From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 19 Apr 1994, part 5
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: St Eurmal and Gloranthan chivalry
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Apr 94 17:23:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3684
Joerg mot Sverige?
Jonas Schiott in X-RQ-ID: 3660
> Another version of mythology states that there are powers at work that
> _preceed_ the Runes. Glorantha, for one. In the more abstract versions,
> they are called things like Maker and Grower. Now, since these published
> beings are also stated to be later associated with certain deities (Mostal
> and Aldrya, I think - could be Mostal and Flamal), couldn't there also be a
> primeval Trickster who has been simplified both through the idea of Runes
> and the later development of Deities? The reason for there being two major
> runes connected to Trickster is of course that it's such a complex and
> confusing entity. I would appreciate any comments on this suggestion.
Aeolian dogma:
"Glorantha was created when Creator formed Grower and Maker. From both
sprang the Spirit pervading the world, Glorantha.
Grower and Maker obeyed the Runes Creator had devised, and out of their
actions formed the first element, Darkness, from which flowed Water,
inside which grew Earth, above which lay Sky. Between these two Air sprang
into being, the last and most sophisticated of Elements.
As Creator had seen fit, each element held Stewardship of the world,
until the next took over. Thus Nakala ruled through her triple
offspring Subere, Himile and Dehore, Zaramaka through his triple
offspring Daliath, Framanthe and Sramak, Gata through the other three
corners of the Earth (Rune Empress Earth, Earth Witch and Genert), Aether
through his three sons Dayzatar, Yelm and Lodril."
Afterwards trouble resulted from the sky not yielding stewardship, but
that's another story.
> On a lighter note, if Illusion is temporary reality, isn't reality just a
> big illusion with lots of Extension? And wouldn't that make Trickster the
> Creator? Now I know this is not The Truth, because I suggested it to Greg a
> few years back and he was exceedingly sceptical (I think he's an
> ontological realist at heart). But I'm still willing to bet that it's what
> the Eurmal cultists believe...
Thanks. I'd guess to Aeolian Eurmali (or the "Mocking Wind" "college" of
wizardry) Creator wants to have fun now and then, and appears as Trickster
within his great plaything "temporal magical creation" called Universe.
Nils Weinander in X-RQ-ID: 3662
> Against better judgement I enter this discussion. Although the theory
> that IG is just a scam has merits I think it is too drastic. After all,
> the Malkioni saints give their worshippers real benefits. I do however
> think that the Malkioni get a crappy deal compared to the theists. Any
> cult member who is an initiate can get one-use rune magic and divine
> intervention, and they can advance to become priests or rune lords. In
> addition they can learn useful spirit magic. What do the malkioni get?
> The possibility to learn a few sorcery spells if the society of their
> homeland isn't too restrictive. Unless they are Hrestoli they have no
> possibility at all of advancement.
No chance of advancement? Every good Malkioni can aspire to become a
Saint of his church, if she wants to walk the hero path. A Rokari
farmer could become the patron of plowman or the protector of saplings.
A crafter could become the acknowledged Saint of his particular craft, or
technique. Both without leaving the confinements of his caste.
Of course this is not as heroic or useful as to learn how to chop off three
heads in one strike. ;-)
> As for roleplaying opportunities in the Gloranthan west I can't see
> why they should be less than in theistic parts of the world. I do
> think that the west is bland and colourless though. Knights and wizards
> are fine, but they feel like generic fantasy and totally out of place
> in the marvellous creation of Glorantha with its living mythology and
> magical geography.
Knights feel generic because people choose to view them like Hollywood
King Arthur movies. There is more to knighthood, though.
Most Loskalmi knights seem to be Byzantine heavy lancers rather than
Maximilian (or crusading) knights: they ride in well-defined
battalions, or serve as officers in the foot troops of these. The
footmen are those members of the farmer caste who aspire to become
(fighting) knights. There is no indication whatsoever that the
battalions are formed along feudal lines, they seem rather to be
subject to the duke or gouvernour of the province only.
There is little reason to form feudal regiments in Loskalm, after all.
