Bell Digest v940426p2

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 26 Apr 1994, part 2
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From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Initiation
Message-ID: <01HBL6UM5OCI8WWP4D@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 25 Apr 94 05:21:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3802

alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk writes:
> Not quite.  Rather, some of us are unconvincded that clan initiation and
> religious initiation are either: the same thing; or: a job lot.

In _The Sacred and the Profane_ (and lots of his other works) Mircea
Eliade goes on at great length about "religious man" and how, for much
of human history and pre-history, humans perceived society and the
social rules as sacred duties prescribed by the gods back in the first
days of the world. Society itself was sacred and any progress in
society, any initiation, was religious in nature.

I think this is true, but more importantly I am 99.999% certain that
it's true for Glorantha. The pattern for society was created by the
gods. Orlanthi attempt to live in the same relations as Orlanth and
his friends, thanes and women. Malkioni attempt to live in the same
relations as Malkion and his children. Lunars attempt to live in the
same relations as the Red Goddess and her friends and children (the
fact that we know almost nothing about this pattern is inexcusable).
Now who is going to say "this initiation is to your culture, but that
one is to your religion"? They're both sacred. They're both the
product of the gods. Any differentiation is artificial.

This is why I think that RQ/Glorantha needs to acknowledge the role of
the culture/religion in initiation in addition to the individual cult.
I still haven't seen acceptable rules proposals to do this, but I
remain hopeful that it's possible and convinced that it is a good
idea.


whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller            internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work."        -- Ross Perot sound bite

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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Wizzing.
Message-ID: <9404251431.AA20933@hawaii.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 25 Apr 94 14:31:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3803

Simon Manning:
> Alex Finally writes in X-RQ-ID: 3588

Give me Strength. ;-)

> I am sure that the
> Lunars are seen as the biggest group of heretics known to the Malkioni, even
> more so than your neighbours!.

Just how upset are you likely to get at heretics 2000 miles away, across
impassable terrain, at Late Dark Age movement rates, when all you know about
the finer points of their theology has been filtered through any number
of intervening unwashed barbarians?  The Seshnegi (say) have enough things to
worry about as things stand, I think.

> Without wishing to push the analogy too far, if
> the Malkioni heresies are analogous to the Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant/...
> split, then the Malkioni/Lunar split I see as akin to medieval
> Christianity/Islam.

But it isn't a `split' at all: the two evolved quite separately.  This is
convergent evolution, not divergence.  The Lunar spoutings about the Creator
are clearly intended to make Lunar thinking more acceptable to Malkioni, not
less, while of course seeking to absorb or supplant such beliefs.

Clearly no Malkioni sect is mad keen on _any_ bunch of pagans; but on the
other hand, why should they be more upset at pagans who acknowledge the
truth of their own beliefs (broadly) [the Lunars], than ones who think they
are completely deluded?  [The Orlanthi, and most other theists]

> While I am on the issue of the RG and the Creator, and having just received my

> copy of GRoY, does she claim to have knowledge of Vezkarvez?

Depends whom you ask, I suspect.  And who's doing the asking, come to that.
"Whatever you say, Mr Sun Lord, sir."  Probably "Yes" on the whole.  But
the Lunars have a pretty flexible approach in their attitude to other faiths,
so long as they aren't wholely compatible.

> If so, how do the
> Solar cultists of the Empire view her claims to such knowledge?

Variously as a deep, affirming spiritual insight, and as ample reason to
pile some more Lunar Blasphemers on the Fire come the Dara Happan revolution.

Sandy uses uncharacteristic verb phrases:
> Pam Carlson sensibly comments:
> >It strikes me that people mainly fear sorcerers  because they
> >represent frightening power with no discernable alliegence or
> >control.

>       I think this is very true, especially for theists. Also let's
> consider that the average sorcerers found living near theists are the
> rejects and outcasts of the Malkioni community. Wizards who are
> integrated into society aren't out in the hinterlands lurking in
> spooky Dark Towers.

