Bell Digest v940408p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 08 Apr 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Initiation and Games
Message-ID: 
Date: 8 Apr 94 06:04:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3550


Alex "Sometimes Mails Twice" Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3526 and 3527 

[Initiation]
> I note that the annotations to Argrath's Saga say there are "several
> initiations to qualify as adults" (annot. 10).  This leaves open the
> question of whether cult initiation is one of these steps, and if so,
> whether it precedes or succeeds the tribal/clan initiation.

The following is focussed on the Orlanthi only.

I'd interpret this so that at reaching various age groups, the boys 
(and girls) undergo rites of passage, e.g. about the age of nine they 
may become initiated into the cults of Voriof or Voria and get assigned 
certain tasks for the family. Some kind of birth initiation aka naming 
ceremony would be the first of many steps, if you don't count conception 
and birth as well. About the age of twelve to fifteen, more and more 
adulthood responsibilities and freedoms become available.

I'd expect one aspect of the adulthood initiation to be the oath of 
allegiance to one's clan chieftain, tribal king etc. These are combined 
with holy days, because that is the time when also the people from 
isolated steads flock together.

> Certainly, however, it seems clear being an Adult Non-Initiate would
> not be a common, and much less an approved of, state, even if it is
> possible.

People stressing the (IMHO tenuous) landbound Viking parallel for the 
Orlanthi might use the "Men without Gods" section from RQ Vikings for 
non-initiates, but I have difficulties to imagine atheist hill 
barbarians without extended contact to conflicting doctrines, like 
the Vikings faced with Christianity vs. Aesir worship. But the Vikings 
were more pragmatic than even the God Learners or illuminates in religious 
matters. Think of Icelands acceptance of Christianity under Olaf 
Tryggvason, or look at the religious affiliations of Bengtson's Red Orm.

> But note that if you're a 15 year old, trying to join a religion
> other than that of your parents', your chances aren't great.  A back-of-an-
> envelope calculation for a boringly-average Sartarite of this age trying
> to pass the Orlanth skill test, one of the easier due to high(ish) skill
> bases, suggests he has about a 10% of success. 

In a pure farmers community (i.e. 60% of the populace) the chances to do 
something else than farming, herding or hunting are slim. Things are 
different for warriors serving in foreign lands, e.g. with the tribal king, 
or people living along trade routes. (Sartar is different because of its 
Western-influenced, extremely modern system of roads and cities. King 
Sartar came from a land dominated by Western doctrine...)

In a city, or along a trade route, there are a lot more things to do than 
just primary production. While agriculture remains one of the economical 
legs to stand on, some specialisation in ones livelyhood is possible. 
By joining a craft, one is initiated into another society as well, so 
the young candidate gets two ways to go. In occupied Sartar secret 
societies like the Cold Wind Movement recruit among the boys as well, so 
the youngsters get yet another perspective, and in heavily Lunar influenced 
places the Lunar way could attract less rabid Orlanthi. Especially 
hostages...

> What happens if he fails?
> Does he get bounced out of the clan, have to wait until the next lot of
> clan initiations, and try the whole thing again, or simply wait a year,
> and retry joining the cult (or even try joining another in the meantime)?

Were it Prax, the denied candidate would have to join either the Pol Joni 
or the Gagarthi. In Sartar, she could always stick to one of the minor 
cults, like Geo.

> (Presumably initiation into Voria or Voriof `doesn't count', at least.)

That is what the "pantheon initiation" faction means by low initiate state.

> One thought that occurs is that particular bloodlines might have this
> requirement, for their particular `family' god.  This would make some
> sense if initiation were into one's own bloodline primarily, and only
> secondarily into clan or tribe.

This is the Ancestor Worship most, if not all, theistic cultures include 
into their theistic worship.

> On the subject of bloodlines: someone stated that tribal kings had to belong
> to particular royal bloodlines; anyone have a reference to this in published
> material?  (I found one declaring this to be the case at the Kingdom level,
> but not that I could see otherwise.)

I haven't seen this explicitly stated, but given the Colymar Tribe as 
example, the Karandoli kings are unlikely to be descendants of Colymar, 
although they may have been adopted into the clan when the Colymar decided 
that Colymar did not come from Esrolia (as he did, according to CHDP), but 
from the Orshanti Clan (which happened to spawn a certain wizard hero by 
name of Sartar, and lived next to the original Karandoli home in 
Hendrikiland).


