From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 23 Apr 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sartarite Elmali and Yelmalians
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Apr 94 11:04:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3763
John Hughes in X-RQ-ID: 3753
> YELMALIO/ELMAL - CHAOS BOOTLICKING LUNAR PROPAGANDA
> Someone said...
> * ...the Vantaros and Tovtaros tribes of the
> * Alda-churi seem to have disposed of Orlanth as a positive figure in
> * their myths and have Yelmalio as their main male deity (according to my
> * impression from David Hall's article in the RQ-Con booklet).
I plead guilty.
> Over to Tarful Thunderstone, an old Tovtaros acquaintance from
> Ironspike...
> 'Just who is this Glowric Truthsayer anyway? And just which of
> those stickpicking Lunar sons of lame trolls and desperate broo do
> you think he works for? I'd like to show him the pointy end of
> my argument, I would. That one Divad Llah too. The shame. Lies!
> Proper geese, that's all it is.
Doubtless one of Orlanth Thunderous.
> Underneath it all, most of them are still Orlanthi, 'cept its illegal,
> so we keep it quiet. In our hearts, but we remember everytime
> we breathe. The Righteous Wind - that bit's true too - but it was
> about Lunars, nothing to do with the sun. Least not that I heard...
Orlanthi in the sense of Orlanth worshippers? Wishful thinking...
> 'Those Vantaros, they're good Orlanthi, just like us! Especially the
> dead ones. In their hearts and in their breath. 'Cept for the ones
> that aren't. I never met me a Yelmalio, 'cept them that hide in the
> city 'neath the Goddess' skirts. Good Elmal stock we are.
Now what? Elmal or Orlanth?
I think it makes a great difference whether clan allegiance is to
Orlanth or the Cold Sun god, whatever his name. An Elmal Clan is likely
to have less "democratic" (in an Iceland Thing or Heortling style)
structure than a Orlanth clan. This might in part reflect that Solars
are conservative, so Elmali might retain the Vingkotling clan rulership,
of which we know little, but which may have been more despotic than the
Heortling ring - after all, back then Orlanth himself was at home and
had the last word on everything (even if only a soft "Yes, Ernalda dear"),
and when he left for the LBQ, Elmal took over.
Opinions?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Tien
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Apr 94 12:10:30 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3764
Jim DeGon in X-RQ-ID: 3738
> Who killed Tien?
> Was it Hrothmir, son of Storm Bull or was it the Black Sun?
Hrothmir, as far as I'm concerned.
> It seems that there are two versions of the story of Tien's
> severing and the defeat of his chaos army after they devoured Genert.
The Back Sun army dismembered Tien, but did not necessarly kill him.
Orlanth was dismembered at Stormfall (into 48 pieces), and Humakt cut in
half. Both continued to act in Godtime.
> Also, why would either of these forces be stronger than Genert and his
> followers?
Genert tried to gather a host of well-meaning people to counter chaos.
they wouldn't have won against Vadrus and his host either, because in
their hearts they were artists and aesthetics, not warriors.
The trolls profited from Boztakangs victory over Arrquong, and Storm Bull
had destruction and rage as his weapons. Both these forces could weaken
chaos, but both would weaken the world as well. Storm Bull alone would
have perished against the devil, only with the help of the well-meaning
(through Eiritha) did he find the power to summon the Block. And look
what happened to the land...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Legalities
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Apr 94 12:11:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3765
David Dunham on Outlaw Tricksters in X-RQ-ID: 3737
> Jonas said
>> The bit about their outlaw
>> status often seems to be a mere formality (if actions against you can't be
>> punished, this makes your own 'immunity' pretty pointless).
> I think the important thing about Tricksters being outlaws is not so much
> the Trickster but his clan being protected/prevented. Normally, if I kill
> someone, my whole clan is subject to blood vengeance (at least in Iceland
> this often happened -- after all, I'm a killer, so you probably don't want
> to mess with me, you'll kill my brother to get vengeance for your brother).
> On the other hand, if you do kill me, my clan can take vengeance against
> you.
At least it takes the legal pretense from such a murder, and akes the
perpretator an outlaw himself.
> Since a Trickster is an outlaw, he can do anything he wants without getting
> his clan involved. On the other hand, when he gets into trouble, they have
> no legal right to bail him out or take vengeance.
Which hasn't hindered any to do so if they thought worth it, for whatever
reason.
Loren J. Miller in X-RQ-ID: 3744
> Martin Crim writes:
>> Seriously, though, having the fuzz arrive is an anachronism,
>> and anachronisms really irk me in RPGs and fantasy fiction.
