From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 14 Apr 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org (Sandy Petersen) Subject: various Message-ID: <9404131758.AA02727@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 13 Apr 94 04:43:23 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3626 I said: > Vithela is where the spirits wait. When the Emperor Passes > On, the spirits go to the next stage of existence. This place is > unattainable and unvisitable by normal Gloranthan abilities, > including Heroquesting. Perhaps it is Solace in Glory? Joerg B. replies: >You write that Vithela is unattainable and unvisitable. What hapens >if a ship is approaching the place where Vithela is supposed to be? >Another effect like the Syndics' Ban, or Brithos disappearance? No no, Joerg, you misunderstood my previous statement. VITHELA is not unattainable. The NEXT STAGE OF EXISTENCE is unattainable. To clarify: if the Kralori are right, when one dies, his spirit goes to Vithela. Then, many years later, when the Emperor dies, both the Emperor, and the spirits in Vithela pack their bags and travel on to the Next Stage, whatever that is. I'm sure that next stage has a name to the Kralori, but it might be too sacred to pronounce. It's perfectly possible to approach Vithela, and even land on the shores. However, no one does it, because "no one" who does so ever leaves again. I'm sure there's heroes, etc. who are able to depart. The East Islanders say that the reason no one ever leaves Vithela once they go there is because it is so utterly pleasant that you can't stand to leave. So why don't they all sail there at once? Two reasons: Reason Numba One: fear. What if the going belief is wrong? Are you sure enough about the afterlife to go to Vithela? Reason Numba Two: It is widely known that you can only ever go to Vithela once. Even the heroes who go there and return can't go back again (maybe a superhero or god could, tho). Some priests say that if you go to Vithela when you're still alive, then when you die (still living in Vithela, supposedly), you've got to go somewhere else, and don't get to be in Vithela anymore. Heaven only knows where that somewhere else is, but it might be somewhere terrible, like the dreadful under-earth Earth Heaven, or Yelm's ever-wandering entourage that goes to Hell EVERY NIGHT! Or Orlanth's sordid never-ending orgy and feast. Better to wait for Vithela. Speaking about Cult exclusivity: >[protestants] _are_ exclusive even against similar faiths, like >Jehova's witnesses, certain other sects wearing the label christian, >and generally avoid contact with the other major christian faiths, >Roman Catholics or Orthodox. Yes, but to carry the parallel further than is accurate for Glorantha, think of "Protestantism" as "Theyalan", think of the Jehova's Witnesses as fringe sects like Eurmal or Molanni. Then think of the Catholics as Lunars or other non-Theyalans. Alex Ferguson says, in reference to the cult network of Pamaltela: >This doesn't sound different from say, Yelm or Orlanth. Do other >cults tend to have associates that their Genertelan analogues >wouldn't? It's more like the Eiritha cult network which is only available at the Paps -- all sorts of little bitty "associates" or subcults who have no real worshipers (except as Horned God worship) but provide magic to the various important cults. >Cronisper has always sounded Dayzatarish to me. Did the God >Learners make this correspondance? The Six Legged Empire found a parallel between Cronisper and Dayzatar (and Ty Kora Tek, and Drospoly), but he is not a Dayzatar-equivalent. For one thing, he is not a solar cult, which would have mattered a lot to the God Learners. Why is Duala = Voria, you ask? Because the God Learners made the correspondence. >Perhaps [Babeester Gor/Hondori Mal] isn't female-only in Pamaltela. Perhaps so. But I bet male worshipers have to become Contraries or something else dreadful. >I don't think Mastakos is `obscure', he just happens to be a de >facto Orlanth subcult. Point taken. Still, Jmijie is more-worshiped than Mastakos. Not only is Jmijie an associate of the King of the Gods (like Mastakos), but he also has his own strong and healthy cult (unlike Mastakos). This assumes, of course, that Jmijie isn't just Mastakos in disguise, a plausible tenet. >How close is [Noruma] to Horned Man? The Doraddi know all about the Horned Man. The Horned Man creates shamans. Noruma trains and teaches them. He has spells and skills useful to shamans and other magic-type people. The Doraddi consider Noruma and the Horned Man to be entirely different entities. Horned Man is more important cosmically, but Noruma is often of immediate value. Paul Reilly sez: >I hate to take issue with Sandy, but: Have you checked out a prison >lately? I have friends in prison, and intra-group rape DOES seem to >be a way to express dominance among human males I have had friends in prison myself, and I disagree with this statement. I think that rape among humans expresses hostility, not dominance. Among animals that perform dominance "rape" (at least mounting), the animals are able to maintain a friendly relationship with one another. The lower-ranked animal sometimes even invites the superior to mount, to demonstrate friendliness and subservience. This is NOT the case among humans. Sandy said: >Most faiths on Earth proclaim similar acts as "good", from Muslim to >Judaism Paul retorts: >Like when Yahweh orders the Jews to kill all the