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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 15 Apr 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: malkioni rule!
Message-ID: <9404142305.AA02717@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 14 Apr 94 11:05:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3646
Guy Robinson responds to my defence of the corrupt and sinister
Western culture.
>I am ... claiming that the lifestyle of the Western Wizard is
>dangerous because of the "corrupt" nature of that society,
This is a defensible position. My point was that if life is
SO dangerous for a wizard that he doesn't dare spend MPs on
beneficent magic, then a theistic priest living in the same territory
would be unlikely to worship a beneficent god. Instead, he would be a
Storm Khan or some other such parasite ;)
>Due to the social and non-magical ecologicial forces at work I am
>not convinced that in a more violent world the war Cults would
>soak up most of the initiates.
Why wouldn't the same apply to the Westerners? If reducing
the Bless Crops means famine for theists, reducing the benign sorcery
would do the same for Malkioni. I think that exactly the same
economic forces apply to both societies, though the way they are
responded to may be different.
>I think the there are softer options than trying to convert from
>Zorak Zoran to Flamal, although this is a very impressive extreme
>I must admit. I would suggest that people would more tend to
>subscribe to Orlanth in times of war with a mind to convert to
>member of his pantheon when the conflict is over.
Nonetheless, it's clear that wizards present a more flexible
option than a theistic pantheon, even among the Lunars, in which
switching from cult to cult is probably more common than anywhere
else in Glorantha (not only are the cults close friends, but none of
them have spirits of retribution!).
In my way of thinking, the advantage the wizards present over
the theists is short-term ability to react to changing circumstances.
They are flexible generalists. On the other hand, the theists
generally have MUCH better magic applying to their own specialties.
That is THEIR advantage. To some extent, it's six of one, half-dozen
of the other.
>Points of POW invested in self-protection do not yield this kind of
>tribute from society so they are discouraged, again by social means.
Once more you make a point that applies equally to theists
and to wizards. Are not wizards vulnerable to social pressure as much
as any priest?
>I could argue that society bound together by social interactions can
>be far more flexible than one which allots people their role through
>a distant, or inflexible, authority.
Who's arguing? I don't think the Westerners have any fewer
"social interactions" than the Theyalans. Just because their society
has more hierarchal levels (because their nations are bigger) doesn't
mean they're all little robot slaves to High King Sanford the
Unwieldy. It just means that in addition to the village headman, the
vicar, the knight, and the local nobleman, you must also consider the
needs of your nobleman's master, who lives fifty miles off. On the
other hand, you don't have to worry about the enemy tribe next door
-- most of your conflicts are intramural. Feuds and stuff, instead of
mini-wars, like the Orlanthi often fight.
>I know that as Cult can grow in power from an inauspicious start of
>an alledged encounter with a powerfull spirit by a soltairy shaman
>therefore it also follows that a cult can also be fabricated.The
>point that the God Learners choose cults shows that this approach
>must have advantages over sorcery.
I think there's no doubt that imaginary cults can be created
with greater facility among theists than new Invisible God heresies
can be formed. Though imaginary Saints are a possibility.
I think that it is possible to worship any god in a "false"
spiritist manner, and that this has been done ever since the Dawn. I
have no doubt that Kyger Litor has oft been tapped by human shamans
as Mother of Dark or something, and they've worshiped her via the
Horned Man method. I think that this is how Waha, Eiritha, and Storm
Bull were worshiped by the Praxians before the PHP showed them a more
efficient technique. Some deities may not have any potential for
greater worship than mere spirit-cult status. Certain Waha did, as
has been proven by the development of a fairly substantial cult from
an inauspicious beginning. Arachne Solara only knows how many other
gods languish in obscurity that could be active and vital religions,
solving big problems.
I submit this was part of the God Learners' techniques,
finding obscure spirits that were possessed of a Secret Power, and
inflating them to full cult status. Like the Forbidden God, Tanian.
>If the Cult strengthens the God it is focused on then I suspect that
>the Malikoni religion strengthens only the ... Sorcerer.
This point applies with even more force to the Kralori
religion, which directly channels POW and MPs to the Exarchs and
through them to the Emperor. On the other hand, they're open and
aboveboard about it, so I guess it's not a scam. Except inasmuch as
the individual Kralori is convinced that doing this benefits him in
some way.
>Priests are commonly invested only after a rigourous, magic-assisted
>grooming process while in some Western cultures you can be born a
>Wizard.
Not exactly -- you're born into the Wizard caste, but you
still have to meet certain qualifications to become an Adept or
whatever. I'm sure the westerners have "special" jobs open to
talentless wizardling caste members. Maybe they work in the back room
or something.
