From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 07 Apr 1994, part 2
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From: raphael@research.canon.oz.au (Andrew Raphael)
Subject: Re: Glorantha Goes to the Movies
Message-ID: <199404070242.AA25344@mama.research.canon.oz.au>
Date: 7 Apr 94 22:42:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3537
MOB writes:
>Mad Prax - Beyond Sun Dome
The Cradles That Ate Pavis
Picnic At Pairing Stone
Bonfire Of The Vadeli
One Flew Over The Condors Nest
The Last Argrath Hero
Single White Fronelan
The Battle Of Brithos
Dances With Wolfhead
Well, MOB liked them. :-)
--
Andrew Raphael
"She's probably not what she seems, though she tries"
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Games again, Invisible deities, and Yelmalian tactics
Message-ID:
Date: 7 Apr 94 07:05:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3538
Harald Smith in X-RQ-ID: 3517
> Re: Sandy's comments about my sports/games points
> My point was not that you would not have sports/games in a
> village (and I quite agree with you that several villages getting
> together would naturally have some sort of contests together),
> but that in your average village of say 60 folk there typically
> would not be enough children of particular ages to play sports
> requiring large numbers on each side. In said average village,
> you might have 1/5 of the population under 10 (12 total) and
> another 1/5 between 10 and 20 (another 12). For small children's
> games then you might have 6-8 available. For rougher games, I
> picture some segregation of boys and girls aged 10 and up which
> leaves you with about 6 boys for your game of soccer or whatever.
> Yes, you can play soccer with 3 on a side, but I think the
> villagers would develop something more in tune with available
> village materials and traditions.
I remember playing soccer in schoolbreaks with 4 of my friends, regularly,
using any object durable and soft enough to be kicked around. No girls
involved. There were other games for both sexes, like two teams trying
to hit members of the opponent team with a ball. If an opponent was hit
but the ball caught, throwing right changed to that team, else the
person hit left the team. If you want, a simple version of baseball,
no running or clubbing involved.
> And that's the other part of my point--since towns develop from
> villages and not the other way around, games and sports in an
> area should reflect the nature of the village life and be
> developed from that. Personally, I would prefer to see people
> come up with interesting and unique Gloranthan games than
> transposing earth games to it, though obviously some games or
> types of games have a certain universality whether you're dealing
> with Glorantha or earth.
That's why I started this thread with ball games - human ingenuity
has put a lot of effort to develop things to do with an approximately
spherical object (like a trollkin) and a few players, so I assumed
that with a few small alterations existing ball games would translate
into Glorantha well. E.g. warping a few rules, so that current
practitioners would be hard put to play the games.
I liked the "full contact golf" description. This game is worthy of
Orlanthi teams.
Guy Robinson in X-RQ-ID: 3518 supporting the Invisible God = scam view
> Although I can by no means claim to be originator of this angle I did
> suggest it independently to the playtest list a while back.
> All the Invisible Gods offers is a social order where the general
> populace is placed under the rule of Sorcerer-Priests. Very
> sinister indeed ...
Exchange "Invisible God" for "Red Goddess" or "Dragon Emperor", and
read the sentence again.
And: In ancient western (Brithini) society, the ruler caste was _not_
the wizard caste; the wizards and the warriors were the arms of the
rulers, the farmer caste was their body.
I don't see why a society with wizards as clerics would be more sinister
than one with demon- or dragon-wielding priests. And human sacrifice is
(except for the Tap spell) a province of the theistic cultures, escpecially
the fertility cults, but also in e.g. Solar coronation rites.
To quote Terry Pratchett: "Dissecting people when they were still alive
tended to be a priestly occupation; they thought mankind _had_ been
created by some sort of divine being and wanted to have a closer look
at His handiwork."
> The Gods which are attended to by cults at least have a voice and
> an inter-related culture in common with most of Glorantha. Although
> this could have been woven together by HeroQuesting it still gets
> my vote as being more authentic.
The cult of the Invisible God is the largest to be found on Glorantha,
divided into a countable number of subcults or sects like Stygian
variations or society-based distinctions (Hrestoli-Rokari).
