, but
it seems more parsimonious for them to have chlorophyll too. I don't think
they can possibly gain enough energy from photosynthesis to do very much;
hence they have to eat and make compost.
Rob Heinsoo's idea that aldryami are seeking the lost power of unaided
photosynthesis is a much better one, though. Mythically it is spot on; the
death of Flamal may be the equivalent of the Uz Flight from Hell (not the
Trollkin Curse, we're talking Godtime stuff here) or the Mostali Breaking
of the World Machine. I like this idea of a symmetry between the three
Elder Races. Special relationship with iron, all cannibals; can anyone find
some more?
If aldryami can't photosynthesize on their own, they are to some degree
parasitic on the rest of the plant kingdom (like other parasitic plants,
some of which, like Rafflesia, the biggest flower in the world, live their
lives underground and have no chlorophyll; others, like Mistletoe, have
green leaves but extract water and minerals from their host). This
logically makes aldryami the most animal-like of the plants, as indeed they
are. As a good God Learner taxonomist, I would put them in a separate
division in the kingdom Plantae, the Anthropophyta. Of course, evolutionary
taxonomy breaks down in a creationist world, but there you go. To any
biologists out there: do the Malkioni use phenetic or phylogenetic
classification? Let's hope they're not cladists, who certainly have
crusaded enough in the past :-)
6) Can you have Half-Elves?
My gut reaction: no. You can't have kids with a plant. But then again, they
do have the Man rune, and there is all this magic stuff kicking around
and... Contrary to rumour, there is no half-elf character in the Rune
Masters book. Pavis is the only known half-elf; KoS p182 mentions someone
having sex with an Aldryami in Karse circa 700 or so S.T. (Probably not
Pavis's mum; he was born about 800 in Adari. But she could have
moved...Hey, do I get a prize if Greg confirms this?) My personal concern:
if you can have half-elves and half-trolls, why not half-dwarves and
half-newts (and half-ducks, and half-morokanths and...)? Just as
biologically plausible, but we're edging close to that Other Game here, in
which I once played in a party with a half-orc, half-ogre and
half-halfling. Yes, he was called a quarterling.
My fix: inter-species hybrids only possible under EWF/God Learner meddling.
Theoretically they should be sterile, but <> Pavis had kids...
BTW, what's this "Shadows Under the Red Moon" that's being quoted? Never
heard of it - perhaps something I've missed in the flood of new RQ
publications :-)
7) Final Note (and sorry this has been so long)
Elves are not environmentalists in the same way 1990s Western humans are.
Aldryami destroy farms, kill loggers and sow fields with weeds for exactly
the same reasons humans cut down trees and burn forests. Their motives are
no more noble - feeding their families and expanding their power base. Now
that should get some flames.
Mike Dickison
Adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Dickison adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz An adzebill is a
Phone: +64 (4) 384-1982 big, extinct NZ bird
Snail mail: 22 Devon St, Wellington, New Zealand that....oh never mind.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From: staats@MIT.EDU
Subject: Getting Material for RQ
Message-ID: <9403211511.AA03212@milanese.MIT.EDU>
Date: 21 Mar 94 15:11:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3362
Chris and RQ-Dom,
Here in the US there are three *great* mail order sources of material.
Lou Zocchi in Gulfport, Mississippi; War Games West in Albequ.(sp?), New Mexico;
and Crazy Igor's in Rouchester(sp?), New York. All three take phone in orders
and credit cards/money orders/personal checks. Lou Zocchi is the best of the
three in my experience for getting the out of print things from for a reasonable
price. Lou has also been involved with the hobby since its inception and really
knows his stuff.
Sorry about the spellings and no addresses/phone numbers! I'm buried at
work these days!
Let me know if you have success with these sources.
In service,
Rich
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From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: White Wolf #41
Message-ID: <9403211656.AA09056@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 21 Mar 94 16:56:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3363
Mike Dawson here, not Kirsten Niemann.
David Cheng wrote:
"It seems someone read my "Gaming Evangelism" essay in the RQ-Con
Program Guide. I just got WW #41 today, and there's a 2 page article
on which Malkioni sects teach which sorcery spells. Nobody but
Avalon Hill is credited, however. Now, I just don't see Jack Dott writing
this kind of Gloranthan lore, so does anyone want to fess up?"
I would guess that this is some version of something that I sent Ken
many months ago. Ken wanted some freebie handouts as point of sale
teasers for RQ.
Is the article mostly just long lists of spells? That's mostly what I
wrote.
So, Ken, is it mine, and do I get paid for it sometime? And do I get
paid more for not getting credit for it?
More shameless Codex info======
Thanks to David for all the nice words about Codex. A word of warning
to procrastinators: Issue #1 will sell out in the next 10 days or so
at the rate things are going. That unfortunately does not mean that
subscriptions have picked up--I sold over 60% of the first run though
face-to-face contact at RQ Con.
Won't you be upset if you have to spend L 5.00 (at least US$7.50) to
get a copy of #1 via the UK printing?
I'm trying not to clog up the daily with blather about Codex, but
David's comment that I was being TOO quiet makes me wonder if I
should do a bit more hornblowing. Sick of me yet?
I also wonder if there is anyone out there who has consciously decided
NOT to subscribe. If so, I would really appreciate hearing from you
about your reasons. From my point of view, the only reason I can
figure a member of this list would not want to subscribe is if they run
non-gloranthan RQ or are just too broke. If there are other
reasons, I want to know!
I would like to find out who did the Dundracon poster that
advertised all the RQ magazines available. I really appreciate the
free publicity.
Also, J. DeGon wrote to me, saying that the person who did the
poster was "very clever." Was there something on the poster that
DeGon didn't mention in his post the other day? What was so clever?
Enough for now,
Mike
--
------------
Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com
for information about Codex Magazine.
UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk
"Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha" .
------------------------------------------------------/_\