If a theist met an "integrated" Wizard, he would still regard him highly
suspiciously, though.  Not just because of the bad rep of his renegage
pals, but also because he would have no prima facia guarantee even that
he obeys the commandments of the Invisible God.  With a theist priest,
one at least (generally) knows where they stand, as it were: if they
were hopelessly apostate or heretical, they wouldn't be able to perform
their duties, or produce effective magic.

Alex.

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From: sschne00@reach.com (Scott Schneider -- HRA - Chicago)
Subject: response in the RQ Digest
Message-ID: <9404251436.AA24923@ad0.reach.com>
Date: 25 Apr 94 14:36:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3804

Additional recipients:
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To:                                              
    runequest@glorantha.holland.sun.com          


This is my first of many comments in the digest, so I hope that i 
get the rules of the game just right. I'm also new to BBs

1) from joerg baumgartner # 3764. Subject: Tien

Lies!!  Damned Lies!! As any good BeastRider from the True 
Wastelands knows, the great Bull of the Storm didn't need to call 
upon anyone to help Him defeat the Devil. He made the ultimate 
sacrifice, and tore out His own heart to smash the vilesome Devil 
into Pulp. His having to call upon his wife's strength and this 
thing called the Block are just the rantings and ravings of Storm 
Bull's Little Brother, whom Storm Bull had to rescue from the 
bowels of Eiritha whem Little Brother got lost looking for the 
Bright Treasure with his six boon companions.  (I'm co-authoring 
Beastriders of the Wastelands (Prax Pack) with Sandy Petersen, and 
just wanted to set the record straight from All of Little 
Brother's whinings and tricks.

2)  An incident of Pavis. In the Pavis histories, there is related 
the story of how a nomad warrior snuck into the Rubble and was 
lost to the trolls. For several years thereafter, no khan of Prax 
was able to have children, until a one-armed woman from Tourney 
Altar rescued the armed corpse. Here is the true story of what 
happened, worked out several years ago w/ Greg Stafford's 
contribution.

The warrior went on a quest into the Rubble, with the aim of 
stealing, as usual, some arcane bit of troll. magic. In order to 
strengthen himself, he went around to all the Praxian khans, 
gaining the support and the support of the various clans. This 
effectively linked their fate w/ his, and his fate w/ them. 
Unfortunately for the warrior, and thus the khans, he was captured 
by the trolls, also alerted to this hero-level quest, who tortured 
him and ATE HIS BALLS IN FROM OF HIM, THIS DEPRIVING HIM (AND THE 
KHANS) OF HIS VIRILITY. They then ate the rest of teh body, and 
confined the warrior's soul to one of the trolls' spiritof 
retribution. 

For the next several years, many attempts were made by the 
Praxians to recover the severed parts of teh warrior, both 
physically and spritually, BUT ALL ATTEMPTS FAiled miserably.
Finally, a one-armed old woman from the Tourney ALtar, approached 
each of teh affected khans, and berated, humiliated and shamed 
them by saying:  Each of you is a ball-=less, shitless, IMPOTENT, 
worthless person. ALL of are women are starved for Love because of 
your pledges, and none of you even have the BALLS to satisfy us 
anymore. "  

With that, she got together the most nubile, horny, warrior women 
(including those of the Morocanth), snuck over the walls of the 
Rubble one day when the trolls were less active, and tracked down 
every physical and spiritual essense of the dead warrior, even 
those parts consumed by various trolls. In the final act to 
restore the situation, the dead warrior was reassembled, each of 
the women took turns mounting him, and thus the Impotence Curse of 
the khans was broken. Many children were born  the following year.



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From: C442196@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu (Newton Hughes)
Subject: humakti
Message-ID: <9404251501.AA25565@Sun.COM>
Date: 25 Apr 94 14:39:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3805

Steven Sharp provoked some interesting rationalizations of why Humakti
are tested in the Conceal skill.  What Conceal actually consists of
is not clear to me, it is about the least well-defined skill in the list.

Another interesting weirdness about Humakti is that Ride is one of
the skills for Swords.  This is the same cult that in RQ2 had the geas,
"Ride no animals."

I think Berserk should be the property of a bodyguard subcult, not
for the usual rank and file.  We've been through this one before, though.