> Although the Cults do seem to rake in quite a significant spiritual
> profit for their associated Dieties at least the members of the cult
> do benefit from their involvement. On the other hand this could
> merely be an attempt to use the cult members as a system for the
> reproduction of magical resources for the Diety.
For the average farmer, it makes no great difference whether a wizard
or a priest casts the fertility spells, what is important is that
these work. Bless Crops is the most frequently cast spell in theistic
Glorantha, but this is mostly done by professionals, because ceremony
is involved.
> At least corruption of the Cult hierarchies is more difficult as a
> routine Divination can reveal the Dieties displeasure. Although
> the issue of whether Dieties actually think in any kind of way
> that can be described as mortal is a mute point at least they have
> a voice and can use this to subdue or overthrow those that seek to
> abuse power in their names.
A deity's displeasure is mostly expressed through its priesthood. They
are the ones with reusable Divinations, and they send out the minor
ailments like Orlanth's Impests (the most colourful cult spirits I've
met so far). What use is Divination is control instrument over the clerus
if the clerus gets to formulate the request? They are also the ones to
teach Divination, and they aren't likely to find troublemakers "worthy"
before their deity.
Don't get me wrong, I don't say that all theistic priests are bastards.
They could if they wanted, though, and the only way to bypass them would
be an individual Heroquest, like Harmast Barefoot's quest against
Lokamayadon's preachings for Nysalor. Malkioni can contact their Saints
without clerical involvement...
> But prehaps if you maintain a steady flow of worship MPs and
> sacrificial POW they simply do not care what you do ...
This is probably quite right.
Josh Wright in X-RQ-ID: 3519
> Joerg wrote on Elmal patrols and field tactics;
> Yelmalians field two of the most powerful forces on the ancient
> battle field, organized pikes and horse archers, even with the addition
> of Gloranthan factors (Magic,Elementals, Trolls etc...) they are still
> powerful.
I don't see Sartarite Hill barbarians as organized pike formations, else
the Sun Dome Templars wouldn't be special units in Dragon Pass. In fighting
style the Hill barbarians resemble the (Continental) Celts or the
Homeric Greeks most closely - disarrayed lines of spirited brutes
relying on the first onslaught to break a formation. They have a code
of honour which goes for personal combat, although preliminary
exchange of missiles is considered honourable.
> I figure that Yelmalians would be divided into two groups, those who
> are rich or lucky enough to be cavalry (preferable archers, but also
> mounted spears) and the average hopolite style templar. There may be
> some crossover, but the simple hassel of studying both sets of weapons
> and carrying all of them (especially well trying to ride) creates
> specialization. The peltasts might be those to weak, poor or crazy to
> fit into one of the other groups.
The civilized ones, like the Sun Dome Templars. I addressed the barbarians...
> Horse Archers, on an open battlefield there is no need for a horse
> archer to get down, they can just ride around at a good range and pour
> arrows onto their foes. A powerful, and unfair, tactic, an archer can
> stay out of range of all missiles and spells, except bows,runemagic and
> sorcery and still attack perfectly well. They are mounted, fast enough
> to get away from anyone who rushes them and to pursue fleeing foes. A
> horse archer might carry a shortsword or shortspear if they must come
> into close combat.
The Danubian mix of Celts and Scyths used horses and chariots to ride
into combat, but for the actual fighting dismounted. Maybe this is caught
in the Yelmalian geas "Never let a horse suffer needlessly"?
> In hill country these tactics suffer, the rider must be cunning to
> keep their advantages. Moving quickly from hill crest to hill crest
> and staying uphill of thier targets. The best way is to let the peltasts
> and the infantry cripple them then ride in and finish them off or pursue
> a routed foe.
Or the Yelmalians could be likely candidates for a Gloranthan Agincourt?
> Light Sons and Sun Lords are encouraged to learn horse archery skills
> because they are the flagship forces of a Solar field army.
Again: What about the barbarian Yemalians?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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