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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Apr 1994, part 2
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: The only good non-initiate.
Message-ID: <9404181956.AA03077@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 18 Apr 94 19:56:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3702
De Nick Brooke:
> Alex wrote:
> > If failure in trying to join a cult, very likely in some circumstances,
> > means immediate expulsion for the clan or tribe, this is a much more
> > serious consequence. Normally with cults you can try again later, and
> > don't suffer deleterious results in the meantime in any case.
> Back in the Old Days, the initiation rites into Orlanth were *lethal* for
> anyone who failed. Yeah, that's the ones every adolescent male had to pass
> in order to become an adult.
I'm aware of this, but I bet the failure rate wasn't 90% in the Good Old
Days. Presumably the initiands were older, or the tests were `easier'.
(Than the three skills from five test, that is.) It also makes more
sense for failure to be initiated to entail inability to join the clan
(say, due to being dead) in the more conservative clans, where membership
of a particular cult is mandatory.
> Don't come whinging to me about "deleterious
> results" of failing initiation in this wimpish modern world...
I'm disputing that they are that way: there's no real evidence (much less
logic), after all.
> Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 3559
> > Except that there were NO cults in Prax until the Pure Horse people came
> > there. Remember, the PHP were successful because they had true divine magic.
Where is this stated thusly? They may simply have had `better' magic.
> > Sure, Urox was a part of the mythology of Prax, but there was no cult, just
> > shamanism.
Joerg:
> How do you define a cult, when you say there weren't any in Prax?
It seems likely to me that Waha has been worshipped since the Dawn, though
one might say his worship began as a more shamanicly oriented cult than
at present. This is only a difference of degree, though.
> Yes, all these mythological figures which DO receive worship via other
> cults are one of the reasons why I advocate initiation into a pantheon.
This doesn't appear to me to be an argument in favour of pantheon worship
as opposed to associate worship.
As a general point, I don't think it's always the case that mythologically
important figures receive much worship. The example of Ameratsu in Japan
springs to mind. I'm not sure how far this is true in Glorantha, apart
from Gods which are effectively unreachable by worship.
> Right now I help myself with the one religion - many saints concept for
> the Aeolian church.
Heortland isn't an area I'm very familiar with, but your ideas for the
religion are interesting, at any rate. My own suspicion would be that
they're not as heavily Malkionised as this: the Henotheistic Church
doubtless has something not unlike this structure. (To wit, having
theistic entities as Saints.)
> I would have let him pass as an adult, but not as a full member of
> the clan. For one thing, he wouldn't have been included in the oath of
> allegiance ceremony to Clan and Lord after the tests, for the other thing,
> he would have remained lay member and not Associate Initiate member
> of the Aeolian Church.
If I ask what an Associate Initiate is, will I end up frothing at the mouth?
> The day after the adulthood initiation the young men are members of
> the Aeolian Church. They may have chosen a patron Saint/Deity and even
> been tested in the appropriate skills, but they don't belong to that
> patron's subcult until they have undergone the specific rites of this
> cult on the appropriate holy day.
At the risk of soundfing less dogmatic than usual, I would say this sort
of cult structure (which is roughly what had been proposed by way of
pantheon initiation) seems highly appropriate, for the kind of society
and religion Joerg envisages in Heortland. But without the central
importance of one deity, and the ancilliary status of the others, this
structure would be (much, IMPO) less appropriate. For example, for the
Old Time Polytheists of Sartar, say.
> They are adults, nonetheless.
I still wanna know why everyone is so convinced one can't become an adult
without becoming (some kind of) religious initiation. Readings from the
Collected Works of He Who Is Greg, citations of convincing earthly
parallels (specifically _not_ cases where initiation need be to one
specific deity), or even, if the worst comes to the worst, looking up the
RQ rules.
> A Voriof initiate would be a boy who
> has reached the age of school-boy, and is receiving tasks vital to the
> community, although not difficult, like keeping the sheep.
While I'm not going to contend one _has_ to be a shephard in order to
worship Voriof, I believe the vast majority of his worshippers are, at
least on an occasional basis. I dislike the idea of Voriof simply being
a `generic stage' deity: I'm sure he has a distinct cult of his own. After
all, Voria does, albeit a non-standard and wimpy one.
> This stage of
> Low initiation is not restricted to one deity only, though, and a
> crafter's proto-apprentice would be considered a "Voriof initiate" as
> expression of his age group in the pantheon, even if already an advanced
> lay member of Gustbran.