Alex again in X-RQ-ID: 3529

> Martin:
>>As for Urox, I believe his emergence as a separate cult is a second  
>> or third age development.

> This is sustainable (perhaps) in Orlanthi lands, but not, one has to
> presume, in Prax and the Wastes.

I might agree with Martin in the sense of an independent clerical 
hierarchy (however (c)rude in this case) from one of the bulk of 
associate deities cared for by the Orlanth priesthood. (Another reason 
for pantheon initiation - or are there more than maybe five rune levels 
of Heler in Sartar?)


Lewis Jardine in X-RQ-ID: 3530

> 	The great broo debate.  
> 	I believe that ALL broo are born male.

I don't recall the source, but I remember that Thed does not want 
the worship of female broos, so they are traditionally Maliants. This 
might bolster Lewis' theory.

> 	However (as always) there are a very few female broo.  
> 	They are NOT BORN as female broo.  
> 	I can think of two ways in which they are created.  

> 	1) A female human (or other) becomes a broo due to taking too many 
> 	chaotic features, or Thanatar heads etc.  

Does aquiring Thanatar heads make you a broo?

How frequently will any member of another race (female or male) be
transformed into a broo by accepting one too many chaotic feature? 
Which chaotic entities spread chaos to unwilling recipients, except 
one denizen of Snake Pipe Hollow, and the dreadful Curse of Thed spell?

James Polk in X-RQ-ID: 3532

> Can others on the RQ Daily scene provide more examples of village (group)
> versus village games? If not, then I suggest that two examples are 
> insufficient evidence on which to refute Harald Smith's contention.  

I read about another american tribe playing a running match or something 
similar in "The Aztec", and I think Marco Polo described similar village 
to village or tribe to tribe contests. In (Basquic?) Spain (or South 
America?) there are villages which meet annually with staff slings 
and fire at each other. Even Wulfstan's report on Baltic burial rites 
included a riding contest with participants of many villages. At fairs 
(one per year at least in medieval times) all kinds of games were played. 
Viking horse fighting was a travellers' game as well.


> In reply to Eric Robert Jablow:

> Even if chess exists in Glorantha - and I contend it does not (see my next
> message on games) - how would Gloranthans possibly know about "Ruy Lopez" or
> "Scicilian Defense", since neither the player nor the place exist in
> Glorantha?

Some "shah" like game will have evolved in Glorantha, I am sure, and maybe 
some go-like game as well. Most promising candidates seem to be Dara Happa 
for chessish games and Vormain for goish games.

Standard openings would be called after Gloranthan cities and countries, 
of course.

> Tug-o-war in a village seems reasonable, but tug-o-war is rather different
> than games such as baseball.  Also, how about a Gloranthan name for 
> tug-o-war?

Different from place to place. The German game name translates as 
rope-pulling.

This is another qualm I have with naming Gloranthan games - all the names 
turn out to be English. Give them stylish Gloranthan language names, for 
Tradetalk's sake!

Yet James Polk in X-RQ-ID: 3533

> Gloranthan Games For People who Insist that Human Blood Doesn't Contain
> Iron and then Talk About Gloranthan Baseball:   :-) 

I guess that's me? 

> There are a number of games which use balls, but they can be quite different
> from each other. Basketball, soccer (football), kickball, tennis, and 
> dodgeball all use a spherical object.  But their differences show me that
> one can start with a common object and end up with vastly different games. 
> So why should Gloranthan games be just like (or incredibly similar to) 
> Earth games?  Why not "discover" (create) new ones?  They can certainly
> share a number of attributes without being the same game.

Seems I have anticipated this question. See Thursday's daily part 2.

> As an example, I present to you the game of Empire.  This game, popular 
> in the Lunar Empire, uses a board divided into 49 squares which
> are coloured Red, White and Yellow (see the diagram below).  The pieces
> used are the Goddess, the Emperor, the Magician, the Priest, the General,
> and two Soldiers. It is a two-player game, and each player begins with a
> full set of pieces.  The object of the game is to capture any six of the
> nine Imperial (red) squares.

