From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 31 Mar 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
[Kind request: Please refrain from additional speculation
about Greg's announcement on RQ:AiG. I'm crossposting
messages from the rq-playtest list to the Daily. This
should be sufficient for now. Let's wait for Greg. -HL]
---------------------
From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe)
Subject: STEVE MARTIN'S REPLY TO OLIVER
Message-ID: <934CF144B3@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 30 Mar 94 09:18:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: rq-playtest/2972
The following is a reply to Oliver's post on the rejection of the
current RAG manuscript. I would like to take the time to point out
that we are all still working for the same goal and a little
rationality, something both sides of this need more of, can go a long
way. I suggest people refrain from idle speculation until Greg is
given a chance to list his problems, hopefully early next week. Then
we on this list should get to work on them so we can get RAG out as
soon as possible. I also don't think it is proper or will do any good
to harass Greg on this matter.
From Stephen Martin.....
To the RQ IV Mailing List
I am sending this letter in response to Oliver Jovanovic's attack on
me earlier this week. While I do not have direct E-Mail access, I do
have a few friends who post and receive messages for me. Although I
feel it is petty for Oliver to attack me through a medium in which he
knows I have no direct access, I am more concerned with the other, more
important, problems he addresses. Since I have not yet actually seen the
letter in question, merely had it read to me over the phone, I will try
and address only those issues with which I find the most serious fault.
First of all, if Oliver feels that he is attacking me, I think it
is my duty to point out that the attack reflects worse on him and on Greg
Stafford than it does on me. If Oliver believes that I dictate to Greg
what he is supposed to approve of or think, he is seriously mistaken, as
Greg would be the first to tell him.
Second, I did NOT tell or even suggest that Greg look at the RQ IV
rules. I suggested that the manuscript had some seriuos problems with the
Gloranthan information it presented, especially the Lunar materials (since
Greg is working on the Lunar Empire now), and that he should review those
parts of the manuscript to ensure they did not contradict his current work.
I am very glad that he also looked at the rules, but that was not my
suggestion.
RAG is the first RuneQuest product that Greg has actually read
through since Elder Secrets or possibly Sun County. Contrary to popular
belief, he did not even do more than glance at Dorastor. He trusts Ken
Rolston, Nick Brooke, and a few other people enough that he has seen no
need to review the RQ products closely. I convinced him that this was not
the case, since he will be blamed for any later contradictions, whether or
not he was aware of the problem at the time. This is the main reason that
he looked at RAG so closely. When he gave approval 3 months ago, he had
not read more than a few pages, if that - I would guess that he merely
assumed that, if Ken liked it, then it was fine. I disagreed, and so here
we are.
As to Oliver's assertion that I do not play or run RuneQuest, it is
both untrue and irrelevent. While I do not play regularly, and have not for
years, I do play when I have the time - I just don't have the large amount
of free time Oliver apparently does.
But the fact that I do not play regularly does not mean I do not
know the rules. I don't play Dragon Pass regularly, but I just finished
rewriting Nomad Gods to the Dragon Pass rules for Chaosium and Oriflam,
and no one to whom I sent copies expressed any indication that I did not
know the rules. But even that is irrelevent - what I know VERY WELL is
Glorantha, and that has always been my prime concern with RAG. I may
comment on the rules out of a sincere desire to see the book prosper, but
that is mostly so that it does not come back to haunt Greg.
As David Dunham said, the idea that RAG might drive down Greg's
sale of other Gloranthan materials is ludicrous - RQ and Glorantha do a
good job of complementing each other's sales. My purpose in being the
apparently most violent detractor of RAG is to ensure that its appearance
does NOT drive down sale of Greg's Gloranthan material. The only way it
could do that is if it was a bad product.
One point Oliver fails to mention in his letter is Greg's reasons
for retracting his approval of the product. While I only glanced at the
letter he sent Ken Rolston, Jack Dott, and Oliver, the main points
involved how badly written the book were, the unnecessary rules changes,
and the failure to improve on RQ III. There were other points, but I leave
those to Oliver, Ken, or Greg to discuss. My point is that Oliver should
not be blaming the failure of his manuscript on me or Greg - he should
take Greg's criticism as it was intended. In the letter, Greg did NOT say
that he would not approve of RAG in the future - merely that the current
draft was not publishable (my words, not his). He does recommend against
it, but he also expresses his willingness to work with Oliver, Mike, and
crew to improve it, if they wish to continue with it.