The local defense units against mobile raiders was unnecessay during
the Syndics Ban, and the challenges Loskalm has to deal with now don't
have to cope with quickly striking foes like Hungarians or Vikings. The
elf forests to the north and the south pose no direct threat of
invasion or raids (other than on lumber parties), the sea is guarded
both by the Loskalmi navy (which has suppressed the most likely source
for raiders, the Ygglinga) and the Closing, and to the East there are
buffer states like Junora and Sog City which have to deal with human
invaders. Along the Dilis swamp and the Gharkor gap the battalions are
stationed in the foothills, and in Junora and Oranor they are staioned
even outside the Loskalm borders. Sog and Retrint are under control of
mercenary street judges of the metropolis. Should any of these attempt
a raid, the retribution wouldn't let them even take refuge with the
warlords of the Kingdom of War.
So Loskalm is out as typical medieval western knight.
So is Carmania. Originally from Loskalm, the Carmanian knighthood is
likely to provide the only body of heavy cavalry lancer-archers on
Genertela. They have installed a feudal society - as conquerers over a
mixed Barbarian Belt and Pelorian farmer population. Then they in turn
were integrated into the Lunar Empire as the Persian heartlands were
into Alexander's Macedonia.
Ralios may have a late feudal society between the cities, but all
policy in Safelster is city business, and the knights are secondary in
military importance to the mercenary battalions - again not a feudal
institution.
This leaves Seshnela as the only place where you can find a feudal
knighthood in charge over a populace of the same origin.
Then there are the secondary realms of Jonatela and Nolos/Pasos.
Jonatela may look more medieval on first look, but on a second look it
has more in common with the dark age Germanic kingdoms in the remnants
of the Roman Empire. If any region in Glorantha could be labeled
Arthurian, then possibly this one - but the historical Arthur rather
than Mallory's anachronisms. A force of mounted troops fighting from
fortresses to protect their serfs' production against raiding
neighbours, again mostly Clibanarii in a society which was used mostly
to Orlanthi (Celt or Germanc) style of irregular footmen as fyrd levy.
Nolos and Pasos are somewhat the extension of Safelster to the seas.
They are nominally subject to the King of Tanisor, but are in fact
prospering duchies thriving on sea trade and warfare. With a somewhat
feudal, but probably quite pleasant hinterland and the main source of
income from sea trade, the knights are probably more the manorial lords
of the post-chivalrous age than the fighting class military.
A nice local colour can be found in Pithdaros where Agimori-descendants
practise their own version of chivalry, probably similar to Moorish
Spain.
> The west was the first part of Glorantha which Greg
> Stafford wrote about and I think it shows: the other parts are deeper
> and more original.
Prax is original in its conception of beast-riders, or at least I know
of no real earth society which worked like this. Probably because on
Earth it couldn't have survived. The EWF stands out because of its
draconic way of thinking. The God Learners with their large scale
experiments are unparalleled on Earth (except for a few small scale
Jesuit experiments in South America). The Lunar Empire's most
distinguishing feature is the Crater plus the unmoving moon; the rest
(as far as published by now) is mostly the generic magocratic empire,
not dissimilar from Melnibone.
Maybe you want to say: the rest of Glorantha is stranger to your own
history?
> Now this is all in my opinion and I expect flames
> from the occidentophiles, but anyway: if I want to play medieval chivalry
> I play Pendragon, not RQ/Glorantha.
If you play Pendragon, you play pure (late medieval) fantasy. If you
can tolerate non-occidental knights, stay out of Seshnela, but use the
rest of the west.
Chivalry was an utopic dream of the late medieval fighting class, to
which the high nobility played along. The Provencal knights may have
succeeded for a while, until the Catharian crusade brought the proud
Languedoc under the heel of the Languedouisse.
If you play occidental medieval types, you either have the Germanic (or
Celtic) chieftain with his fellows in arms for the dark age feudal
society (until well after Charlemagne), like among the tribal Orlanthi,
or you get the crusade age knights. I couldn't imagine Pendragonesque
Quests in Outremer, or in the motherlands of that time, except maybe in
Spain.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Vadeli
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Apr 94 17:24:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3686
Klaus O K in X-RQ-ID: 3652
> Who are these Vadeli that are often mentioned in these dailies?