Canaanites in a >town, sparing neither the women and children nor the domestic >animals? >Or when the Moslems exploded across the world, killing any (apart, >theoretically, from Peoples of the Book) who would not convert? Let's not start a pro/anti-religion thread in the Daily, huh? In any case, your examples are pitifully bad. When's the last time the Jews killed all the population of a town? And though lots of guys were killed by the Moslems, they did not kill everyone who failed to convert, though non-Moslems had to pay extra taxes. The same Yahweh ordered "Thou Shalt Not Kill", with absolutely no weasel words restricting such murder to within the group. The Koran has similar rulings, as do other groups. In both cases, the orders to "kill all of 'em" came direct from God. Obviously you've got to do what God orders you to do, on Earth or in Glorantha. Pointing out lapses and horrors in various religions does not remove the fact that everyone who believes in the Bible believes that murder, theft, adultery, lying, and cheating are Wrong. Nobody rational who believes in it, whether or not they approve of the hard-to-explain-away Canaanite massacre, thinks this gives them carte blanche to wipe out cities full of unbelievers. Similar arguments can be made for other religions. I consider this thread closed unless you can find me an example of a large-scale religion that thinks it's good to rob and kill on an everyday basis, w/o special permission from God. >Sorry to disagree with Sandy on a couple of points, makes me suspect >I'm doing something wrong Darn right. Get with the program here. ;) Pam Carlson sensibly comments: >It strikes me that people mainly fear sorcerers because they >represent frightening power with no discernable alliegence or >control. I think this is very true, especially for theists. Also let's consider that the average sorcerers found living near theists are the rejects and outcasts of the Malkioni community. Wizards who are integrated into society aren't out in the hinterlands lurking in spooky Dark Towers. I suppose there are Wizards who ARE part of Malkioni society, but whose job is to subjugate or combat the theists. These guys are clearly no more acceptable than the guy in the spooky tower. In any case, the majority of sorcerers that would be met by a theist would be weirdos or hired thugs. Not a comforting crew. To continue along this line of reasoning, I do NOT think it applies to Lunar sorcerers, whom I believe are mostly Bad Guys (this despite the fact that I am, in general, a Lunar simp). First off, the basic culture of Peloria is a theistic one. Hence, someone who becomes a sorcerer and thus abandons his Solar roots is almost certainly doing so for selfish, power-gaining reasons, rather than to Serve The Invisible God, as among the Malkioni. Second, the exceptions to this, wizards from the sorcery-using culture of the Carmanians, are Bad Guys anyway, because the Carmanians in general are not very nice people. Third, Lunar sorcerers tend to be dabblers in Chaos. And yes, Examiner, I know it's possible to deal with Chaos safely if you're a Trained Professional. But even so, these sorcerers must go rotten with some frequency. The end result: the stereotypic Lunar sorcerer is a friendless, cold-blooded, sociopath using unnatural chaos powers. I suspect most Lunars dislike these guys, let alone Theyalans. I believe that Borists raise and breed chaotics for Tap fodder. Probably cooperate with them, too. --------------------- From: email@example.com Subject: Female Broos & Hyenas ? Message-ID: <9404130345.AA14529@itgmsm> Date: 13 Apr 94 03:42:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3627 I thought I'd add a final bit of obscure but perhaps crucial trivia to the female broo discussion. Perhaps female broos are like hyenas. Dominant female hyenas (they live in packs led by a matriarch) have elevated levels of male sex hormones, with peculiar results. The first is that their offspring, inheriting these high hormone levels, are extremely aggressive and will attempt to kill thier siblings within minutes of birth. The more pertinent factoid is that such female hyenas have huge clitorises that cannot be distinguished except at very close range from penises. I kid you not. Most people would think a hyena matriarch was male. A similar explanation may explain why people think there are no broo females. Jeff Johnson --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: games Message-ID: <01HB4XAKUG1YPZ80TN@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 13 Apr 94 13:02:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3628 Hello Everyone-- It's been a busy week out on the daily and I'm now half a week behind. Have to catch up this weekend. In the interim, since there have been a number of comments on games (and also feeling that I should offer up something after suggesting we build games from a Gloranthan base), I'm offering up the Imtherian game of Truetoss. Truetoss comes from the Southlands of Imther, an area heavily dominated by apple orchards (for those who like to picture areas based on earth equivalents, think of the rolling hills of Vermont or the hilly areas of western Wisconsin). The game originated with children trying to toss gathered apples into baskets from a distance. Truetoss is played with two teams of 2-5 players on each side (5 is preferred, though rare in the country except at festival time, as it produces 10 individuals participating--mythologically significant