>After some retraining a rebel core of Wizards could attempt to
>destabilise a Sorcerous society
Yup. So could a rebel core of Knights. And let's not forget
Zzabur's two attempts to appropriate the duties (and thus destroy)
other castes of his own (Brithini) culture.
Jeff Johnson mentions:
>The more pertinent factoid is that such female hyenas have huge
>clitorises that cannot be distinguished except at very close range
>from penises.
I would like to continue some comments on this thread. Not
only is what Jeff says true, but the female hyena clitorises are
erectile(!) and often much bigger than the males (I'm talking long
red tubes that can hang down to the ground when relaxed).
However, I don't think the broos simply have masculinized
females. For one thing, it's well known that the broos generally
breed with non-broos. This fact would make enormous differences in
their society and evolution. Think how much effort is spent by
humans, wild horses, seals, sea-birds etc. on mate selection,
rival-suitor-combat, harem-guarding, and similar sexual activities.
There are animals who spend their entire adult lives devoted to this
in preference to eating. All this is suddenly discarded by broos,
with the possible exception of rivalry over a particularly desirable
female (though I suspect in such cases they engage in a group rape).
I'm sure that the broos replace these activities with others of their
own -- for instance, instead of traditional mate selection, they
engage in a predatory activity, hunting down the hapless "mates".
No wonder these monsters are impossible for humans really to
understand.
Martin says:
>I see the Paps residents as descended from common ancestors with the
>Oasis people
I think that the Paps population was originally Oasis folk,
but that that primal stock has been largely diluted. I don't think
Eiritha was one of the original Oasis deities, for instance, though
the Good Shepherd undoubtedly was. Because the Beast Rider
priestesses (and some priests) kept settling down there, and more
tribes visited the Paps and stayed longer than anywhere else, I
suspect the original trace of Oasis blood has been almost entirely
filtered out, or else is now spread throughout all the clans. I also
think that the Oasis folks at the Paps, whatever their current
status, showed more spirit and spunk than at the other oases, because
of the greater magical significance of the Paps and the nearness of
the gods. Even at the start, when the Paps folk were still racially
separable from the Beast Riders, I suspect the Beast Riders didn't
think of them in the same way as they do the Oasis Folk.
Ed Wallman states:
>In general, I find the western civilizations to be much more
>difficult to use for a game setting than good old barbarian
>settings.
I find this to be a very interesting comment, especially
since AD&D(TM), Pendragon, and most trash fantasy books almost
exclusively use this type of setting. Not that I disagree with Ed's
comment, but look at Safelster -- it's the classic Fantasy Setting,
right out of de Camp or Vance. You have a whole buncha little
personalized squabbling duchies and principalities. The whole has
sorcerers, priests, heresies, and cults. On one side are the savage
and grisly Barbarians (the Orlanthi, of course). On the other is the
ruthless, monolithic, and encroaching Empire (Tanisor).
It seems to me that nothing would be easier than putting a
campaign right there. Except of course for the common Gloranthan
curse that many GMs fear to make up stuff in the world for fear of
later contradiction. *sigh*
>We had two Malkioni soldiers playing once and no one could tell them
>apart
As you say, a failure in roleplaying. I'd like to point out
that anyone who can tell two different Orlanthi warriors apart should
be able to make two different Malkioni soldiers without much trouble.
Think Pendragon -- how similar are Gawaine, Lancelot, Agravaine,
Dinadan, and Sir Bruce Sans Pitie?
>In earth's middle ages Europe wealthy merchants would purchase
>nobility and priesthoods. Does this happen in Glorantha's west?
I can't imagine it doesn't. Hmm. Confusing double negative
there. Let's rephrase that. Of course!
>does a growing wealthy middle class threaten the nobility in
>Glorantha?
Why not? A shortage of wizards, or excess of soldiers, or
roving bands of freebooters can all cause problems in Malkioni lands.
A noble can be just as impoverished in Loskalm as in Burgundy. If the
crafters' guilds gain in money and wealth, the cities can become just
as independent of the old-timey nobles as they did in Europe. Or you
could have organizations formed like the Hanseatic League. Or the
Teutonic Knights. I'm sure similar types of groups form in every
Western land.
Are the barbarians stagnant for roleplaying because every
Storm Bull is exactly the same? I think there's as much roleplaying
opportunity in the west as anywhere.
>In most of Glorantha conflicts between good and evil mostly are
>conflicts between X worshippers and Y worshippers... If everyone in
>the land worships the same thing, then good and evil reduces down to
>believers and unbelievers.