> Board Layout:

> R - W - Y - R - Y - W - R
> W - Y - W - Y - W - Y - W
> Y - W - Y - W - Y - W - Y
> R - Y - W - R - W - Y - R
> Y - W - Y - W - Y - W - Y
> W - Y - W - Y - W - Y - W
> R - W - Y - R - Y - W - R

Nice piece of imagination. As a dedicated, although only mediocre player 
of boardgames like chess and go some questions:

How do the pieces move? How does one capture/move away enemy pieces? 
(With only seven pieces per side, I imagine you only move away enemy 
pieces. How?) When is a red field considered captured? Dragon Pass city 
rules?

And I'd have expected seven individual pieces: Goddess plus six Mothers.

> This game is related to a Dara Happan game (of the same name), which 
> uses a circular board, divided into five rings of twenty yellow and 
> white "squares", etc.

Which are the places to be taken? Etc.

> My point it that I think we do ourselves a disservice if we say Empire 
> is merely a variant of an Earth game.  Gloranthans will never have heard of 
> our strategy game,
> [...]  So, if you like using Gloranthan 
> slang, Gloranthan dieties, Gloranthan geography, etc, then use Gloranthan
> games and Gloranthan game names.  Don't talk about soccer, hockey, caber
> tossing, lacrosse, jacks, or checkers. Create (and then talk about) Shield
> Push, Empire, Troll Ball, and Barrel Hop (whatever that is), etc.  

Sorry, but as much as I like colourful names, If I tell may layers that 
they are to win three out of five matches of Shatra or die, then they'll 
ask me what Shatra is. My answer (based on a German fantasy novel):

"A game like chess, but played on a 12 times 12 squares field. Apart from 
king, marshal (the queen of chess), high priest (bishop), knight, tower
and pawn there are two more medium pieces: the lancer (can jump to any 
square of its own colour within two squares) and the guardian (moves like 
the queen, but to a maximum of three squares). Pawns can move two fields 
forward as long as they are in their original half of the board. The 
12 pawns are placed in the second line of squares, the other pieces in 
the first line: guardian, knight, tower, lancer, bishop, king, marshal, 
etc. Else chess rules apply."

I've actually played this game with a few friends, and found it as 
interesting as chess. Still, while we all call it shatra, it is 
essentially a chess variant, and with the non-boardgamers it rests as 
just that - chess.


Paul Anderson in  X-RQ-ID: 3535

> On Chess:

>     IMHO human cultures should differ more than playing different openings in 
> the same game; their forms of chess should differ as much among themselves as 
> Indian from Persian from Chinese from Modern.  If this be granted, where did 
> Modern chess, with its characteristic pieces, arise?

I think in the crusades, but I cannot say for sure.

>     In chess as we know it, a king is an indispensible token of the army, and 
> he is defended by a female Hero, mobile fortifications, cavalry, and organized 
> priests. He also has a numerous but weak infantry.  This sounds more like the 
> Lunar armies than any other. [...] Trolls are perhaps the second most likely 
> culture; they are female-dominated, and have riding specialists.  It this is 
> true, chess would have had to be invented and spread to Orlanthi long ago for 
> Sartarites to now find it acceptable.  

The Queen is called something like vezire by Persians (who named the game, 
if not invented it), and is _not_ a female character. Thus, Orlanthi, 
Dara Happans and Westerners would have male roles assigned to the Queen's 
name (like marshal, in my shatra example).

But I totally approve of your Gloranthan variants.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: f6ri@midway.uchicago.edu (charles gregory fried)
Subject: interesting headz
Message-ID: 
Date: 7 Apr 94 07:37:21 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3539

Newton,

I noticed that head, but I thought it was a depiction of the Lhankor Mhy
(oops did I spell that right) scholar whom the Thanatar priest in the
scenario has hanging from his belt.  Whether a RW model was used, I know
not....


-- Greg Fried

---------------------

From: johnston@heart.enet.dec.com (Groove Requiem..)
Subject: Gold Wheel Dancers, Kresh
Message-ID: <9404071239.AA15429@vbormc.vbo.dec.com>
Date: 7 Apr 94 12:48:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3540

ANDERSJC@howdy.Princeton.EDU (Paul Anderson) says

>    The point on "the human species" is well taken, but I don't think Glorantha
>has Linnaean species at all. Another hybrid is Gwalynkus the Good, who reigned 
>in Dorastor c. 150. (D p.6) He is mostly descended from Theyalan humans, but 
>his mother's father is a dwarf, and his father was descended in the female line
>from a dryad.

