Bell Digest v940416p4

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 16 Apr 1994, part 4
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Tricksters
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Apr 94 17:40:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3663

Jonas Schiott in X-RQ-ID: 3639

> In the daily for Wed, April 12, Alex Ferguson brings up the problem of
> Trickster aspects:

>>> Bolongo: the local trickster sect. He only provides a very few  
>>> spells, and his worshipers are pitied, but not necessarily tolerated.

I have been disappointed about the Tricksters' Rune possessions for some 
time. The God Learners' associations for Eurmal (Illusion) and Bolongo 
(Disorder) seem wrong to me, and totally meaningless for Genertela. (I 
blame this text on one of the Umathelan universities.)

For Theyalans, Eurmal is the logical successor of Ratslaff, so his Runes 
would be a double disorder, and maybe a single Illusion. The logical choice 
for the double Illusion rune (accompanied by harmony) would be Donandar, 
whose puppeteer followers tellingly are quoted in RQ2 as wielders of this 
Rune.

Bolongo? Who's that? A mask?

>> Does this follow the same pattern as `generic' (GoG) pattern of Trickster
>> worship?  Anyone have good guesses as to which aspects are associated with
>> Bolongo?  (Or come to that, with Eurmal, or with Rakenveg.  I hereby bet
>> my house Firebringer is (most usually) a Eurmal aspect, and Borotory should
>> be compulsory for all Tricksters. )

Anything which annoys. I'm almost inclined to make Orlanth's impests not 
a gift from Malia (for hearing her case against Ragnaglar), but a token 
of Eurmal (possibly gleaned from Malia anyway) in exchange for the 
protection Orlanth offers his Fool.

> GoG states unequivocally that any Trickster worshipper can get spells from
> any shrine. This is the pragmatic side of things, and to me, it looks like
> strong evidence that Trickster is One.

Just as absolute order is One, absolute Disorder is One. While trickster 
isn't perfect (which is perfectly disorderly), he approaches it 
suffficiently.

> Of course, there is also the
> confusing statement about different "Trickster-type deities" combining
> different aspects. I interpret this as a comment on the differing
> mythologies of various pantheons, e.g. Bolongo is normally associated with
> certain acts in the Pamaltelan myths and so will be seen as personifying a
> limited range of aspects.

Trickster is associated with a limitless range of mythic acts. In Pamaltelan 
myth it was Trickster (Ratslaff, not Bolongo, I think) who gave Lodril the 
secret of making men - and promptly mucked it up in the first attempt, the 
Jelmre.

> But a Bolongo worshipper visiting a Eurmal shrine
> can still learn the spell. I don't know what justification they have for
> this - perhaps worshippers of the Trickster have fewer illusions about His
> (Its?) limitations than the 'squares' do.

I think Disorder is as all-embracing as is Chaos, although Disorder is _of 
the world_, not from without it. Their similarity made the disorderly (the 
Boggles, Zorak Zoran) the most effective fighters of Chaos.

> It will certainly never be a
> problem for a Eurmalite; the Eurmal myths seem to encompass just about
> every aspect (except maybe Murderer), and an orlanthi trickster travelling
> abroad would probably just think "Hmm, they seem to have a different name
> for Eurmal around here".

I'd phrase it like this: "Hmm, Eurmal tricked them to believe his name was 
."

> Of course, there is one practical effect of the aspect thing: it would seem
> to affect the geographic distribution of shrines, i.e. in an
> orlanthi-dominated region there would probably not be any shrines dedicated
> to non-Eurmal aspects (though it's unclear which they would be - in this
> respect Alex' question is very relevant).

This is one of my main reasons why Eurmal ought to be the source of Disorder: 
the source of Disorder would not allow himself to have an ordered cult 
structure. Illusion is a present, but secondary aspect of Eurmal, and hardly 
justifies his role as its source.

If Illusion was his main Rune, Eurmal would have a great illusionary 
cult hierarchy with lots of pompous offices. Doubtlessly the Trickster 
Great Temple (now lost beneath the Mourn Sea) constructed by the God 
Learners had this, but elsewhere the man trait is Disorder. (It won in 
Slontos, too...)

Brian Dickinson in X-RQ-ID: 3643

> argrath@aol.com writes:
>>      Chaosium has an unpublished Eurmal/Trickster write-up that
>> gives the distributions of the various aspects.  When they said
>> "well-travelled" in GoG, they meant _really_well_travelled_. 
>> Some of the aspects are only worshiped in two regions of
>> Glorantha.  I don't want to get into trouble by saying more, but
>> maybe Someone In Charge will publish this in some magazine ...
>> Codex, maybe?

I would publish any official cult write-up in Free INT, provided I get the 
permission and learn of its existance first. (Sorry, in German only).

> Yes please!! I've been trying to get information on Eurmal for some
> time, without any success. Does anyone know of any other sources of
> Eurmal info??

Make it up. Think of any embarrassing story about any deity, and blame it 
on one of the tricksters. By the nature of the deity we discuss, it will 
come true, or at least seem to be so.