A final point I feel I must make is that I have spoken with
Oliver frequently about RAG over the last two years. I told him ahead
of the time of my concerns, both rules-wise and Gloranthan, and of my
intention to convince Greg to take a closer look at the manuscript.
Oliver said to me that he was glad Greg would take such a close look.
When I told Oliver that some of his Gloranthan materials would end up
being contradicted by Greg in the next year, he said that he did not
care, and that it HAD to stay in. When Greg then said that it was not
correct, and should be removed, Oliver of course complied. It is only
now, when the entire project is starting to come unwound, that he
starts blaming me for events which he knew about ahead of time, and
said he welcomed. My only advice to Oliver is that he can not have it
both ways - you can't welcome comments only when they agree with you,
and ignore them when they don't.
If Oliver had problems with my actions, he should at least have had
the courtesy to tell me ahead of time. Also, giving out Greg's E-Mail
address and telling people to write Greg was not cool. I have tried to be
friendly, polite, and positive throughout my discussions with Oliver, and he
has become increasingly defensive and beligerent. I think he needs to
remember that Glorantha is Greg's world AND GREG'S PROPERTY, to do with as
he wishes, and be thankful that it has been shared with us for so long, in
whatever form. Oliver's questionable crediting and rewriting of material
are very strong symptoms of the problems inherent in RAG.
I have gone on longer than I intended, and been more vindictive
than I had planned. Perhaps that is a sign of how much this means to me. If
Oliver feels that I am responsible for Greg's change of heart, he is wrong -
Oliver himself is. I just hope he realizes it before he destroys RAG, RQ,
and himself.
Stephen Martin
AKA Troy Bankert
---------------------
From: gharris@Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: Re: RQ:AiG being Gregged
Message-ID: <94726B32DB@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 31 Mar 94 02:20:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: rq-playtest/2974
Just heard the news, have read Greg's message via Henk, as well
as Oliver's follow-up note and Mr. Martin's reply to that. A few comments.
I feel it is unfortunate that it has taken Greg Stafford this long
to review and express his disapproval of this project as it now stands.
However, I don't think has tardiness is an excuse to foist the blame for
this unfortunate development on to Stephen Martin or Greg Stafford. If
one steps back and looks at RQ:AiG, one can see that it departs from RQ3
in many more ways than is really required to improve the product; I
have myself repeatedly railed against what I too saw as unnecessary rule
changes, and have seen the overwhelming tide of opinion of the playtesters
ignored by the authors of this project timemore than once.
I think if the scope of this project had been kept to a reasonable
level, say a minor adjustment of the fatigue rules and simply changing
sorcery from free-INT limited to skill/10 limited, and a fairly simple
character creation system inserted, while converting the examples from
Cormac the bland even back to Good Old Rurik, then this whole thing pro-
bably would have been done and out by Gencon *last* year. Unfortunately,
the tendency to keep tinkering with something beyond the need to do so
seems to have affected many (it has affected me, I know), and an apparent
desire to move beyond what is already known of Glorantha without making
certain it would not go against the desires of that world's creator, has
led us to this unfortunate pass.
Well, at least I am freed of the necessity of writing up my
copious criticisms of the RQ:AiG sorcery rules.
--
George W. Harris gharris@jade.tufts.edu
Dept. of Mathematics Tufts University
Doesn't the fact that there are *exactly* 50 states seem a little suspicious?
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Re: STEVE MARTIN'S REPLY TO OLIVER
Message-ID: <94AB762E69@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 30 Mar 94 16:39:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: rq-playtest/2975
It seems that more than a few people are getting pretty hot under the
collar. I'd like to ask everybody to hold off on sending e-mail to
Greg. Let him explain himself, and maybe in the mean time someone can
forward the letter that Steve mentions in which GS explains his
reasons for witholding approval of RQAIG.
I know that Steve Martin (not the comedian and not the singer) has
been involved in RQ and things Gloranthan for quite a while, and while
his current project to rewrite Nomad Gods for the Dragon Pass rules
may not prove that he knows RuneQuest (as he seems to claim it does)
I'm sure he's played his share of RQ. He was at RQ-Con after all. I
met him there and he seemed a reasonable fellow.
