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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 20 Apr 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Aeolian associate initiates etc
Message-ID:
Date: 19 Apr 94 15:25:07 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3712
Alex e.g. in X-RQ-ID: 3702
> Joerg:
>> Yes, all these mythological figures which DO receive worship via other
>> cults are one of the reasons why I advocate initiation into a pantheon.
> This doesn't appear to me to be an argument in favour of pantheon worship
> as opposed to associate worship.
Associate worship is ok with me if there is one overpowering deity and
a bunch of associates, as seems to be the case with Pamalt. It fails to
work when the side cuts develop a dynamic of their own, and a character
who rightfully would worship both aspects because of his position in
the world is punished rules-wise by having to spend double amount of
time and income.
This problem is mainly one of the urban cultures. Purely rural types
living in small hamlets are well served with Orlanth the Plowman receiving
some associate magic. It would even help if the village lawspeaker would
be able to become a "more associated" initiate of Lhankor Lawkeeper.
The system breaks down in societies which demand specialisation, i.e. urban
societies.
> As a general point, I don't think it's always the case that mythologically
> important figures receive much worship. The example of Ameratsu in Japan
> springs to mind. I'm not sure how far this is true in Glorantha, apart
> from Gods which are effectively unreachable by worship.
Neither is Arachne Solara directly worshipped (her only priestess I ever
encountered in sources was Deezola).
>> Right now I help myself with the one religion - many saints concept for
>> the Aeolian church.
> Heortland isn't an area I'm very familiar with, but your ideas for the
> religion are interesting, at any rate. My own suspicion would be that
> they're not as heavily Malkionised as this: the Henotheistic Church
> doubtless has something not unlike this structure. (To wit, having
> theistic entities as Saints.)
They somewhat categorize their saints; Barntar is a divine saint, Harmast
Barefoot is a mere saint.
The wizard-priesthood also serves some of the normal cults as associate
priests. One of the PCs is an Odayla initiate, and I decided that a hunter
cult (not for nobles, his duties are to track down and hunt predators
endangering the herds, or to prepare boar-hunts for the nobility) is
unlikely to use sorcery as low magic form. Another is a recent refugee
from the Sambari pass region in Sartar who remains a regular Orlanth
(Adventurous) initiate, but who was ministered as well by the Aeolian
priesthood. Even the son of the Sun Dome Templar took part, although he
completed his Yelmalio initiation with a pilgrimage to the Sartar Sun
Dome temple to receive his gift and geasa.
All these are somehow associates of the Church.
>> I would have let him pass as an adult, but not as a full member of
>> the clan. For one thing, he wouldn't have been included in the oath of
>> allegiance ceremony to Clan and Lord after the tests, for the other thing,
>> he would have remained lay member and not Associate Initiate member
>> of the Aeolian Church.
> If I ask what an Associate Initiate is, will I end up frothing at the mouth?
Ony if you read this reply.
(I thought there were no cases of rabies in the island kingdom...)
You become associate initiate member of the church either by joining as
a youth, but not taking any patron saint/deity, with a _very_ limited choice
of low sorcery and special divine spells, or by being an intiate in one
of the theistic cults included as saints, see above. Right now I rule that
a PC has to chose between sorcery or spirit magic as his personal magic,
although I might loosen this for higher cult advancement. Since I use the
playtest rules for RQ:AiG, I'll probably increase the difficulty of the
later chosen form of magic and lower the spirit casting chance to POW*3
or so.
>> The day after the adulthood initiation the young men are members of
>> the Aeolian Church. They may have chosen a patron Saint/Deity and even
>> been tested in the appropriate skills, but they don't belong to that
>> patron's subcult until they have undergone the specific rites of this
>> cult on the appropriate holy day.
> At the risk of soundfing less dogmatic than usual, I would say this sort
> of cult structure (which is roughly what had been proposed by way of
> pantheon initiation) seems highly appropriate, for the kind of society
> and religion Joerg envisages in Heortland. But without the central
> importance of one deity, and the ancilliary status of the others, this
> structure would be (much, IMPO) less appropriate. For example, for the
> Old Time Polytheists of Sartar, say.