as much of the culture is solar-derived, though most children playing would not tell you that). Truetoss uses a hand-sized ball. The ball is stitched leather and filled with grass, leaves, or twine, often weighted with a small stone. It is not uncommon for the ball to break apart during play (or at least lose some of its stuffing). Note that feathers are not used as a rule as they are considered valuable by families. The ball is called the Orb (natural for a Yelmalian culture). Each player uses a one-handed forked stick called a Truthstick. It is basically Y-shaped (also appropriate for a Yelmalian culture) though the area between the Y is laced with gut string. Often the Truthstick is a crude branch, though some people spend time carving more effective sticks. The game is played upon any field that the contestants agree to. It might be bounded by four trees (or in the city of Hortugarth where they play in city alleys, it is bounded by the alley walls) or by field stones, etc. There are two ends and two sides. At the center of each end sits a tilted basket, called Home. The goal is to toss the Orb into the basket and have it stay there. This has led to the rise of the slang expression "Bringing the Orb Home"--equivalent to saying that someone made a good point (or scored a solid hit with their weapon, etc.). If someone tosses the Orb at the basket and it goes past the basket or bounces back out, the other team gains control of the Orb. A slang expression "Throwing the Orb Away/Afield" has come from this event--equivalent to saying that someone tossed away an advantage. One Kingstep (the Imtherian equivalent of a meter) to either side of the basket are two posts called Kingsposts. When one team has thrown the Orb away and the other brings it back in, it does so between the Kingsposts. The Orb is moved in one of two ways. It may be tossed by hand from one person to another. A person cannot move when the Orb is in their bare hand--they can only toss it. It may be tossed and caught in a Truthstick. Depending on the community, a person with the Orb in a Truthstick may either move 5 or 10 paces before they must toss the Orb or they may move constantly (though they may not come within a Kingstep of the basket). (This is reflective of the local beliefs in Yelmalio's flight from pursuit after the battles at the Hill of Gold--note that in my version of Imther, Yelmalio is not frozen atop the Hill of Gold, but flees eastward into the Imtherian hills to escape the dark and rally the local populace.) Players cannot touch each other though they may hit another person's Truthstick with their own to dislodge the Orb. Local communities may add on additional rules, but that is the core of the game. It derives from a common local event (apple picking), utilizes available resources (leather, some sort of soft filling for the ball, branches, and gut string), and aspects of the rules reflect childhood understanding of mythological events. Now how similar is this to earth games. Not knowing the rules of lacrosse, I realize there is similarity of equipment. There are certainly similarities with basketball or American football. And I suppose there are any number of other games it has similarities to. But it's an attempt to generate something from a Gloranthan base. --Harald Smith --------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Me and not-me Message-ID: <email@example.com> Date: 14 Apr 94 00:56:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3629 Joerg attributes comments about conversion to me. I don't recall who said them, but it weren't me. Nice try, pal--tried to pull one over on me, eh? Joerg also says, apropos Humakt in Prax: "...If the army stayed there, so would have the cult, ..." If a frog had wings... I dug out the reference I was thinking of, and find that it refers to the Pol Joni (although they are not named), not the Pure Horse People. Mea culpa. The reference is the Pavis Common Knowledge book, page 12, where it states "They carried battle magics, and their magicians worshiped Rune gods, unlike the shamans of Prax." This was in the 1420's. Of course, this is late Third Age, and the reference is copyright 1983, so make of it what you will. I prefer to believe that the nomad cults developed in complexity from shaman-based to mobile-temple-based during the Second and Third Age. >I don't see the Paps populace as the same nation as the Oasis people. >To me they always had been close relatives of the beast riders, especially >since the Waha Khans regularly marry Eiritha priestesses, both of the >own herd, and of the Paps. Am I mistaken? Well, heck, don't ask me, I'm not official. I see the Paps residents as descended from common ancestors with the Oasis people (and Weis people), speaking much the same language, but much better off in material and spiritual wealth. Why? Because the nomads' ability to use violence against them is limited. There has been some cultural and literal intermarriage between the Paps residents and Oasis folk, as when Oasis slaves have been kidnapped at one place and allowed to settle down elsewhere. A nomad Khan might ritually marry an Eiritha priestess, thus confirming her status in the eyes of the nomads--although it's something I hadn't given any thought to--but he would never settle down, and she would never leave her home. So the cultural gap remains. Your point on the trolls gives a REASON for learning cult magic, but not much of a METHOD. Alex `Maybe single quotes work?' Ferguson