I disagree, vehemently, vociferously, and I've-gone-over-my-reasons-for-
doing-so-ly.
> The Voriof initiation doesn't count for adulthood,
> but allows minor partaking in religious ceremonies, more so than a visiting
> participant of a foreign religion could.
I'd agree with this bit, though.
> > "[...] You want to become a Sun-Domer? Never
> > darken my door again, ex-son."
> (And: Why "darken"? A Sun-Domer shines!)
I bow to your superior pedantry. ;-) (This time!)
> Subject: Me and Sandy
That's "Sandy and I". ;-) ;-) ... ;-) Revenge is a dish best microwaved
swiftly and scoffed before anyone else can do anything about it.
> Sandy wonders about agreeing with me, and Alex titles a subject:
> "Joerg slays Sandy."
> Do I write this offensive?
No, not at all: my subject line was purely in reference to you and Sandy
carrying out a classic "Orlanth vs. Yelm" argument, which I have to confess
had in fact pretty much fizzled out by the time I finally posted the above.
While I'd say Joerg has what one might call a Vigorous writing style,
possibly even Combative, he's not the only one in these here parts
(ahem), and A Good Thing Too, say I. This list has been admirably devoid
of free-form ad hominem flamage, and so long as it does, I think there's
no harm in mildly heated debate. If I ever call Sandy a Nysalor-loving,
fragment of Rakenveg's toenail fellow-traveller of the Predark, you can be
sure it's necessary in the context of the discussion.
[
\
%=/& <- Wakbothian smiley.
~ "
Nor would I ever, say, attempt to use the recent discussion of sports
such as cricket as an excuse to provoke some of our more Sassenach
contributors in any way. [3-1, 503-4, Lara 320 no.]
> While I attacked Sandy's picture of Yelm as the friendly beard in the Sky,
> and disagreed with a few other statements of Sandy, I do agree with
> most of Sandy's writing (all that I don't comment upon). Only not in
> public, until now.
You do? Heretic!
Talk of the devil,
> >I don't think joining an Orlanthi (say) cult other than one`s
> >parents' is really any kind of `conversion' in our modern sense.
> >After all, the cults are non-exclusive, unlike most earthly and all
> >monotheistic religions
And a Sandy is sure to appear:
> Surely you jest.
Isn't that my line?
> Modern monotheism is not particularly
> exclusive within the various groupings. The various Protestant faiths
> are non-exclusive. Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans,
> Anglican/Episcopalians, etc. are tolerant of one another.
I even know a Pentecostalist who talks to Roman Catholics. My point
wasn't that they are (all) mutually hostile, but that they are _exclusive_:
you don't do both simultaneously, while you can do with polytheistic
religions.
> Yet most 15 year old kids who go to church go to their
> parents' church. If Dad and Mom are Presbyterians, the kids probably
> are Presbyterians, too, though they may change later. Keep in mind
> the parents being Presbyterian in our later discussions.
An example close(ish) to mine own heart.
> I see joining Issaries instead of Lhankor Mhy as being more
> like attending the Free Will Baptist Church instead of the
> Presbyterian one.
I think these analogies are a little strained. After all, we're dealing
with (ostensibly) compatible ways of worshipping different gods, not
distinct ways of worshipping the same one. Hence there's more motivation
to change religions, and (probably) less hassle.
> Another logical way to look at it is lifestyles, rather than
> as religion. If your kid becomes a Storm Bull, it's a little like him
> becoming a member of a biker gang.
Except that Uroxi have bulls, not hogs. I (have already) agree(d) that
there are social pressures to stick to your parent's religion, in Glorantha
and everywhere else. We can quibble about their exact magnitude. My
contention is simply that there aren't likely to be sledgehammer-like
mechansisms in most Orlanthi clans that would effectively refuse full
membership of the clan because someone wished to join an otherwise-
acceptable religion.
> >Another possible fudge would be to say that if one has a parent in a
> >"closely enough" (see previous hand-waving on this subject)
> >associated cult, then this is good enough for a `free' initiation.
> Or if your uncle or aunt or cousin was an initiate in the
> proper cult, perhaps they could be your sponsor instead of your
> parents.
This is a Good Point(TM). Although one doesn't just need a sponsor, but
also correct indoctrination beforehand. Perhaps this is yet another case
for a sliding scale instead of one-thing-or-t'other rules, with differing
degrees of difficulty of the initiation test depending on the degree of
familiarity between cult and aspirant.