Hmm. Apparently we run RuneQuest quite differently. In my own
campaigns, the conflicts between good and evil mostly are conflicts
between good guys and evil guys, both of whom may be worshiping the
same god. In Prax, for instance, everyone worships Waha, but the
Bison guys are still your enemies, because you're a Sable Rider. When
I've run in Dragon Pass, you get Lunar-sympathizing Orlanthi vs. the
Lunar-hating Orlanthi. Plus the fact that the Invisible God cult is
less monolithic than, say, Orlanth, so other guys worshiping it can
be quite bad (remember, there's no Spirits of Retribution to whip you
into shape) -- we get tons of Evil Knights, Wicked Wizards, Tyrant
Kings, etc. to deal with if you want 'em.
In addition, if you absolutely insist on having X and Y
worshipers to distinguish between white and black hats, you get keen
Heresies to add to a list of Bad Guys among the Westerners. And the
heretics can be rotten to the core, like my own portrayal of the
Galvosti and Borists (whom I run as baddies -- the chaos-fostering
Galvosti and zealot witch-hunting Borists). And let's not forget the
occasional conscienceless Brithini or Vadeli. Plus you have the Usual
Suspects to use as baddies -- trolls, dwarfs, broos, bandits,
dragonewts, etc. They're as nasty to the Malkioni as anyone. You also
get the scary Hsunchen and were-things up in the hinterlands.
>Since there's no Inhuman King in Ormsland (in Ralios), does this
>mean that Ormsland dragonewts don't resurrect?
In my campaign, the Ormsland dragonewt tribes boast very
minor versions of the Inhuman King (but permit some degree
ofresurrection). Some of the more barbaric tribes do not, in fact
resurrect, except after ritual suicides for the purpose of
progression; these held deep within the dragonewt nest. Some tribes
don't even progress past the third level of dragonewt-dom. I think
that these degenerate groups mostly turn into dinosaurs before they
get too far along the advancement chart. I'm not sure where these
dragon spawn come from. Maybe recent hatchings, like after the
Dragonkill War. So far as I know, there are only two true Inhuman
Kings: one in Dragon Pass and one in Kralorela. Kralorela also has
some less-advanced groups that have the same sort of minor inhuman
kings as in Ormsland.
David "we love Mastakos" Dunham sez:
>He owns the Motion rune, that's why he's "Major. Remember that if
>Mastakos only has shrines, there can't be more >spells.
Mastakos, to me, is a prime candidate for possible cult
development (like was done to Waha and Storm Bull). I suspect that if
a hundred thousand folks got together and began worshiping Mastakos
on a regular basis, the cult would rapidly develop, sprouting
previously-unguessed associates, subcults, new spells, etc. Maybe
even Rune Lords and such.
Gary Games opines:
>If a [Humakt] candidate showed aptitude but lacked skill, they would
>be taken on as lay members and given the opportunity to develop
>their sword fighting prowess.
>The point I am trying to make is I don't think it would be difficult
>to join a cult within one's own community provided the candidate is
>acceptable to the cult.
I strenuously agree. The only reason that a cult should have
difficult tests to pass to become initiate/runemaster/whatever is so
that the player will have a feeling of accomplishment when he finally
qualifies. If joining a cult is frustrating rather than an honor, the
process should be simplified for that character. I know the guy
running a troll in my campaign looks forward to the day when his Mace
skill finally achieves that lofty magic number of 75%, so he can
become a full initiate of Zorak Zoran. He'll feel like he's really
made something of himself. On the other hand, if everyone else in the
game got into Orlanth easily, and Bad-Dice-Rolling Jim can't make a
Jump to save his soul, a sponsor or similar fudging device should
probably be applied so that he isn't irked, rather than being
honored, by the initiation requirements.
>Can a broo parasitize itself?
I'm not sure I want to think about this. Maybe, if their
anatomy was enough chaotically screwed up. Wow, then you could invite
a broo to do something anatomically impossible, and it COULD!
Gary also points out that there must be female broos because
the darn things are chaotic. I think this is entirely probable. But
it doesn't change the fact that the norm is still male.
---------------------
From: Aden_Steinke@ms-gw.uow.edu.au (Aden Steinke)
Subject: Good and Evil in Glorantha
Message-ID: <199404140806.SAA10951@wyrm.cc.uow.edu.au>
Date: 15 Apr 94 05:02:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3636
Hi All;
sandyp said
> I consider this thread closed unless you can find me an
> example of a large-scale religion that thinks it's good to rob and
> kill on an everyday basis, w/o special permission from God.
There have several religions through history with different 'moral' viewpoints
to the christian/jewish/moslem view that dominates Europe/Africa/Nth&Sth
America/Australia today.