Hmm. The ordinary Sartarite will come from a clan which worships one or
two preferred deities of the Orlanth Array directly, and the rest as
associates. The Lismelder seem to favour Humakt alongside with Orlanth,
the Gwandor Clan of the Culbrea almost exclusively worships Humakt, the
Enhyl Clan of the Colymar seems to worship mainly Elmal, and Orlanth
only as associate, and the Vantaros and Tovtaros tribes of the
Alda-churi seem to have disposed of Orlanth as a positive figure in
their myths and have Yelmalio as their main male deity (according to my
impression from David Hall's article in the RQ-Con booklet). In all
these cases, the other deities are mere run-alongs for the majority of
the clansfolk. Unfortunately not for the clan's PCs, though...
> I still wanna know why everyone is so convinced one can't become an adult
> without becoming (some kind of) religious initiation. Readings from the
> Collected Works of He Who Is Greg, citations of convincing earthly
> parallels (specifically _not_ cases where initiation need be to one
> specific deity), or even, if the worst comes to the worst, looking up the
> RQ rules.
RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.23
"In regions where gods are worshiped, every responsible or respectable
adult will be an initiate of a religion."
RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.24
"In communities practicing religions, it is a traditional sign of
adulthood to become an initiate of the appropriate _religion_ or cult"
(emphasis mine).
KoS p.239
"Children become adults after a formal initiation ceremony"
This is to the Clan Secrets, including one's ancestors, and _is_
religious in nature, although not necessarily cultic.
KoS p.245
"Initiates in any cult of the pantheon are the next level. This
includes almost every Orlanthi adult."
So there seem to be a few non-initiate Orlanthi adults. Kolating
shamans and their followers, for instance.
KoS p.251
"He [the chieftain] must be initiated to the clan secrets of Orlanth"
as the basest requirement for chieftainhood.
>> A Voriof initiate would be a boy who
>> has reached the age of school-boy, and is receiving tasks vital to the
>> community, although not difficult, like keeping the sheep.
> While I'm not going to contend one _has_ to be a shephard in order to
> worship Voriof, I believe the vast majority of his worshippers are, at
> least on an occasional basis. I dislike the idea of Voriof simply being
> a `generic stage' deity: I'm sure he has a distinct cult of his own. After
> all, Voria does, albeit a non-standard and wimpy one.
I agree with this. There surely are a lot of Cottar adult initiates of
Voriof in his shepherd aspect. There might be as well an aspect
"Orlanth the Youth", possibly closely linked to the Yinkin cult, but
that's not documented anywhere, so I chose "Voriof" to describe the
boys who had their communion but not their initiation.
>> This stage of
>> Low initiation is not restricted to one deity only, though, and a
>> crafter's proto-apprentice would be considered a "Voriof initiate" as
>> expression of his age group in the pantheon, even if already an advanced
>> lay member of Gustbran.
> I disagree, vehemently, vociferously, and I've-gone-over-my-reasons-for-
> doing-so-ly.
Why?
How many sheep do you expect to be kept within a town of little over
200 houses, say the size of Runegate, or Jaransbyrig (my campaign
setting)?
Jaransbyrig has about two dozen farmer-citizens who till the fields
outside the wall (actually a reinforced dike with a low palisade on
top) and are likely to keep sheep. The other people living in the town
may have some husbandry of their own, but they are unlikely to keep
sheep inside the town, not even in winter. A cow for milk for the more
prosperous citizens, a sow or two fed on the scraps from the masters'
table, and some fowl (Orlanthi are fond of eating eggs, remember?). Do
all the other town boys need another deity? Jaransbyrig is too small to
have its own city god, so this option as low initiation status remains
out. Voriof seems to be the logical solution, even if it leads to the
situation descrbed above.
> If I ever call Sandy a Nysalor-loving,
> fragment of Rakenveg's toenail fellow-traveller of the Predark, you can be
> sure it's necessary in the context of the discussion.
This is an illustrative example of a derisive address. Maybe we ought
to collect some more of these colourful insults, for the common good?
Curtis Shenton in X-RQ-ID: 3694
> Has anyone ever run a campaign set in other than the Thrid Age in
> Glorantha? Glorantha history is so rich it it could be the basis of
> endless campaigns set in different periods. Personally my first two non
> third age ideas are both in the second age.
I would love to run a series of EWF era scenarios, if only to provide
my Third Age campaign with locations where to dig for non-generic
artifacts.