I remember finding this a bit strange. Dwarfs are basically edible stone 
arent they ? Flintnail bothered me for the same reason.

Also Gwalynkus is also supposed to have married one of the last of the gold
wheel dancers. Pinniching (from the cradle scenario) is supposed to be a Gold
wheel dancer too, yet he (she? it?) is a spinning hoop. You would have to be 
pretty wierd to marry a spinning hoop I think.

So either Gwalynkus was deranged, or GW Dancers had more than one form, or the 
author of the history had a fetish for strange unions...

Does anyone have anymore info on the Gold Wheel Dancers ?


>John Hughes talked about the kresh a day or two ago.

When I first read about the Kresh I assumed it must be dinosaurs pulling the
wagons. I agree that humans pulling them is a bit harder to cope with. 
I decided in the end that the Wagon Master must also be a Kresh priest of some
sort, able to cast spells to aid the wagons movement. Spell names such as 
Slither, Slide or Lighten Wagon come to mind.

Hows about something like:
	Lighten Wagon	1 pt Divine ritual, reusable. Duration 1 day.
This spell may only be cast upon a Kresh Wagon. Each magic point sacrificed 
by the Priests congregation lightens the weight of the wagon by 100 KG.
 
nigel johnston

---------------------

From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com
Subject: Divine Tyrants and Bastard Priests
Message-ID: <__7-Apr-94_15:13:17_+1_.*.Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.Xerox.com>
Date: 7 Apr 94 14:13:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3541


As I read the daily from one source but post electronic mail largely
from another I can not quote from Joerg's reasoned response.

Whether the tyrant is the Invisible God, the Red Goddess or the
Dragon Emperor it makes no odds to me.  It is still a scam if
the population is subdued to allow the rulers to profit from
the tranquility and the worship of the populace.

With the Wizard caste possessing the magical power within a
sorcerous society then in a society that is not too deeply
entrenched in its ways I believe that they would tend to rise 
to the top.

I am a bit suspectfull of the non-sorcerous cultures being
labeled as theistic.  This akin to to acclaiming sorcerers
as glorious scientists and cults as terrible pagans.  While
the sorcerers themselves might seek to claim this I do not
think is a suitable description.

My complaints about the sorcerer-priests is that they do not
appear to be offering the people they officiate over a far
crack of the whip.  At least the Rune Cults do offer magic
to the common man at a reasonable cost.

The average farmer for example might be able to purchase
a Battle Magic spell which is actually applicable to his
daily life in a flexible manner.  Prehaps a reason for
the Sorcerer-Priests is partially to stop the spread of
cheap Battle Magic which devalues sorcerous training.

In fact I feel the cost is too reasonable.  There has to be
a catch, a hidden rake-back that people do not talk about
in public.  This why I have no objections to accepting a
darker side to the Rune Cults.

Joerg mentions the size of the Invisible God's cult but 
this does not guarantee that this cult is authentic.  The
history of Glorantha is full of cyclic expansion and 
contractions.

Prehaps the salvation of the Orlanthi will be the 
mobilization of the lands of the Invisible God once the
insubstanciality and as well as the invisibility of
the Invisible God is exposed.  Where better to recuit
help from against the might of the Lunar Empire?

Good point about people caring about the effect rather 
than the source of magic.  Good point about how bastard
priests could run a racket to contain any relevations
that might occur from a Divination.

I think Glorantha has a sour under-belly which, prehaps
unwittingly in some cases, has a human face applied
to it.  It's enough for a human to consider seeing if
the Mostali need any help with the World Machine ... :-)

Regards

	-- Guy Robinson -- 

---------------------

From: kenrolston@aol.com
Subject: Rune Czar becomes Nomad Interactive Shaman
Message-ID: <9404071101.tn509508@aol.com>
Date: 7 Apr 94 15:01:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3542

Ken Rolston, Rune Czar, has accepted a position as Game Designer for Magnet
Interactive Studios in Washington DC, and is in the process of relocating
there suddenly. My agreement with Magnet permits me to continue as freelance
editor and developer for RQ Gloranthan materials with AH.