> So far I have learned this:
> They are blue
No, the blue ones have vanished. Those still extant are brown (the
workers) or red (the warriors). Their islands are parts of the lost
continent between Jrustela and Brithos.
> They are nasty
Everyone says so. The only proof we have is that they introduced
themselves as gods to the humans in Jrustela and northwest Pamaltela
after the Opening (which they brought about in those parts), seizing
a good opportunity to subject the people without warfare. This was
certainly less evil than the Kingdom of War's emergence, or the Sunburn
of Erigia or the Moonburn of Rist, both genocidal.
There are rumours, however...
> They have something to do with some "missing caste"
The blue-skinned ruler caste. That they existed once is proved by te cover
of Zzabur's Blue Book, according to a rumour...
> They are immortal
and have sex, much to the chagrine of the Brithini, their ancient foes.
> They (or some of them?) are sorcerors
All of them. They are atheists, and not even Malkioni.
> Could someone tell some more about them? Where are they found?
> What are they doing? What is their culture like?
Vadeli are found in all major ports of the world, living in ghettos. Their
ancient homeland was sunk when the Spike exploded. According to Uz Lore
(Trollpak) their kingdom lay south of old Brithos, and they had a great
bridge spanning a gulf between their homeland and their colonies north of
the great dwarf kingdom. The Brown Vadeli Islands (and possible colonies
on Jrustela) were all that was known of them from the Dawning to the
Closing, when only the Brown Vadeli were found, originating from the
Vadeli Isles.
When Dormal broke the Closing, he searched for Brithos, but couldn't
find the land. Instead he encountered a fog (apparently similar to the
Fronelan Closing borders), and an archipelago unheard of before, inhabited
by Red Vadeli, the until then thought extinct warrior caste of the Vadeli.
These islands were the Red Vadeli Isles.
When Dormal opened the seas, the Vadeli took the chance and started a great
sea transport venture, combined with collonialism in northwest Pamaltela.
Until the battle of Oenriko Rock, their ships dominated all the seas north
of Pamaltela, for trade and tribute. Then their main strength was crushed
in a single naval battle, and their dominance ended. They still carry
freights between Pamaltela and Genertela's west, but their dominance as
military power has been broken.
About their culture, little is known, most of that Brithini propaganda.
Once they had three castes, distinguished by skin colour. As long as they
fulfil their caste obligations (among which there seems to be the
obligation to produce offspring), they don't age. Like the Brithini,
they don't worship (except Dormal's propitiatory ceremony to open the
seas).
Sources: Genertela Players Book, Umathela description by Greg (from
Breakout, a Down Under rpg mag), and various slander from the Daily.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: jesper.wahrner@p3.cindy.ct.se (Jesper Wahrner)
Subject: Mastakos
Message-ID:
Date: 16 Apr 94 23:46:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3687
If there is one cult in Glorantha that ought to have a mobile temple
it is Mastakos, and this one would probably be larger than a shrine,
possibly teaching more magic than what is described in GoG. I don't know
whether such a temple moves around by magical means (teleports, flies
or just rolls around on some sort of wheels) or if the cult just takes
it along as they move, but the thought appeals to me. Maybe it is
saucershaped with a large rotating movementrune on the bottom, flying
around and being spotted by innocent people who think it contains visitors
from some faraway magical place:-)
I don't think that the Mastakos cult is ONLY a subcult of Orlanth even in
Sartar, even if most people sees it as a such. There is always some people
who're appealed by even the small cults mainly those that have little or
no chanses of raising to any lofty heights in the maincults. One example
is the character I'm currently running in a friend's campaign set in Sartar.
He is a beggar/tramp who makes his livelihood of walking around and working
with about anything that needs doing in exchange for food and lodging. He
is of about as low social standing that it is possible to be and remain a
free man, and no one would even consider him as a priest of Orlanth no
matter how much magic and skills he gets. (Unless he does something really
remarkable.) Madrak Sorefeet is seriously considering joining just
Mastakos where he would have an easier time being recognised for his worth.
About chariots: A rumour that was labelled as true in an old issue of
ToTRM claimed that the only people who still use chariots is the Volsaxi.