> I'd love to run or play in a campaign based on the Gbaji wars.
That's First Age.
> But with the players all starting out as Illuminates within Nysalor's
> empire. Start the characters in Dorastor, which from my reading seems to
> have been a pretty nice place to live before Arkat shows up, right about
> the time Arkat gets started. So they hear news which presents Arkat as
> evil incarnate marching their way. Assuming you've got a group of good
> roleplayers dealing with the philosophical aspects to Illumination and
> with the idea that Arkat might be right would be alot of fun to play.
Especially if they travel through Dragon Pass, Kethaela and Slontos to
meet this guy. They might even accompany him on the way back and watch
in horror how he becomes more and more the evil he fights.
> The other campaign I'd like to try is a group of Godlearners.
[...]
> Plus to really drive the point home of just what sort of damage the
> godlearners did I'd make some large scale changes in the world that the
> PCs would be confused by. Like having a White Sun/Moon in the sky all
> the time, or Yalmol the god who stole Zorak Zoran's Darkness powers in
> the Godtime.
This reminds me of a question I have concerning moons in/over
Glorantha: in what way are they different from planets? The reason I
ask is that I have seen a source which titles the Southpath planets
Tolat and Artia (or at least similar-sounding names) as moons. Third
Age Glorantha offers two moons with virtually nothing in common which
tells them apart from planets.
Or are moons stellar bodies destined to end as plateaus on the surface
of the earth?
While I'm stargazing: In GRoY Dendara is mentioned as a planetary
deity, along with the various sons of Yelm and other worthies (like
Lokarnos). Does Yelm draw a whole bunch of minor planets along on his
path across the sky, obscured by his fiery presence?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: gkca16@udcf.gla.ac.uk (S.Phillips)
Subject: Thanes, Nags, Innocents and Fools.
Message-ID: <12697.199404180924@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 18 Apr 94 11:24:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3697
Hi from Sam Phillips!
---------------------
Yep. I'm still around listening in when I can. My Sartar campaign coming on splendidly.
My brave Orlanthis due to be finally initiated very soon. If only then can steal back their
horses and ride home..
DDUNHAM pondered
----------------
>Another linguistic problem: the word "thane." In Pagan Shore, thane is
>essentially a clan chieftain. In the Orlanth writeup in Heroes I.4, anyone
>in the Orlanth Rex subcult (which includes tribal council members on
>council business) is called thane. But in King of Sartar, the rank is
>broadly defined to any sort of leadership role: heads of household, godi,
>leading merchants, and members of the clan council [243] (does this mean
>the Trickster member is automatically a thane?). And it's listed as an
>occupation [246].
>And of course there's Elmal the Loyal Thane, obviously this third meaning.
>So Greg not only Gregged Yelmalio, he Gregged Orlanth Rex.
>Has anyone dealt with this in their Orlanthi campaigns?
In my Orlanthi campaign I have gone for all of these. ie the title "Thane" is
both an official title and at the same time a term of reverence. I would suspect
for instance that a one time Thane who no longer "officially" deserves the title
would continue to be called by it as long as they commanded a certain respect. ie
they weren't thrown of the council for wrong-doings.
Similarly a rich and successful Orlanthi may well be referred to as (or mistakingly
assumed to be) a Thane even if they do not hold an official position. Often, I
suspect it would also be a good way to butter someone up eg:-
"Surely a great *Thane*, such as yourself, can recognise a fine beast - a healthy
riding animal.... Only one Ernaldan owner!.."
"How much? for a pair of riding boots? But *Thane* I am a poor man, unlike yourself.
surely a man of your standing can afford a *little* kindness to those less blessed
by the Gods.."
etc
Similarly, Branbrig the fool - In hiding, on all but the most official holy days
for fear that the cold hearted women folk (who greatly outnumber the men in our
clan and do not share the male passion for a 'good' joke) will do away with him
at the first opportunity, *is officially* a Thane. But as, even before he went
into hiding, he was normally drunk in a gutter or causing great offence about the
place he would only ever be begrudgingly called "Thane" on the most formal of
occasions and *probably only* by men. An example was in one of our recent scenarios
when Branbrig was neccessary to perform an important heroquest with the eldest
children of the clan. (Sort of the *daft* leading the *dafter* or visa versa ;-)
After a successful quest, Branbrig (still dressed as a wet-nurse, complete with leather
false breasts) sat breifly at the head table with the other Thanes for the celebration
dinner. He sculked off before any harm could befall him.