> I agree. The only worse anachronism I've seen in RQ games is the
> war-on-some-drugs. I always felt that the "cops and jails and fair
> trials oh my" model of legal systems was WRONG for most fantasy
> campaigns, but at the same time had trouble coming up with an
> alternate legal system that would be effective in maintaining some
> modicum of order in the face of player character rough-housing.
Since 1611, Pavis is under martial law. Any troublemaking would result
in both sides' punishment, evidence only influencing the amount of
punishment. (The victim would have to pay a fee, call it patrol involvement
tax if you want.)
Cities are the only places where any legal system would need to be
worked out, most other societies would have either a version of feudal
jurisdiction (including the Praxian tribes), or some version of folkmoot
or thing where selected people not directly involved decide on the case.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Malkioni
Message-ID:
Date: 22 Apr 94 12:13:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3766
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 3745
> David Cake writes:
>> Part of the problem most people have with Malkioni is that they are
>> seen as analogous to the Church in Mediaeval Europe, their religion is seen as
>> more like current Earthly religious practices, and thus seen as basically less
> I tend (nowadays) to see them as MUCH more like the ancient schools of
> philosophy, which nearly took off into being 'religions'. The sort of thing
> the Malkioni think about seems to be more like the classical philosophers'
> subjects than Christian ones.
> I am waiting for some feedback on this before spending a lot of
> time developing the schools, but I think this is the way to go. The
> Brithini, for example, are caricature Epicureans. The Neoplatonists
> even use the term 'Invisible God'. Etc.
What little I know about Ancient Greek philosophy, I used in my
non-Gloranthan campaign as one of the sources of sorcerers. They are even
more likely to organize along "colleges" than either Christian or Muslim
parallels for the Malkioni.
But then the classical philosophies went heavily into both Christian and
Muslim doctrine. As a third Real World input to incorporate into our
picture of Malkioni religion this surely seems valid.
My thoughts on the Kingdom of Logic were about the same as about the
Pythagoreans, with numerical derivations, and all. Since this is one of
the two original sources of Malkionism (the other being the revelations
of the prophet), the parallel seems to be more than valid, at least if
you look at the clergy. To the ordinary farmer, the medieval church still
stays a good approximation.
> Comments on individual points of David's:
>> For example the Galvosti allow the Tapping of
>> non-Malkioni - but why? Perhaps they believe that non-Malkioni are not human?
> Umm... do other Malkioni allow the tapping of non-Humans? I think the
> Sedalpists do, but the 'mainstream' Genertelan churches of Rokar and
> Hrestol don't.
IMO the discussion about tapping fails to get to the root of the sect
differences. Tapping seems to have been declared anathema on some early
synode, and this has been interpreted differently in certain sects.
Other features to distinguish the greater sects (Hrestoli, Rokari,
"Stygians") have greater importance, IMO. Tapping is used to distinguish
Malkioni from the other sorcerous cultures, mainly Brithini and Vadeli.
Ed Wallman in X-RQ-ID: 3746
> I griped:
[...]
> Joerg replys:
[...]
> I'll respond because of the lame comment ;-). I gave two concrete examples
> (Yelmalio vs. Uz and Orlanthi vs. Lunar) of how Gloranthan religions almost
> always have vivid (and sometimes even visible) mythological reasons for
> being enemies. I still say Malkioni sects pale in comparison.
> Your Orlanthi vs. Illumination example is true, but since all Red Moon
> worshippers are illuminated, the proof for the Storm Voice's argument
> against illuminates is hanging in the sky (where only Orlanth should be).
The Red Moon worshippers in this sense make up perhaps 1% of the Lunar
Heartlands' populace, and perhaps half of the Lunar Empire's illuminates,
although I suspect a quite high percentage of upper Dara Happan ranks to
be illuminated without being Lunar in religion.
> Your Rokari vs. Hrestoli example is a good example of how the Malkioni sect
> conflicts are based on words. I would give a less than enthusiastic
> response to a sermon on my "station in life". Who was it that suggested
> monotheism is a scam? Maybe I should join their sect.
I should have chosen Hrestoli against Kingdom of War, or Rokari against
Luathan, to parallel your examples - that's about as much as Lunars and
Orlanthi (for the first), or Yelmalians and trolls (for the second)
have in common.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: s.manning@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Malkionism
Message-ID: <9404221313.AA26197@tera>
Date: 22 Apr 94 15:13:16 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3767
Bryan J. Maloney writes:
>"There is no God but the Invisible God, and Malkion is is prophet."