> >Colour me morally relativistic, but I think speaking glibly of "bad
> >gods" in any absolute sense makes no more sense on Glorantha than on
> >Earth.
> Alas, I'm no moral relativist. Most faiths on Earth proclaim
> similar acts as "good", from Muslim to Judaism, to Jainism to Shinto.
> [...] the big crimes of adultery, murder, theft,
> are pretty much agreed upon by unrelated cultures across the world.
Only in outline: Jainism's definition of murder barely resembles that of
Shinto, and there are considerable differences between Islamic and (`Old
Testament') Judaic notions of adultery. Mainly I'd quibble with the
distinction between `common' and `absolute', were I to defend relativism
at length, which you'll all be relieved to hear I'm not going to.
> I think that most Gloranthan sects are similar, and that
> Zorak Zoran (for instance), being a troll-designed cult, tends to
> attract only the mightiest of assholes among humans for its cult
> members.
My principal point was that priests of all religions tend be be (very
broadly) under similar severities of `moral' or behavioural restrictions.
A ZZ Death Lord is hardly less restricted than a Rokari Wizard, just very
differently so.
Mind you, I suspect that Mighty Arsehole would probably be considered a
generous compliment among Uzkind. I doubt they'd approve of the effete
American alternative pronounciation, though. ;-P
> >Another minor point: who/what are the denizens of the Yelmic Fifth
> >Hell? Is it specifically trolls, undead, or both; or is it catch all
> >for all the Really Bad things in hell, to wit anything not fitting
> >the orderly Four Hells ruled by Lodril?
> I vote for the last. The Fifth Hell is probably bigger than
> the first Four put together.
Makes sense. But it begs the question of who the Demons from the Fifth Hell
in GRAY actually are. Undead, trolls, or Unnameable Others?
Alex the Intemperate.
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From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Whoops Re:Lunar magic skills
Message-ID: <199404180746.AAA02867@mail.netcom.com>
Date: 17 Apr 94 17:46:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3693
That'll teach me to bitch about something after just glancing it over. I
have found the magic skill section of the charcater sheets and am quite
glad to see lunar magic skills. My follow up question is how is lunar
magic viewed by sorcerors? I'm not quite sure what advatage their is to
learning skills like amplify and such when you could be spending your
time learning sorcery. Or rather why a magic type character would
develop both lunar magic and sorcery.
Perhaps Maculus is unusual since he's had a long time to spend
learning different skills. Or perhaps sorceors who have already
developed their sorcery skills to adept level then concentrate on lunar
magic(assuming they are Red Goddess initiates)
--
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
---------------------
From: curtiss@netcom.com (Curtis Shenton)
Subject: Campaigning in different ages
Message-ID: <199404180816.BAA04649@mail.netcom.com>
Date: 17 Apr 94 18:16:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3694
Has anyone ever run a campaign set in other than the Thrid Age in
Glorantha? Glorantha history is so rich it it could be the basis of
endless campaigns set in different periods. Personally my first two non
third age ideas are both in the second age.
I'd love to run or play in a campaign based on the Gbaji wars.
But with the players all starting out as Illuminates within Nysalor's
empire. Start the characters in Dorastor, which from my reading seems to
have been a pretty nice place to live before Arkat shows up, right about
the time Arkat gets started. So they hear news which presents Arkat as
evil incarnate marching their way. Assuming you've got a group of good
roleplayers dealing with the philosophical aspects to Illumination and
with the idea that Arkat might be right would be alot of fun to play.
From my own experiance a foe the character like and admire and wish they
didn't have to fight is the type of NPC the players will remember for a
very long time. As long as the PCs are presented with a balanced view of
things, on the one hand Dorastor and the heart of Nysalor's empire is a
wonderful place and the people are enlightened yet on the other hand
Arkat is cleansing the land of a very real evil.
The other campaign I'd like to try is a group of Godlearners.
This would be a very different sort of campaign to run since you'd have
to really develop your camapign's version of Heroquesting and the gods.
Plus to really drive the point home of just what sort of damage the
godlearners did I'd make some large scale changes in the world that the
PCs would be confused by. Like having a White Sun/Moon in the sky all
the time, or Yalmol the god who stole Zorak Zoran's Darkness powers in
the Godtime.
Of course a Fourth Age game would be fun too but I'd like to
wait for Greg's book on the Lunar to come out before I'd really try to
develop such a setting.