> I am sending this letter in response to Oliver Jovanovic's attack on
> me earlier this week.
I think that much of Stephen's post was unnecessary roughness against
Oliver and he should be penalized ten yards. Greg Stafford's e-mail
address, for instance, is already common knowledge among the internet
community, and Oliver didn't post it---Henk did, attatched to Greg's own
mysterious mini-announcement. I appreciate the informative parts of his
post and am glad that Eric forwarded it, warts and all. Anyway, it seems
the story behind GS putting a stop to RQAIG in its current form is that
Stephen noticed the extensive Lunar information in RQAIG and asked Greg
to check it to make sure it wasn't totally off-base, Greg reviewed it
and came down hard on it as he usually does, and Greg read the rules and
didn't like them or the way they were written. Ergo, he won't approve
the Gloranthan parts of the game.
I think there are several paths open for the development project without
dropping it entirely.
1. Wait for GS to work with Oliver and the rest of the gang of four to
polish their writing and fix the rules to where they're solid, and fix
the Glorantha stuff too. This assumes GS takes them seriously enough to
put in a lot of editorial effort, and to be blunt I'm not certain he
does.
2. Get rid of the Glorantha stuff and make RQ4 an alternate earth
product. This has always been attractive to me, since I think that good
earth-based rules can be used on Glorantha too, while the converse may
not be true. If it doesn't have anything to do with Glorantha then Greg
doesn't have veto power on it, at least that's my understanding of the
AH/Chaosium agreement. This should be a minimal rules set, a RQ-Lite.
Follow it up with an agressive release schedule of culture packs so
people can make up characters from various regions in Glorantha.
3. Publish a RQ3 expansion set with the rule changes that are really
necessary from RQAIG and trash the rest.
4. Get somebody whose writing and imagination are trusted by GS and let
that person write RQAIG. Who?
In any case it will be necessary to put out new versions of GoG,
pantheon packs with long-form cults in them, culture packs for various
lands, and so on.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite
---------------------
From: appel@erzo.berkeley.edu (Shannon Appel)
Subject: Re: STEVE MARTIN'S REPLY TO OLIVER
Message-ID: <9537E46249@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 30 Mar 94 10:58:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: rq-playtest/2980
>I know that Steve Martin (not the comedian and not the singer) has
>been involved in RQ and things Gloranthan for quite a while, and while
>his current project to rewrite Nomad Gods for the Dragon Pass rules
>may not prove that he knows RuneQuest (as he seems to claim it does)
>I'm sure he's played his share of RQ. He was at RQ-Con after all. I
>met him there and he seemed a reasonable fellow.
Actually, Steve has had considerable RQ & Glorantha credits,
including:
Sun County (a smidgeon of writing, as Troy Bankert)
River of Cradles (error trapping & contributing design, as Troy Bankert)
Shadows on the Borderland (playtesting & error trapping, as Troy Bankert)
Dorastor (writing, playtesting & error trapping, as Troy Bankert)
In addition, Steve recently revised Nomad Gods, for publication by
Oriflam in France and is finishing up Lords of Terror, a Dorastan book
of chaos cults, to be released after Strangers in Prax. Steve is also
editing Heroes of the King, a Chaosium anthology about Argrath.
As a side note, Steve wasn't at RQ-Con, though he did attend the last
Convulsion.
Shannon
--
Ask Me About RQ-Con 2
---------------------
From: JOVANOVIC@CUCCFA.CCC.COLUMBIA.EDU
Subject: Adventures in Glorantha
Message-ID: <97D02920FB@marketing.wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 30 Mar 94 19:50:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: rq-playtest/2984
First off, I would like to say that my initial response to Greg
Stafford's announcement was triggered more by shock and disbelief
than calculated reason. At the time, I had been talking to Greg for
several days about some negative comments he had regarding
Adventures in Glorantha, and in the course of our discussions
came to agreement on a number of them. He assured me we would
continue our discussion upon his return from the GAMA trade show, and
I felt the matter could then be resolved to the satisfaction of the
parties concerned, without disrupting the progress that has been made
so far.
You can imagine my reaction to coming across Greg's post in that frame
of mind, particularly with no advance warning from Greg.