I don't know what this was based on so maybe someone else knows something
about it?
---------------------
From: scuw5@central.sussex.ac.uk
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 16 Apr 1994, part 3
Message-ID: <4072.199404172131@solb3.central.susx.ac.uk>
Date: 17 Apr 94 23:31:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3688
Quoting MOB (from memory, so it may not be exact), "The Koran
specifically enjoins Muslims not to kill...".
Indeedy. Ditto for the Bible. I would suggest people take another
look at *the* source text on the eternal conflict between logic and
religion, Monty Python's Life of Brian".
Jon
---------------------
From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: RuneQuest-Con Wrap Up
Message-ID:
Date: 17 Apr 94 23:12:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3689
THE LONG OVERDUE RQ-CON WRAP-UP MESSAGE
Hello folks. This is the three month anniversary since RuneQuest-Con,
so I figure it's about time I send out this message to wrap up
some loose ends.
CAPSULE SUMMARY
We pulled in about 180 attendees (~160 pre-reg, 20+? walk-ons).
Contrary to my original paranoid thoughts, all costs were adequately
covered. I am also in a position to give Shannon Appel & Eric Rowe
a seed fund for RQCon2.
There has been a lot of positive talk about the con here on the Daily.
Those of you who get this in printed form will also see Gilbert Pili's
glowing review in _The Gamer_. The entire con staff and I are very
appreciative of all the kind words and commendations.
LOST AND FOUND
Found: A big black leather mug. It's got a decal (?) of a "Sea Lion"
on the side. The beast has the upper body of a Lion, and the lower
body of a fish... Somebody please help me find the owner.
Lost: How many of you are holding onto your Lunar coins? We certainly
didn't get back anywhere near the number we expected to. I appeal
to your conscience (as I stoke your guilt) to return any Lunar coins
you've still got, beyond the 1-per-person budgeted for.
Lost: One of the most expensive props from Home of the Bold is the
Official Lunar Stamp of the "Red Goddess Victorious." We never
got this back. If you have it, please return it. No questions
asked.
REFUNDS
I feel pretty guilty about not yet having gotten around to sending
refunds to those of you who've got them coming. We had a few
no-shows, and I owe some of you money for GMing. I'm currently
struggling to finish the current academic semester: these refunds
will be a top priority for me when I'm done in three weeks.
SUBMISSIONS STILL SOLICITED
. . . for the "RuneQuest-Con Compendium," or whatever we call it.
I've got stories from about five or six folks (two of which we saw
from Nick and Rich). I would really like more.
I'd also like:
* Recipies from "Eat at Geo's"
* Character diaries from _Home of the Bold_
(If you've already sent yours to David Gadbois, that's good.
He'll forward them to me)
* Photos of con attendees, especially our Guests of Honor.
Especially if they will reproduce well after being scanned.
* Tapes from any seminars you recorded.
I'd like to have this tome ready for Convulsion 94, this July.
How about trying to get me your material by the end of May - that
gives me all of June to compile and DTP the book.
Anyone who submits anything that gets published will get a free
copy of the book.
HOW CAN I GET A COPY OF THE "RUNEQUEST-CON COMPENDIUM"?
I hope to sell these starting in July, if all goes as planned.
I'm not taking summer classes, so I don't have a good excuse for
things not to go as planned...
Not only will this thing contain the things listed above, it will
also feature:
* Written transcripts of the RuneQuest-Con seminars
(Compliments of Peter Michaels and Martin Crim)
* The HotB cultural background sheets, or "bluesheets."
For those of you who haven't seen them, these are _excellent_
capsule summaries of all the cultures in Dragon Pass. There's
even some new, never-before-published stuff in here. Many thanks
to David Hall and Kevin Jacklin for letting us release these.
* Maybe some other neat stuff.
Price will depend on page count and production costs.
OTHER RUNEQUEST-CON STUFF FOR SALE
Many of you have asked, and I've put off making this formal
announcement. Yes, I have some of the con booklets for sale.