--
Curtis Shenton curtiss@netcom.com internet & 4@3091 WWIVnet
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Top 5 Glorantha supplements and Malkioni magic
Message-ID:
Date: 18 Apr 94 08:23:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3695
Curtis Shenton in X-RQ-ID: 3668
> What I'd really like to hear is what areas other people on the
> Digest would like to see developed. Here's my own top 5 list.
> 1) The Arkat cults and Illumination in general
> 2) Dragonnewts
> 3) Lunar Empire
> 4) Sog City
> 5) Heroquesting
1) Lunar Provinces
2) Lands and Gods of Dragon Pass
3) Lunar Heartland
4) Holy Country
5) West Maniria
Guy Hoyle in X-RQ-ID: 3671
> An intriguing mystery about the magic of the Malkioni faiths is that sorcer
> does NOT derive from the Invisible God directly, but from so-called "humanist"
> sources. Sorcery is a skill which can be trained up without knowing much at all
> about the Malkioni religion. One does not have to belong to the "one true
> faith" (whichever that one is), and indeed, there are renegade malkioni
> sorcerors who are not wizards, i.e. the priesthood of the Invisible God. This
> has always struck me as a bit peculiar; I'd have expected something a little
> more like the Saintly cults in such a medieval setting, but not a skill-based
> magical tradition.
Archbishop Suranthir the Non-heretic answers:
"My son, there is no magic but from the Invisible God. He created the
world, and He ordered the Powers, the Forms and the Elements.
Then, when Creation was almost finished, Creator paused in the West to look
at his work once again. And He saw how the Elements clashed, and how the
Powers opposed each other, so he created the Kingdom of Logic, to
demonstrate how all of Creation could coexist in Harmony.
There in the Kingdom of Logic all the forces of Creation became obvious,
and the people learned to use them. These were the teachers of Zzabur,
son of the prophet, who unified their techniques and taught them to
his followers. But in doing so Zzabur deprived himself of the powers
of Faith, and so the Brithini have neither Saints nor Deities. Yet in
the Kingdom of Logic all of these forms could be found, before the
struggle of the Elements led to the Ice Age wich destroyed the perfect
balance of the Kingdom. But terrible though this cataclysm was, it
helped Malkion find Solace in the Invisible God, and spread it all
over the world.
Now if the priests of the Elements stray from their ways, they lose
their special connection to this element. The wizards of the Malkioni
church are connected to all of Creation, and they cannot lose this
connection except by leaving Creation. This would only be possible
if they entered the Void, which Solace may forbid."
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.xerox.com
Subject: Principles of Worship and Linguistics
Message-ID: <_18-Apr-94_10:42:27_+1_.*.Guy_Robinson.sbd-e@rx.Xerox.com>
Date: 18 Apr 94 09:42:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3696
Well I am going to be busy soon, working a number of projects including
a soft roleplaying game for parent to play with their children and the
net efforts to revive the micro-game format, but it has been a very
interesting discussion and I have thoroughly enjoyed it.
If I was to seek for a single item to be published I would look for
discussions on the nature and interactions between of cults, religions
and shamantic practises within Glorantha. Why I would even be prepared
to invest the research time to write it.
As a playtester and active participant on the RQ4 I have seen a lot of
debates and discussions about the nature of the sources and dynamics of
magic within Gloranthan. I envisage that an Apocrypha could be published,
containing a whole set of contradicting view points about this side of
magic.
To avoid it being Gregged it might have to be a brazen Unofficial
Gloranthan product. In keeping with my opinions about role playing
it would be aimed to empower the GM be to be creative, rather than
to just follow published material in a docile manner.
Just an idea. I will probably be devoting my efforts in directions
that have a better chance of publication. After all I have an
investment in a cheap DTP package that I wish to recoup.
I think the Western Cultures are underused as a Good Medieaval society
except in the way that it can be used as foil for the Lunar Empire
who most people, but not everyone, uses as the protagonists for their
campiagns. However this is merely my humble opinion and people
should use whatever version of Glorantha that supports their style
of play.
I recognise that spelling was the land of Genert, a far safer word
to spell :-), was entirely Freudian in the nature of the error. This
was probably due to reading too many mail-notes discussing how this
name could be misprounced :-)
I am not a linguist either but theoretically alternative names based
on principles designed by a good linguist should be recognised by
anyone, even a poor pseller like me. :-)
Fantasy name kill fantasy works for me and I find that unless
principle are explicitly stated people find it very hard to come
up with a suitable name for their characters.
I will continue to read the daily and contribute here and there.
Regards
-- Guy Robinson --