In case you are wondering, Lords of Terror (a revision and expansion of Cults
of Terror including illustrating NPCs and scenario hooks) is currently under
development, and a proposal for Soldiers of the Red Moon (Lunar soldiers in
occupied Sartar) is, even as we speak, in negotiations with AH & Mike
O'Brien. Schedules are in complete disorder, for various reasons, including
my desperately sudden relocation. As you know, the current draft of
RuneQuest: Adventures in Glorantha, previously scheduled for summer 1994, has
not been approved by Greg. I am not personally involved in editing or
development of that project, and I don't have anything official or
informative to say about it at the moment.

I am going to be terribly busy in the immediate future, and beg forgiveness
in advance for being slow to answer -- even read -- correspondence. I'm happy
as a clam about my new job, but coping with current business and social
obligations while relocating and getting up to speed in trendy multimedia is
going to give me some choice embolisms. Thanks for your patience.

Ken

---------------------

From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Gloranthan Flora
Message-ID: <9404071701.AA00683@Sun.COM>
Date: 7 Apr 94 15:42:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3543


Hi All 
	Here is a little idea I had for a Gloranthan plant to add colour.  

Broo Grass (aka Ratslaff's Curse, Disorder Daisy and Bitter-Pretty)

	A weed which produces small, brightly coloured flowers in spring.  
	The colour of the flowers varies from plant to plant, but is 
	almost always constant on a given specimen.  While attractive 
	Broo Grass is not liked by herders and parents alike as it is 
	mildly poisonous during most of the year, but very unpleasant 
	during Sea Season when the flowers are out.  When flowering the 
	leaves also produces a sticky substance which will irritate 
	sensitive skin (like that of children).  

	Broo Grass thrives in most soils and under most climatic conditions.
	It does this because it is able to hybridize with virtually all 
	other plants, thus when hybridized with the local plants it can 
	survive the local conditions.  

	Broo Grass wilts somewhat in Dark Season and dies off completely 
	during Storm Season.  Green shoots typical burst from the ground 
	during sacred time.  The flowers are vulnerable to a heavy frost 
	or rain which is one of the few reasons which has stopped this 
	ubiquitous plant from spreading everywhere.  

	Naturally aldryami are VERY hostile towards this plant (although 
	it is not poisonous to them).  Typically aldryami rip up Broo Grass 
	on sight and immediately eat it.  Some aldryami do not even use 
	Food Song when killing the plant as they regard it as a chaos 
	perversion of plant life.  In fact there is plenty of evidence 
	that Broo Grass is linked to Disorder rather than Chaos.

	The Myths state that Ratslaff was challenged by Yelm to find a more 
	beautiful plant that the perfectly formed, pure white, rose.  He 
	went away and wooed Aldrya who would have nothing to do with this 
	consumate liar, cheat and troublemaker.  He then went to Ernalda 
	who had Elmal box his ears and kick him into the dung heap.  
	Finally, he snuck up on Voria who was singing to the birds with 
	flowers in her hair.  He was about to grab her, but she was warned 
	by the smell of the dung and the birds twittering so she jumped up 
	and ran away, leaving Ratslaff with just a handful of flowers from 
	her hair.  

	Ratslaff, grinned (with lots of sharp teeth) and took the flowers 
	back to his castle filled with Boggles and other wierd creatures.
	There, he taught the flowers how to combine with other plants in 
	order to cheat nature so that they could grow anywhere.  He taught 
	them to produce brightly coloured flowers to make themselves 
	attractive, but made their juices poisonous to create a lie.  

	He took his flowers to Yelm who said they were a cheap, gaudy, 
	shower without true artistic merit.  Ratslaff felt angry so he 
	sent his flowers out into the world to cause trouble by mixing 
	with other species and causing animals and children to have 
	sore stomachs and skin.  Death had not yet been discovered, 
	otherwise he would have probably made his plants leathal.  
	Still he used some of the tricks he had learned when making 
	his flowers when he fathered the race of Broos, that it one 
	of the reasons why we call it Broo Grass.  

	-----
	Lewis
	-----