>
>
>Gee, that sounds more like a monotheistic religion OTHER than Christianity,
>doesn't it?
Well, to me it sounds a lot like Islam, as Christianity has all those
complicated creeds.
Simon.
---------------------
From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Cops and Robber Barons
Message-ID: <01HBGWQ6G2OG9GXC0T@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 22 Apr 94 06:34:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3768
> Seriously, though, having the fuzz arrive is an anachronism,
> and anachronisms really irk me in RPGs and fantasy fiction.
I agree, but only partly, Martin. It would irk me to find that every
city or town had an organized (and possibly full-time) policing force
of some sort. But I think the original point was that the PCs can't
run about killing people, sometimes even if there is a reason. If
someone hears a village/town resident crying for help when the PCs
are laying waste to him, the villagers are going to gang up on the
PCs. Should the PCs escape, the villagers may well hunt them down.
(Of course, the hapless 'victim' was an ogre who was munching on some
child's body, but who ya gonna believe?) Essentially: if you knock
someone off, somebody's likely to be pissed.
I certainly wouldn't include a police force or a regular watch in any
but the largest communities (one wherein the lord resides). (I
admit, I like the idea of having them run out of a pastry shop. :)
In those larger communities, the 'police' would basically be the
lord's men-at-arms, keeping the peace in the interests of the lord's
naptime or such. This would require a fairly large, organized
community (it could happen this way in Sun County, frex).
Scott
---------------------
From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Sassenach Elves and their Divine Arses
Message-ID: <01HBGXIQZMIO9I5N8U@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 22 Apr 94 06:58:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3769
>> Everything Aldryami do is religious in nature, or at least they
>> do not recognize the human distinction between the
>> mundane/profane and the divine.
>I don't believe this is true, at least in the sense that they appear
>to engage in both in behaviour which is `mundane' (has some prosaic
>purpose evident even to ignorant humans), and that which is `ritual'
>(doesn't). They may not see this as an interesting or significant
>distinction from their point of view, though.
There may not be a difference between the mundane and the divine. :)
Look at the zen tea ceremony, which consists of
pouring tea in a cup
drinking it
Scott
(not in Scotland, but will be wearing a kilt at his wedding in
September)
---------------------
From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Glorantha and RuneQuest versus Real-World Politics (*Appeal*)
Message-ID: <9404221411.AA25677@MIT.EDU>
Date: 22 Apr 94 05:12:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3770
Greetings!
Some of the discussions recently in the Daily have taken on a
decided real world political twist. It is a wonderful thing that people
from so many diverse political and national backgrounds can converse
about areas of mutual fantasy interest, namely Glorantha and RuneQuest.
Let us not spoil this by getting in heated debates about the
nature of real world heartfelt beliefs whether those beliefs be
religious or political. People and organizations are not perfect, and
they will make mistakes. People stop being objective when you talk
about some things. For my part, I have seen enough hurt feelings in the
Daily lately.
Please, before you send out a flame or an ``observation'' about
something real world that you know is controversial, take a few deep
breaths and file it in your ``hold'' file folder and sleep on it. It
might not seem like such a great idea to send it out after a good
night's sleep.
The one thing that really impressed me most about RQ-CON was the
good natured attitude of the crowd. Everyone I met seemed kind and
considerate, really a decent person. It would be nice to keep that kind
of an atmosphere on the net too.
Thank you,
Rich Staats
---------------------
From: JF18974@academia.swt.edu
Subject: Trolls, Songs
Message-ID: <01HBH1IU5NSI99GG07@academia.swt.edu>
Date: 22 Apr 94 05:06:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3771
Hi all,
First, forgive me for not being able to put all the quotes in cute
little carots. I'm too lazy to mess with my screwy mail editor, so I'll
paraphrase.
Alex responds to Sandy's response to my response to somebody's
(Mike Dawson, I think...) statement about Troll cruelty. I never argued
that trolls didn't like to eat sentient flesh. Obviously they do. Aldryami
and Mostali in particular. However, Trollpak does state (for whatever reason)
that they usually will not kill other sentient beings for food. I don't recall
if a reason is given for this. I always assumed that they just didn't like the
taste, and therefore would only eat humans if nothing better was around. I can't imagine that a troll would be morally squeamish about killing a human for
food when they are quite willing to kill a dwarf to eat. I doubt that
trolls find dwarves or elves easier to kill than humans.
Another possibility is that Uz just don't want to tick off humans.