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From: cabanc@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU
Subject: RQ:PBEM
Message-ID: <0097D7AD.B3AC8C3C.250@WKUVX1.WKU.EDU>
Date: 25 Apr 94 14:24:12 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3806

	I don't have any classes this summer and think I would like to
run a Runequest campaign.
	My rules:
	2nd or 3rd Edition (has the fighter in armor using a shield on
a monster)
	no sorcery (never understood it)
	Heavy emphasis on role-palying.

	No my question is, if people are interested what would they
like?
	Any suggestions please E-mail them.
	Cults, skills (groveling is a skill), weapons, place of
campaign (I know where I want it to be, but it may not jive with what
everybody is ). 
	Character descriptions are welcome, but no stats.
	If I can work it out about 5-7 players.

candi cabaniss                
9780 morgantown rd.          
Bowling Green, ky 42101
cabanc@wkuvx1.wku.edu


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From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: All gods are one god?  Maybe
Message-ID: <01HBLAAN4S5C9GY1LU@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 25 Apr 94 09:46:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3807

>I must take the person who stated that the worship of all storm gods
>is really just the worship of Orlanth or Umath. 

Take me!  Take me, you stud!  Oh, sorry, wait...carry-over from the 
broo-dominance discussion.


>You are basically claiming that all deities of a particular aspect 
>are just one deity. [...] Let me put it another way:  I seriously 
>doubt that Indra and Zeus are really "just the same god" simply 
>because they share aspects as lords of storm and sky and King of 
>Gods.  Why should this be any different in Glorantha.

I'm glad you asked that question!  The easy answer is because 
Glorantha is different!!!!

Now the more complicated answer:

In Glorantha, the gods are REAL, PERSONAL, and INVOLVED IN DAILY 
LIFE, sometimes in a very tangible way.  Our gods here in The Real 
World aren't.  FLAME RETARDANT NOTE:  this is not a confession of 
atheism, merely the observation that, by our myths, humans weren't 
present at the creation of the world, nor do our gods seem to speak 
directly to us (at least nowadays).  Our belief in our gods is based 
on our faith in that which we can't prove.  In Glorantha, the gods 
are THERE, and some of the more powerful priests can speak to the 
gods directly.

Real Life: Christians, for example, don't believe that any of the 
Hindu gods exist at all, or ever.  There is no pervasive mono-myth to 
tie any of our religions together.

Glorantha: Yelm worshippers think Orlanth is a bumwipe, but they know 
that he's real.  Even the G*d L**rn*rs believe that *something* 
happened, and although there are many differing myths concerning the 
birth of humans, there is also a common mono-myth in which 
practically everyone believes.


I'm not saying that one couldn't make a case against God Learners or 
against "X is really an aspect of Y," but I just don't feel that 
Earth religions are a good measure of how things in Glorantha work.  
Hindu myths don't include the Christian god, and Christian myths 
don't include Zeus.  Gloranthan myths may differ as to what roles the 
gods played, but the gods are all in the myths!

Scott


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From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Cops and Robber Barons in Heat...
Message-ID: <01HBLASK8ZPC9GXTDG@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 25 Apr 94 10:00:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3808

>>Scott says: "If someone hears a village/town resident..."
> Yes, I think this is essentially what I said.  What part did
>you not agree with?  
Just the part about having a regular, standing police force (Romans 
notwithstanding, I consider them an exception to the general rule). 
It might not even have been you that said that police should be 
involved...merely a general comment on my part. (That and not enough 
bloody sleep....)

My point, essentially, was "Villagers are their own cops.  Dweebs 
with uniforms and badges need not apply."


>     I just hope the source isn't "Asterix."  (Joke)

Heh heh heh heh!