By the standards of the time the state religions central americans (inc Aztecs,
Maya, Toltecs) who practiced mass murder on a daily basis for religious reasons
(keep the sun alight etc) were large scale, and the worshippers of Kali in
India were likewise numerous untill a century ago. However infanticide has
been well documented in many cultures, particularly of baby girls - so the
institutionalised killing of living people for cultural as well as religious
reasons is known to occur.
Anyway, on Gloranthan morality, it seems clear to me that a Broo that goes
around raping and impregnating is not 'evil' he is merely following the
dictates of Thed, a biological imperative and the mores of his culture. It may
be repugnant to Solars or Sartarites, but would not stop him from being a
civil, cultured and polite broo in all other circumstances. A human, aldryami,
mostali or troll on the other hand, would probably have to be 'evil' to behave
like a broo. Furthermore those human, aldryami, mostali or troll that practice
robbing the craddles of baby giants are particularly 'evil' :).
Aden Steinke
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Pilgrimages
Message-ID:
Date: 14 Apr 94 10:03:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3637
Right now I'm hunting for mostly non-combat scenario ideas in
Heortland. I might have found an interesting starting point - a larger
group of pilgrims passing through, and receiving protection from the
PC's liege lord.
Now, how frequent are pilgrimages among Orlanthi, or among Malkioni,
and how large are pilgrims' parties? Biturian leads a party of pilgrims
through Prax, but it isn't made clear whether they come from Sartar,
Heortland, or some other place. I think they were heading to the Block,
although I don't know what business led them there.
I have already decided to spread shrines, chapels and holy places
sacred to certain aspects of a deity/Aeolian Saints in the land, not a
few of them in potentially dangerous area.
For which reasons would Orlanthi, or Malkioni, start a pilgrimage?
Atonement? Healing? Spiritual advancement?
My current, somewhat fuzzy ideas picture an unworldly elder Aeolian
bishop leading a flock of penitant city-folk through the countryside,
mostly in peaceful terrain, but into the hilly region around both
Footprint and Troll Woods. The Ealdorman of the Jaranings would be
responsible for their passage from Milran through his lands into the
Orshanti lands. With no apparent danger visible, he sends some of his
junior warrior retainers, when a Kolating shaman roaming the land
between Marzeel and Syphon river warns the pilgrims of dangerous
spirits.
Any ideas or help would be appreciated.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Malkioni & Female Broo
Message-ID: <9404141126.AA00771@Sun.COM>
Date: 14 Apr 94 11:27:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3638
Hi All
Ref: Ed Wallman on Malkioni
Remember that there are quite a few different Malkioni Churches.
1) They ALL regard the others as heratics of various degrees.
Remember the reponse of the Medieval Church to heratics (burn them)!
2) A few of the herasies allow Tapping... These are realy BAD GUYs.
3) If you need a realy Horrible opponent try an unaligned sorceror or
God forbid a Vampire.
4) Theists are another source of enemies.
5) Or you could go for the traditional mean and nasty, land grabbing local
baron (see all the medieval films such as Robin Hood [not the Costner verion] or Ivanhoe etc.) Remember the west is an ideal local for all these plots.
6) Finally if you want to allow the characters the chance of caste progression
make them Hrestoli from Loskalm which provides for progression from farmer
to lord. Although some synics have noted that lords sons tend to progress
faster and further than those of farmers...
The great Broo Debate:
Ref: Gary James
I am pretty sure that broos impregnate, not parasitize their hosts.
The justification for this is that the offspring have some of the
characteristics of the *mother*. Now I know that this could be explained
by some wierd for of chaos ability etc. but remember that broo were not
originally chaotic so their breeding mechanism is merely disorderly (and
VERY nasty) rather than chaotic.
Again, the argument that their chaotic nature *requires* that not
ALL broo be born male has a falacy in the fact that broos are not originally
chaotic. However, now that they are so closely tied to chaos I would agree
that the occassional broo might be born female, hermaphroditic or even neuter
as a DIRECT result of chaos. But I do not think that this is a reflection
on the underlying nature of broo, merely another example of the old maxim
that *nothing is certain with Chaos*.
What this means in practice is that if you want female broo in your
campaign use them (sparingly), they are not impossible. Also since they are
probably the result of some strange occurrence feel free to give them
unusual and individual abilities. I see no reason why female broo should
be the same, rather they are more likely to be individually unique with no
two actting alike. As for whether they give birth in the human or broo
fashion I am rather inclined to agree with Sandy in that it depends on the
father, but I doubt whether it is that clear cut.
-----
Lewis
-----