They're already immortal enemies of the Aldryami and Mostali, why add another
race? I don't think this is a major consideration, though, as most humans
probably don't trust trolls anyway. This is probably only the case in
areas of heavy troll-human interaction, such as Adari.
My main point, however, was about Trolls eating their own children.
Sandy argued that the fact that this was outlawed by the cult of KL meant
that it was a possibility. Good point, but I always viewed Trollpak as
written by humans for humans about trolls. The average human might not realize
that trolls don't eat their children. After all, they eat just about everythingelse, including trollkin (who aren't "children" in the cultural sense, biology
notwithstanding). I imagine that a troll would not have to be told that he
can't eat his dark troll children. Why should he want to? With the curse of
the kin, a dark troll child is very valuable, and besides, a troll shouldn't
have any trouble finding something else to eat.
Still, this is all open to interpretation. My copy of Trollpak is
out on loan, so I have to argue my point from memory. Any other ideas?
By the way, I was interested in seeing the source for "Cold Wind
Over Sartar". The first time I saw the name, I thought of Jethro Tull's
"Cold Wind to Valhalla", which has a very cool acoustic opening. Ian
Anderson uses the same motif in the song "Salamander", though that sounds
abit Fire/Sky-ish. Makes you wonder where Tull's loyalties lie...
Ciao,
JIM FLAMMANG
---------------------
From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: All gods are one god?
Message-ID: <9404221804.AA06596@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 22 Apr 94 08:04:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3772
I must take the person who stated that the worship of all storm gods
is really just the worship of Orlanth or Umath. This is preposterous
nonsense. Tell me this:
Is the worship of Zeus identical to the worship of Tiwaz?
Is the worship of Jupiter identical to the non-worship of Dyaus?
You are basically claiming that all deities of a particular aspect are
just one deity. This is obviously a God-Learner lie! You might as well
say that Aldrya and Ernalda are the same goddess. You might as well say
that Bolongo and Eurmal are the same god. You might as well say that
Yanafal Tarnils and Humakt are the same god!
Let me put it another way: I seriously doubt that Indra and Zeus are really
"just the same god" simply because they share aspects as lords of storm and
sky and King of Gods. Why should this be any different in Glorantha.
Now, I will grant that it is highly likely that the Godlearners were beginning
to fuse various deities together into a single being, and it would have been
easier to first conglomerate those of similar aspects.
However, you might as well say that Orlanth is really Yelm and both are really
the Red Goddess who is really Kigor Lytor.
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: The Fuzz
Message-ID: <9404222157.AA01169@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 22 Apr 94 21:57:35 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3773
Paul Reilly, replying to Martin Crim:
> Seriously, though, having the fuzz arrive is an anachronism,
> and anachronisms really irk me in RPGs and fantasy fiction.
Umm... the Romans had officers more like modern police than you might
imagine. Along with many other armed types with no strict modern
counterpart. A 'fuzz arriving' scene in First Cen. BC Rome (say Late
Republican) could involve aediles, curule aediles, tribunes, private
bodyguards of senators and/or wealthy citizens, etc. I should
go back and read Martin's original post - I do object to gratuitous
anachronisms, but the ancients were pretty sophisticated in a lot
of ways that don't seem to be well known nowadays.
Not just Rome, either. Greek city-states had superintendents of markets
whose duties included suppression of theft. The Persians had officers
to suppress crime. Etc., etc.
Loren writes:
>I agree. The only worse anachronism I've seen in RQ games is the
>war-on-some-drugs.
Now there is one that IS irksome - it's clearly drawn from modern
Western society, particularly the US. While many societies have restricted
intoxicants, etc., the 'flavor' of the Hazia prohibitions, etc. seems
peculiarly modern... unlike for example the references to Black Lotus
Dust, which is clearly Darkness related and thus the Dara Happans have
a good reason to suppress it. (Or is that from my campaign? Sometimes I
forget...)
Martin continues:
> "the watch" ought to stop fires and riots; the way to deal with
> an on-going crime (in areas analogous to Europe) is to raise the
> hue and cry, after which all able-bodied men are legally required
> to aid in apprehending the criminal and bringing him to the
> sheriff; prisons were rare in the ancient world, and justice
> swift (shoot, Delaware was caning people into the 20th century
Uhh... this sounds alot more medieval than ancient, if you don't mind
my saying so. Roman court procedure resembled modern court procedure in
many ways (perhaps esp. in Germany? Joerg?). There is a good reason
for this - we inherited the foundations of our legal system (well,
some of us) from the Romans. In England and thus the US, this blended with
the Anglo-Saxon common law to produce a strange mongrel.
All for now,
Paul