asks: >Anyone have good guesses as to which aspects are associated with Bolongo? > (Or come to that, with Eurmal, or with Rakenveg. I hereby bet my house > Firebringer is (most usually) a Eurmal aspect... Chaosium has an unpublished Eurmal/Trickster write-up that gives the distributions of the various aspects. When they said "well-travelled" in GoG, they meant _really_well_travelled_. Some of the aspects are only worshiped in two regions of Glorantha. I don't want to get into trouble by saying more, but maybe Someone In Charge will publish this in some magazine ... Codex, maybe? BTW, all those Pamaltelan cults also exist, though unpublished. Re: Population density Scientific American had an article some years ago about population densities in north European cultures before agriculture, and they were pretty close to the density achieved in agricultural societies. That's my model for the Rathori. Unfortunately, I don't remember the population/square mile from the article. I worked out the density for Heortland and Sartar once, and recall that Heortland's was about twice that of Sartar, but don't recall the exact figures. David Dunham asks: > What's the difference between the Stygian Heresy and the Henotheistic >Church in Ralios? They're the same thing, depending on who's doing the >naming, right? Well, you might get a different answer from Nick or someone else, but my answer appears in the Church History in Codex #2. Subscribe today! "And then I write By morning, night, And afternoon, And pretty soon My name in Dnepropretrovsk is cursed, When he finds out I publish first!" --Tom Lehrer, "Lobachevsky" --Martin --------------------- From: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: Two NPC's Message-ID: <email@example.com> Date: 14 Apr 94 00:57:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3630 Beaver and Butthead These are two young broos of an age which corresponds to 14 years in humans. They are an inseparable pair, despite not getting along with each other very well. They are obsessed with sex, like all broos, but not very experienced or daring (unlike most broos). Mention anything vaguely sexual around them, and they start laughing a peculiar "Heh-heh, heh-heh, heh-heh- heh-heh-heh," and saying things like "He said to GET OFF his horse, get it?" Their second favorite thing, after talking about sex, is watching other broos perform what passes for broo entertainment. Although they do not participate, lacking any skill in those areas, they freely comment upon the performances by saying, "This sucks," or "Cool." They are also pyromaniacs. Their low language skills are due to their feral origin. Beaver Malia initiate The offspring of a broo-beaver mating, Beaver has a generally beaveroid body, except for the hands, horns, and (barely) bipedal posture. He attacks by biting with his pronounced incisors and (3 SR later) slapping with his tail. However, he never fights unless forced into it, either by being cornered or by being coerced by a stronger broo. He carries a spear because stronger broos make him, but he will drop it and run if he can. STR 11 Move 4, Swim 3 CON 14 Hit Points 15 SIZ 16 Fatigue 25 INT 9 POW 8 DEX 10 APP 4 Weapon SR A% Damage P% Pts Bite 7 40 1D8 Tail Slap 10 35 1D4+1 1H Spear 6 25 1D8+1+1D4 19 10 Beaver delivers the tail slap either by turning or by swinging it up between his legs. Either way, if it hits, roll 1D10 for hit location. Skills: Swim 90%, Speak Chaosspeech 20, Firemaking 75%. Armor: 1 pt. fur on body, 3 point head. Spirit Magic (40%): Ignite. Disease: Carries Blotches and White Eye. If his bite does damage, he exposes his victim to both diseases. Possessions: fire-making equipment, including flint with focus for Ignite. Butthead Malia initiate Butthead has a unique chaotic feature, "Reversed Alimentary Canal, with Complications." The gods of chaos reversed the placement of his mouth parts and his hind end. He eats by sitting on his food, and his anus is where his mouth should be. Where broos normally have cheeks, he has buttocks, and vice versa. He attacks by spewing forth excrement in front of him or by casting spells. As a last resort, he can head butt, hoping to impale someone on his forward-pointing horns. Like Beaver, he is likely to run away from a fight. Like Beaver, he carries a spear for show. STR 9 Move 4 CON 13 Hit Points 13 SIZ 13 Fatigue 22 INT 8 POW 13 DEX 10 APP 2 Weapon SR A% Damage P% Pts Notes Spray 3 * Special See below Head Butt 8 37 1D6 Can impale Spear 7 22 1D8 21 10 *The spray of filth goes out 6 meters, and Butthead turns as he sprays, so as to get everyone in a 90 degree arc. The filth hits everyone in range in that arc. If Butthead successfully casts his Speedart, the spray does 3 points of damage to a random location. The foul stench subtracts 5% from all of a victim's skills until he or she bathes. The filth also exposes the person to The Blotches and Sniffles. Everyone hit should make a luck roll (POW x5) where failure indicates Something Worse. Roll a missile hit location to find out what the Something is. Head: temporarily blinded (1D6 melee rounds); arms: lose grip of anything held with that arm; chest or abdomen: anything carried on the body is befouled; legs: slip and fall. Skills: Speak Chaosspeech 20, Firemaking 75%. Armor: 3 point head, 1 point soft leather on body. Spirit Magic (65%): Disruption, Heal 1, Ignite, Speedart. Disease: Carries Blotches and Sniffles. Possessions: firemaking equipment (flint has focus for ignite).