> I'm also confused by the use of the name "trickster" for both
> Eurmal cultists and Nysalor Illuminates. Does this imply that
> Eurmal initiates are commonly thought of as illuminated!
> One of the lightbringers chaotic? surely not! - unless this is 
> one of Eurmals more spectacular jokes!

Riddlers ask silly questions and disrupt normal life. Since that is 
what tricksters usually do - being a nuisance - they are viewed to be 
in the same category.

Illuminates aren't necessarily chaotic. Arkat certainly wasn't before 
entering Dorastor.

Yet another multi-purpose term like krjalki.

> Also what is Eurmals relationship to illusions. A recent TOTRM
> (not to hand unfortunately) had a Eurmal/trickster (again trickster?)
> hero with illusion magics. I had the feeling that illusions were from
> some other source - I first remember seeing them in Questworld (Lord
> Skydds(?) Manor).

In currently actual publications Eurmal is given as source of Tylenea's 
Power in Time. I contest this notion, see above.

> Can someone enlighten (illuminate?) me?

No, but I hope this will have tricked you. 
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: RQ3 spirit magic casting chance
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Apr 94 17:41:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3664

Lewis Jardine in X-RQ-ID: 3641

> Finally I got round to looking in the RQ3 magic book and sure enough the 
> casting chance for spirit magic is POW*5 - ENC; the magic bonus is not 
> mentioned and the text implies that this is the complete formula.  I think 
> that this was on page 16 or thereabouts.  Also divine magic is 100 - ENC.  
> Only in sorcery and ritual magic is the magic bonus included (as it would 
> have to be with the casting chance for spells starting at d6% - ENC.  

The most current version seems to be that of the RQ3 errata. I think there 
it was POW*5 + bonus - ENC, because most supplements are using this rule.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: fletcher@u.washington.edu (Brent Krupp)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 15 Apr 1994, part 1
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Apr 94 06:17:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3665

> From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) 
> Ed Wallman states:
> >In general, I find the western civilizations to be much more 
> >difficult to use for a game setting than good old barbarian 
> >settings. 
> >We had two Malkioni soldiers playing once and no one could tell them 
> >apart 
> As you say, a failure in roleplaying. I'd like to point out 
> that anyone who can tell two different Orlanthi warriors apart should 
> be able to make two different Malkioni soldiers without much trouble.  
> Think Pendragon -- how similar are Gawaine, Lancelot, Agravaine, 
> Dinadan, and Sir Bruce Sans Pitie? 

I think the issue may also involve telling apart two characters from the
Orlanth PANTHEON. In my Dragon Pass and Prax campaigns there were only
rarely several Orlanthi to tell apart, as people could be Humakti,
Issaries, whatever, and non-humans *kinda* fit-in. There were lots of
different, but *compatible* traditions for the characters to follow and
the players to role-play. In the West, all the wariors in a group seem
like they will be very similar, essentially all in the same 'cult'. Sure
there's heresies, but do adventurers of different heresies really hang out
together as well as Orlanthi and Humakti do (for instance)? Plus, in the
West, all non-humans are Krjalki, removing that source of difference. I
did run a Ralian campaign, and this is exactly the problem we had. All
humans, all Stygian heretics (some sorcery and some spirit magic)... kinda
hard to tell them apart. Yes, there *was* role-playing to do that, but it
is nice when there is more than JUST that... 

> 	Are the barbarians stagnant for roleplaying because every  
> Storm Bull is exactly the same? I think there's as much roleplaying  
> opportunity in the west as anywhere. 

Maybe part of the problem is just that we know so much more about the 
different tribes of Prax, and thus it is easy to imagine lots of 
different Storm Bullies (and Uroxi... a difference within 'one' cult 
right there). Over in Ralios,m the ref is left to his own devices. Not 
all of us are as endlessly creative as some of the people on this list, 
and I at least have not had the TIME to be that creative for years. So 
Western campaigns remain much more difficult.

Brent Krupp (fletcher@u.washington.edu)

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From: fletcher@u.washington.edu (Brent Krupp)
Subject: Oops, forgot to change the subject header last time...
Message-ID: 
Date: 15 Apr 94 06:31:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3666

> From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
> Devin points out that RQ supplements need better proof reading (non argument).
> However he then goes on to state that the RQ3 chance of casting Spirit Magic 
> is POW*5 + Magic Bonus - ENC.  This is not the way I play it (no Magic Bonus) 
> but since I keep quite a few bits of RQ2 in my play to cover up the obvious 
> holes in RQ3 I did not comment immediately.  
> Finally I got round to looking in the RQ3 magic book and sure enough the 
> casting chance for spirit magic is POW*5 - ENC; the magic bonus is not 
> mentioned and the text implies that this is the complete formula.  I think 
> that this was on page 16 or thereabouts.  Also divine magic is 100 - ENC.  
> Only in sorcery and ritual magic is the magic bonus included (as it would 
> have to be with the casting chance for spells starting at d6% - ENC.  

Yes, that is how the RQ3 Magic Book does it, but every supplement to RQ3 
that I am aware of makes some effort to include magic bonus in Spirit and 
Divine cast chances. Though as Devin points out, they often add wrong. 
It IS a good thing, IMNSHO, as it allows divine magic to remain pretty 
much 95% certain despire armor (priests and lords wear lots o' armor, but 
have lot o' magic bonus!).