I regret suggesting that Stephen Martin, or anyone other than Greg Stafford
should share the responsibility for Greg's action. Greg, and Greg alone,
was responsible for the decision to make the announcement he did.
Unfortunately, Greg chose to make his post just prior to leaving for
the GAMA trade show, where he will be out of touch for the rest of the
week. Therefore, I can't really say what was responsible for his
decision to make the announcement. Until he returns, there's not much
that we can do.
Oliver
---------------------
From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: Mmmm. . . lovely grubs!
Message-ID:
Date: 30 Mar 94 08:41:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3452
Greg Fried here.
Happy happy happy! Joy joy joy! The dissertation is nearly done, and maybe I
can get my RQ campaign jump started again. Finding a JOB is another
matter...
Andre from Brasil asks for information on heroquesting. Andre, issue No. 7
of Tales of the Reaching Moon was a "HeroQuest Special". Sorry I don't have
the email address for Tales handy, but you probably should find a way to get
hold of that issue. Hey, maybe you could be their Latin America distributor
;-)
MOB:
I'm just curious -- is the Stigummay drug perchance inspired by the
Down-Under delicacy of of Wichety (sp?) grubs? A good friend of mine, who is
a little mad, spent several moths a few years back waltzing his matilda
around the outback. This friend was was already mimicking the Praxian
diet (though he would not say so) by developing what he calls
his 'Paleolithic Diet' -- which means that as far as possible, he
endeavors to maintain a diet similar to the probable diet of
paleolithic peoples: fruits, (wild) grains, nuts, range meat when
possible (low fat meat otherwise), roots and tubers,
no milk, no processed anything -- you get the idea. He thinks it's
healthy. It may be.
One particular item in this diet which he discovered down under was
the Wichety grub -- a white grub about 3-4 inches long with massive
black mandibles. He says the aborigines eat them with relish, and in
any case, he said he did -- either raw, or cooked in hot ashes.
Apparently, you have to bite the head first if you eat them live,
'cause the mandibles are powerful....
Sounds like good Praxian fare to me!
Hey, maybe you should march that little Roman legion you organized
over to the Board of Education and crucify the shmucks who wanted to
wack your school.
GF out.
---------------------
From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com
Subject: Re: NOT Another Addictive Drug?
Message-ID: <_30-Mar-94_11:58:22_+1_.*.Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.Xerox.com>
Date: 30 Mar 94 10:58:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3453
Martin,
Form the perspective of my Glorantha players there is only one
known addictive drug, Sallow Root, I had no knowledge of Hazia
when I designed the Root for use in my own campaign.
Let me also inform you that I am an Englishman so please do not
assume I am part of some jingoist American Just Say No culture
which you might understandably find objectionable.
The Root is being used as a weapon just like the in Opium Wars that
you cite but rather than outlawing the drug, as you assumed, my
Arkarti culture has instead sent a small force to stem the flow.
There are no drug laws in the Arkati Empire. I present abolutely no
arguments to support drug laws in Gloratha.
The players are each bound by a Oath of which one part is that they
will not partake of Sallow Root but then the Empire has invested into
their caravan a lot of resources both magical and material. This
is by no means common practise in the Akarti Empire.
When I started my campaign I wove stories of Glorantha establishing
the differences between Gloranth and Earth, describing the effects
of Sallow Root in neutral terms and using the desperation of the
Arkati Empire for their motivation. They have a secret task to
undertake and they must achieve it through the guise of being a
caravan seeking to establish trade routes.
Let me remind you that I am only a play-tester of Glorantha and
I am not suggesting that my suggestions are included in your
game. Instead I am sharing my ideas to invite feedback.
Can you summarise Hazia for me?
Regards
-- Guy Robinson --
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Goat broos
Message-ID:
Date: 30 Mar 94 11:25:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3454
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 3448
> >Vadrus/Ragnaglar Goats (guess based on the standard broo
> > appearance)
> The likely explanation for why most broos are goat-like has to do with how
> domestic animals are treated, and how far they tend to be from settlements.
> If the goats tend to stray up in the hills, they're more susceptible to
> broos than cattle.
In this thread of thought I'd expect most broos to be begat on sheep - they
don't run away, can be herded together and offer little resistance.
Of course, if some of the "mother" animal's spirit goes over to broos,
these sheep broos would form the lowest echelons of broo society.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de