Cheers! Sam x
Not Scotland but Sartar.
---------------------
From: WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis)
Subject: Re: Malkioni rule
Message-ID: <01HBBC3L4E8Y004DAE@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU>
Date: 18 Apr 94 04:00:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3698
Thanks for the comments. After my delay, this topic may be dead already,
but...
Sandy, Sen of Peter replies:
>>In general, I find the western civilizations to be much more
>>difficult to use for a game setting than good old barbarian
>>settings.
>
> I find this to be a very interesting comment, especially
>since AD&D(TM), Pendragon, and most trash fantasy books almost
>exclusively use this type of setting. Not that I disagree with Ed's
>comment, but look at Safelster -- it's the classic Fantasy Setting,
...
>>We had two Malkioni soldiers playing once and no one could tell them
>>apart
> As you say, a failure in roleplaying. I'd like to point out
>that anyone who can tell two different Orlanthi warriors apart should
>be able to make two different Malkioni soldiers without much trouble.
I should admit that I do not play these games, and my favorite
campaign was RQ vikings. So personal preference is playing a large
part here. But I still look at the options available to Orlanthi
compared to Malkioni. There are seven or more "personas" to choose
to emulate in the society. Each has rich myths and varying levels of
accomplishment. Orlanthi PCs are usually from any of these cults. Malkioni
PCs are from a max of 4 types, and the Invisible God never did or does
anything until you are dead. What a role model!
>>In earth's middle ages Europe wealthy merchants would purchase
>>nobility and priesthoods. Does this happen in Glorantha's west?
>
> I can't imagine it doesn't. Hmm. Confusing double negative
>there. Let's rephrase that. Of course!
>
>>does a growing wealthy middle class threaten the nobility in
>>Glorantha?
>
> Why not? A shortage of wizards, or excess of soldiers, or
I guess my complaint here would get down to the lack of published
material. These two items are not in the published materials so they have
to be made up (i.e. more work). There are few mentions of social upheavals
in the western cultures, and the overall impression I get is that society is
stable (social structures, not political). Fuel for social conflict is
heaped upon every Orlanthi chapter. But then, there are more
Orlanthi chapters so maybe just that is the problem.
The other things Sandy says are sound replies to my complaints so I
have no response to them. Violent retort maybe, but no response.
>From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
>
Lewis says:
>
> Remember that there are quite a few different Malkioni Churches.
>1) They ALL regard the others as heratics of various degrees.
> Remember the reponse of the Medieval Church to heratics (burn them)!
>2) A few of the herasies allow Tapping... These are realy BAD GUYs.
>3) If you need a realy Horrible opponent try an unaligned sorceror or
> God forbid a Vampire.
Yes, but here is my gripe about Malkioni sects. Some comparisons:
YELMALIAN FARMER: Why are trolls evil?
YELMALIO PRIEST: Because their god beat up our god and stole our
god's fire powers! You can see this every time some trolls use
magical fire to fight us.
ORLANTHI FARMER: Why is the Red Goddess evil?
ORLANTH PRIEST: Because she threatens to take control of the middle
air, the domain our god should rightfully rule. You can see this
every time you look up in the sky!
MALKIONI PEASANT: Why are the Galvosti evil?
MALKIONI WIZARD: Their wizards tap non-Malkioni. These wizards make
up less than 5% of population, you probably will never meet one, and
they don't really tap our people, but they are EVIL! PURE EVIL!
What do we know about these heresies? Their descriptions are ho-hum.
Their differences seem to revolve around a single spell (tap) that
not only the average person will not know, but probably only the more
powerful wizards will. Maybe I just have trouble relating to a
society model that would do things like burn down the Jewish quarter
for the shaky reasoning that they killed Christ.
The only real interesting heresy is the Stygian heresy which is
described like all the rest in a paragraph here and there.
Again, my gripe might just be lack of material. But that is why I
am anxious to see in the TOTRM Malkioni issue. Just two issues off
so that would put its arrival date in June, 1999. :-)
Ed YOYO
Wallman@vax2.winona.msus.edu Yelmalio's favorite toy