Brent Krupp (again...)

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From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Chaotic Thoughts
Message-ID: <199404152128.OAA11352@netcom8.netcom.com>
Date: 15 Apr 94 07:28:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3667

	It's been awhile since I sent anything to the digest but I've
got a bit more time now to muse on things Gloranthan. So here's what
I've been pondering of late while awaiting the coming of the green
moon...
	Lunars and Lunar Sorcerors
What ever happened to lunar magic from GoG? I thought the variant on
spirit magic was much more interesting than the RQ3 rules for sorcerors
but judging from the supplements it's not any where near as common as
regualr sorceror in the Empire. I was at least expecting the Red Goddess
initiate in Strangers to have Lunar Magic.

	Heroquests
	I was thinking about the Magic the gathering card game the other day
when it occured to me that something like this would make for a great
play aid for heroquests. For those of you who've been living in a cave
of late Magic the Gathering is a card game where each player has his or
her own deck of cards which can be compeletely different from their
opponents deck. And if you win you get a card from the looser's deck. 
	This could work well for heroquesters. Each could have a hand of
cards with powers from their cult. And then as they went throught he
heroquest they would loose and gain cards from the beings and events
they encountered.
	Now this wouldn't fit into everyone's view of how to roleplay a
heroquest but then I don't think anything can. Every group and every
person in a group is going to have a different view and a different
level of awareness when they play out a heroquest. Some groups are just
going to view a heroquest as a powergamers dream, and that's fine. For
them maybe SuperRQ style rules are best. Other groups might have a
greater appreciation for archetypes and myths and basically get together
to tell a story. And still others groups have other views I'm sure. But
I think cards or soemthing like them could make for a great aid to
Heroquesting. They appeal to me alot more then dice and percentiles at
any rate. :)

	Illumination and Arkati
	I'm curious to know hom many people use Illumination in their
games. How many campaigns have had PC illuminates? And has anyone
developed any Illuminate philosophies? I think Illumination has alot of
roleplaying and story potential but I wish we had more information. How
does a Lunar Red Goddess worshiping illuminate differ from an Arkat
Stygian heresy westernor and how do they both differ from a Troll
follower of Arkat?
	And does anyone know of any write ups of any of the various off
shoots of Arkat worship? Other than the one in Troll Gods of course. 
-- 
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet             

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From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Building your own Glorantha
Message-ID: <199404152159.OAA13874@netcom8.netcom.com>
Date: 15 Apr 94 07:59:38 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3668

One of the problems any Glorantha fan has to face is the lack of
material for Glorantha. AH doesn't seem like it intends to increase the
rate of production of new RQ supplements any time soon. And the
supplements that are coming out from AH are all set in the Sartar/Prax
region. 
	I now have more than enough information to run a campaign in
Prax that could last for years using the supplements out now. But the
rest of Glorantha needs to be detailed as well. Now we have been lucky
enough to see the growth of excellent publications like TOTRM and Codex
but I'm not sure developing the Lunar Empire can be done in the 'zines.
Though a year of theme issues, Lunar Magic, Lunar Cults, Lunar
Cities, etc might work...;)
	Other than writing your own material the only other way to get
info for a Gloranthan campaign is to steal it from other settings. Ars
Magica and Pendragon can both furnish usefull ideas and adventures for
the West for instance. But by and large Glorantha is so uniquely
Gloranthan that adapting anything to the world takes as much time and
creativity as starting from scratch. At least for me it seems that way.
Does anyone have any good suggestions/comments on adpating other rpg
material to Glorantha?
	What I'd really like to hear is what areas other people on the
Digest would like to see developed. Here's my own top 5 list.
	1) The Arkat cults and Illumination in general
	2) Dragonnewts
	3) Lunar Empire
	4) Sog City
	5) Heroquesting

Of course my real number 1 choice is to find out the Secret of the god
learners. :) For that matter how many people have actually come up with
a secret for their own campaigns? I was thinking of running a Glorantha
campaign not to long ago and came up with a secret I could use if the
PCs ever really tried to learn the Secret. Naturally I'm sure it would
be gregged, but who cares? 
-- 
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet             

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From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org
Subject: MALKIONI
Message-ID: <9404152045.A1913wk@chrysalis.org>
Date: 15 Apr 94 18:45:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3671


An intriguing mystery about the magic of the Malkioni faiths is that sorcer
does NOT derive from the Invisible God directly, but from so-called "humanist"
sources. Sorcery is a skill which can be trained up without knowing much at all
about the Malkioni religion. One does not have to belong to the "one true
faith" (whichever that one is), and indeed, there ae renegade malkioni
sorcerors who are not wizards, i.e. the priesthood of the Invisible God. This
has always struck me as a bit peculiar; I'd have expected something a little
more like the Saintly cults in such a medieval setting, but not a skill-based
magical tradition.
 
GUY HOYLE
aka Valgrim Bull-Answers-Twice (go on, ask me!)
 

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