Scott


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From: brandon@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov (Brandon Brylawski)
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 25 Apr 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9404251926.AA23797@caldonia.nlm.nih.gov>
Date: 25 Apr 94 19:26:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3810

Martin notes :

>Re: warrior women
>     The Washington Post today had an article about the Silver
>Bullets, the women's baseball team sponsored by Coor's Brewery. 
>Like it or not, the best women athletes can't beat mediocre men's
>athletes.  
>      So warrior women in Glorantha are going to have to fight
>using some strategies other than brute strength.  RQ doesn't make
>strength everything, but it does count.  Bows are good idea;
>fighting from a mount is another (think Unicorn Women). 
>    But what about your average Babeester Gori temple guard?  (I
>assume she is of normal woman STR and SIZ, not on the heroic
>scale.)  Axes require brute force to use, and the more force, the better.

The Silver Bullets are not a good example of women's prowess in sport,
as they are excellent softball players who only recently (< 1 year) switched to 
baseball.

More important, the difference between men and women in strength and running 
speed only manifests itself at the very apex of ability. Certainly championship
male tennis players, major league baseball players, or sprinters can beat out
the best women, but these are very rarified circles; the best female sportsmen
can defeat the overwhelming proportion of men at their game. The Silver Bullets
article noted that Chris Evert Lloyd could not beat her brother, a "mediocre
player"; however, her brother was mediocre only by the standards of tournament
tennis players! Chris Lloyd could have gone to any tennis club and wpied
up the competition without difficulty, I imagine.

I have seen this in my own sport, volleyball. The best male players can easily
defeat the best females, but the latter can defeat 90% of all male players.

Add to this the fact that warrior women, of whatever stripe, tend to be
quite an atypical, self-selected bunch and would be much larger and stronger
than average women. A woman who isn't strong enough to swing an axe well just
won't join Babeester Gor. "Average" women don't become fighters.

Brandon

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From: timbee@timbee.rnd.symix.com (Dogs Playing Poker)
Subject: Martin crawls out from under the Block
Message-ID: <9404251929.AA20813@timbee.rnd.symix.com.symix>
Date: 25 Apr 94 19:29:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3811

argrath@aol.com wrote:
[stuff about prostitution = polygamy and because a woman's baseball team loses
to Australians then Babeesta Gor warriors must be puny]

How many times have you been tapped son ? Before you take your rightful place
as a recruit of Dave Cheng's legion of Humakti (Tap Victims all SIZ 1 STR 1 
INT 1 , etc.) think about what you are saying. This is a fantasy RPG . female
characters have the same stat roll ups as men. They are the same size and 
strength. There is just as good a chance of a hulking drooling Babeesta Gor
as a Storm Bull. Your argument regarding polygamy being the same as 
prostitution lacks content and merit. The roles taken in a lawful
polygamistic society do not in anyway resemble those of a prositutional
arrangement. Read some Pearl S. Buck regarding historical China for insight
regarding polygamy.

Remember that while some cultures are modeled after cultures in our world they
are not exactly the same. Definitely no experience check for your submission.

Tim Beecher (Trickster of the Cheng Pantheon, just ask Dave)

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From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Warrior Women
Message-ID: <940425205419_100102.3001_BHJ42-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 25 Apr 94 20:54:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3812

Martin sez in X-RQ-ID 3789:

>    So warrior women in Glorantha are going to have to fight
>using some strategies other than brute strength.  RQ doesn't make
>strength everything, but it does count.  

Fair enough but we are talking about Glorantha here, not Earth.  If we can
suspend our disbelief long enough to have Ducks running around worshipping
Hueymakt and seeking out the minions of Kwakboth  then surely we can allow
Gloranthan women possessed of a physical prowess matching or even exceeding that
of their Terran analogues without causing a Sunstop.  I've got nothing against
them using their brains but I do not feel that they should be excluded from the
'beefcake brigade' just 'coz they look better in a lamellar skirt!  

If we were to question the captioned supposition then maybe we should also query
the skills of an RQ character of aged 24 years who, in Terran terms, is only 19?

Cheers,

Peter




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From: carlsonp@wdni.com (Carlson, Pam)
Subject: Polyandry, woman warriors
Message-ID: <2DBC54EF@itlab.wtc.weyer.com>
Date: 25 Apr 94 23:38:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3813


OOH!  OOH!  Martin Crim brings up sociobiology!
A subject near and dear to my heart.  Lookout.