_The RuneQuest-Con Program Guide_ is 40 pages, with a great Dan Barker
original cover, "Lord Deathdrake Victorious" (to complete the
3-part montage). Inside is this neat stuff:
* Three essays on Glorantha, and the Yelmalio/Elmal schism.
1. "The Birth of Elmal: Or, 'Why I screwed up your Glorantha'",
by Greg Stafford. Not only about Elmal, but about Greg's
evolving view of Glorantha in general.
2. "The Cold Sun: Reconciling _Sun County_ and _King of Sartar_",
by Stephen Martin. Whereas Greg's essay is more conceptual,
Stephen's gets right at this confusing issue. He even cites
references.
3. "The Yelmalio/Elmal Schism", by David Hall. This gives a brief,
easily-understood explanation of the socio-political situation.
In true Gloranthan fashion, it then provides a thoroughly
entertaining myth to substantiate the claims. Allow me to
quote: "Then one day there came to Orlanth's pitiful stead a
bright and fiery messenger from the clean and well-dressed
people of the lowlands. Before he could speak Orlanth slew
him - without honour." Good stuff!
* An essay by Sandy Petersen on making your _Call of Cthulhu_
sessions spookier.
* An open letter from Professor M.A.R. Barker, talking about the
evolution of Tekumel.
* "Gaming Evangelism: Are you doing your fair share?", by me.
* A directory of 130 or so RQ-Con attendees.
* More Dan Barker artwork.
* Nice ads from our generous sponsors.
* Credits & Event Listings
This is available from me for $6 + $1 S&H (First Class mail).
I've got a little over 100 of them left. David Hall will have
a few on sale at Convulsion. MOB (MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au)
will have some for sale too, as soon as the slow boat with my
parcel arrives. Their prices may vary.
_A Rough Guide to Boldhome_ is 28 pages, with a laminated stock
cover (nice and durable). It is the supplement to _Home of the
Bold_. It too has a great Dan Barker cover. Inside is:
* An essay on Glorantha, and Dragon Pass in particular.
* Life in Boldhome - Getting around, lodging, laws, food, etc.
* A map of the city, with 51 key landmarks identified and explained.
* Personalities of Boldhome
* Some Sartarite documents, which you've seen if you've got KoS.
Please note that a lot of this stuff hasn't been published before
or since.
The _Rough Guide_ is available from me for $10 + $1.50 S&H. I've
only got about 30 of these left. Again, Hall will be selling a
precious few of these at Convulsion 94, and there are a few
on their way to MOB.
I've also got some Real Lunar Coins, used as money in HotB. These
are real metal, minted with a lead-free alloy (by Fortress Figures).
On one side is the old Empire of the Wyrm's Friends logo. The other
side has the Red Goddess riding the Crimson Bat.
These can be had for $2 + $0.50 S&H each. I'm not sure how many
I've got.
When ordering from me, money talks. To be fair (especially to
those not on the Internet), I cannot hold items for you. I will
fill requests in the order of payment received.
You can contact me at:
David Cheng
313 East 85th Street, Apt 2C
New York, NY 10028
Please do not expect any orders to be sent until the middle of
May. Catching up with and finishing schoolwork has to be my
first priority right now.
DRAGONEWT HEADS
Those of you who attended will certainly remember my embarassing
purple Dragonewt head. It was provided by a wonderful company
called Foam Domes. They had a table at the last GenCon.
The Dragon Head cost $25. They do Unicorns ($25), Viking Helms
($12), Winged Helms ($12), Knight Helms ($15-20), Knightly
Foam Armor ($30), and Crowns ($12). If you're interested, you
can write them at:
Foam Domes
9980 Rolling Oaks Court
Prior Lake, MN 55372
Be sure to tell them I sent you.
WHAT ABOUT RUNEQUEST-CON 2?
Shannon Appel (appel@erzo.berkeley.edu) and Eric Rowe
(rowe@soda.berkeley.edu) are working on it. I have given them this
email distribution list, so if you're getting this personally, you're
on their list too. Watch for news from these fine gentlemen.
That's all I can think of for now. But, knowing me, I'm sure I'll think
of a few more things soon.
* David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu cheng@io.com
(212) 472-7752 [before midnight] GEnie: D.CHENG