 > Men with a lot of wealth can afford more than one wife.

Martin's comments on biology and economics influencing marital activities
 were right on.  I remember a graph where relative number of cultures
practicing polygamy correlated inversely with lattitute - most polygamous
human cultures  were in the tropics.  As you move toward the poles, with
 harsher climates, you find increasingly monogamous groups.   There are
also species of birds which are sometimes monogamous, sometimes
polygamous, depending largely on the availability of food.  It all boils 
down
 to how many adults are required to raise young.  Another handy bird 
strategy
is for yearlings to hang around their parent's nest to help out with next 
year's
offspring.  They are not strong enough or experienced enough to start their
 own nest, so they help out their parents and ensure the survival of more 
sibs.
(After all, a diploid critter has just as many genes in common with a full 
sib
as with an offspring).   Humans implement this strategy by living in 
extended families.

An example of polyandry occurs in Tibet (or used to, anyway).  Sometimes one 

woman would marry several brothers.  This way the family had several men to
scratch out an existence in a harsh climate, and all the children would be 
either
their sons or their nephews.

***************************************
  <>
1.   Of course, individuals can transcend biology and
act according to high falutin' moral standards, but when you look
at all 5.5 billion of us, we act a lot like extra-clever rats.

2. Like the rest of science, sociobiology may not apply to Glorantha at all. 
But
 these principles predict human interactions, which seem to translate well 
into
Gloranthan.
***************************************

  > Now to polygamy: if a woman is pretty sure that her husband
>won't stop supporting her economically when he takes another
>wife, she won't strongly object to it.  She'll want to be Number
>One Wife, of course, for the social and economic power that
>brings.  But having a junior co-wife can even be an advantage to
>a woman, in some societies.

Families with more than one wife often share chores, and the other
 wives provide companionship, as well.  (In polygamous cultures where
men and women are segregated,  husbands and wives generally do not
socialize in the same circles.)

 >You also get this (men without mates) in a society where men marry late in 
their twenties, when
they can afford it.

 The above  situation is found among the Grazers - the women marry young and 
the men marry
in their late twenties/early thirties.  This leads to lots of frustrated 
Grazer guys, and
can spark great role-playing opportunities.
Our stalwart (bachelor) Grazer warriors went raiding down in Esrolia, with 
visions of poorly
guarded ponies and bored Uleria priestesses waiting for them.  Alas....

Re: warrior women

      So warrior women in Glorantha are going to have to fight
using some strategies other than brute strength.  RQ doesn't make
strength everything, but it does count.  Bows are good idea;
fighting from a mount is another (think Unicorn Women).

Good point.  As a female player, I often play male characters
for this very reason.  (It's also not a lot of fun to play women
in male-centered fantasy worlds.  RQ seems to be the most equitable of the 
bunch.)
 But it is great fun to play combat-effective women.  As a ref, I give the 
player of a women
an option to take -2 STR,  +1 DEX and +1 CON, reflecting a lower 
center-of-gravity
and a higher resistance to disease, starvation, etc.  Otherwise, the player 
can roll
normal stats.  After all, in Glorantha, biology need not apply, right?

Martin makes a great point about the "gross", character of BG
divine magic, (by which he must mean that it burns many MP for BIG damage -
as in Axe Trance and Slash). Lack of STR in worshippers is a good 
explanation
 for why BG has these spells;  Zorak Zoran might consider them superflous.
 (I never imagined I'd use ZZ  as an example of moderation!)

Every smart BG warrior walks next door to
the Ernalda temple for some Shimmer, or to the Asrelia shrine for
Protection.

and several points of Strength! ? (Is it available? I don't have the Cults 
book handy.)

BG doesn't give access to any
arrow magics, however, and I think that's a major disadvantage.

But arrows are associated with fire/sky gods.  Polestar is a good cult
for female warriors; lots of arrow spells, unlike most of the Yelm pantheon, 
it
makes room for women in the upper eschelons.  But, being largely within the 
Lunar Empire,
Polestar is not too accessible in most campaigns.

Time to go home and feed dogs:-)

Pam

<^==@
    /\  /\



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