From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 30 Apr 1994, part 3
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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Movements from the Bowels...
Message-ID: <940429215653_100270.337_BHL21-2@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 29 Apr 94 21:56:53 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3853
It was me wot sent MOB the farting quote he was so reluctant to attribute.
Nikolai Tolstoy's book "The Coming of the King" is a wonderful thing, IMHO,
if you can stand heaps of Celtic and Germanic obscurity. The man needed an
editor; but an editor would probably have cut all the best things...
The "Copronymous" story (about the font, the nappy, the nasty accident and
the uncouth priest at the christening) is from the chronicle of Theophanes,
an icon-loving (i.e. highly impartial) monastic author. You can find more
Byzantine weirdness in any account of the reign of Justinian II, the "Man
with the Golden Nose". (Sounds like a James Bond villain). Tell them about
the robot birds, MOB!
Truth is usually stranger (and sillier) than fiction.
Alex, I'm working on the history of Carmania for eventual publication by
Chaosium (we hope). There have been a few leaks and spin-offs so far; there
will be more at Convulsion, I expect. "Evil", "nasty", "oppressive", etc.
are fair enough as descriptions of the ruling Carmanians (or of any other
"nobility") at their worse times. There were bright patches in between
(pre-Lunar Carmanian history spans some five centuries, not monotonously),
and they did develop a unique hybrid culture from which the Lunar Way grew.
In fact, Carmanian culture is (and remains) one of two major links between
Malkionism and the Lunar Empire (the other being the Arrolian city-states,
of course). Which answers someone else's question about the Lunar Way and
how/why the Malkioni might perceive it:
i) On their doorstep (figuratively / literally) in Junora/Loskalm;
ii) Historically, as a heresy that grew out of a heresy.
More grist to the mill: Carmanians were certainly polygamous (by which I
mean the Shahs and the richest Satraps at their more decadent periods;
certainly less than the 3% mooted here). They also originated the customs
followed by some Lunars of maintaining harems (and bath-houses, too!). I'm
worried that real-world polygamy crops up only in hot countries, but this
has always been a problem with Gloranthan climate (hairy Nordic barbarians
in the south, with Mediterranean/Middle Eastern empires to the north), so
I'm just going with the flow and ignoring the resulting "implausability".
Besides, the summers were hotter before the Moon... and you've got to have
something to do in the long, cold winters...
====
Nick
====
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: The role of Runes in magic and Glorantha
Message-ID:
Date: 29 Apr 94 22:12:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3854
Loren Miller in X-RQ-ID: 3836
> This is extracted from a discussion that Andy Skinner and I have been
> having about gloranthan magic. He wants to work up a ars magica
> style magic system for runequest/glorantha, just as an exercise, and
> we started talking. I'd be interested in what y'all have to say about
> his and my theories.
You ought to read Paul Reilly's article on Runic sorcery in Free INT 5.
Paul, will you post it some time?
> Andy wrote:
>>
> The noun/verb style of magic would work within cults, but one of the
> features of RQ is that people in cults may get certain powers from
> associated cults. Frinstance a barbarian Orlanthi might get the
> ability to go Berserk from his brother Storm Bull, but wouldn't get
> the full range of death/animal/storm powers that Storm Bullies get.
> How would you handle gift powers for associated cults under your
> system?
A gets only limited control of B's control of the power. If A could
control its own powers up to say 5 points of POW, maybe its control
over B's loaned power would be restricted to 2 or 3 points of POW?
> Note that the way it works mythologically is that entity A asks for
> a boon from entity B who gives some token of that boon that is
> invested with B's own Power to entity A. A then uses the token to
> benefit from the boon. A can reuse the token since it contains a
> piece of B's power.
> Now what's the best way to simulate that?
Similarly to the vis rules? The boon exchanged might be a living
source of vis which could be drawn upon.
>> I looked at the intro Glorantha book from the boxed set last
>> night. The runes are all nouns, I see. What does it mean for a
>> god to be a rune's owner?
I think that the eight Power Runes are "participes", both verb and
noun, while the Form and Element Runes are mainly adjectives or nouns.
>> If there are two gods relating to the air
>> do both get power from that rune?
> Yes. But... don't fall to the temptation to read too much into the
> runes. They're a classificatory system on Glorantha, not the building
> blocks of the universe. Actually, the gods don't draw power from the
> rune. The rune is a symbol of all Air, and they draw power from Air.
> You could have a rune/symbol for anything you wanted, and would use
> it to focus the power from everything that fit the symbolism.
While the Runes aren't the actual building blocks for the universe,
they certainly represent these enough to be confused with them. As
implied in my reply to Sandy, I think that any creature possessing the
Man Rune will be a bipedal creature getting live young, probably
possess mammalia of some kind or other (female ducks might have food
sacks from which they regurgitate pre-digested food for their
ducklings, yet for the outsider this looks almost exactly like nursing.
What do you duck-lovers out there think?
>> So what is the relationship between "owning" a rune and being
>> a god with power over certain things which are similar to one or
>> more of the runes?
> I think that the Runes are incorporated into the very essence of
> their owners, and by using the Runes other gods/heroes/etc actually
> offer some form of worship to the Rune's owner. Certainly the owner
> benefits from it in Magic Points, Power, and whatever the godly
> currency might be. It's like the Rune serves as a link to everything
> it symbolizes, and by accessing the Rune (either directly for the
> Rune's owner, or through the Rune's owner for others) one can draw
> on the power behind it. It's like there's a dimensional rift with
> AIR-POWER on the other side and Orlanth is the gate. If you want to
> access the rift you need a key and you have to pay a fee to Orlanth.
I think that Orlanth only guards the main door (or rather stream), the
side doors or minor streams are guarded by other storm deities. A lot
of power-heroquesting would be about how to divert part of the stream
without the owner noticing or being able to prevent it.
Also it seems possible to steal all of a power from an entity. Yelmalio
lost all his fire powers to Zorak Zoran. Would Yelm be the single
keeper of all Fire powers, I doubt the Zorak Zorani would still be able
to produce heat.
>> To look at how entities share parts of their power, I'd have to
>> decide about verbs (runes look like nouns, and I don't there has
>> to be a limited number of them--book said there are minor runes and
>> such): are they owned by everyone, or do different gods have
>> strengths with different verbs?
I think the Powers are somewhat verbish, so these are commonly
available on a low basis - the common divine spells seem to be the
common legacy of the defunct deities of the Celestial Court.
> I think you'd be better off if instead of thinking of Runes as nouns
> you thought of them as sets and simultaneously as Powers that may be
> exercised within those sets. They are magical and follow the laws of
> similarity and analogy rather than deductive laws.
This is true, alas. Most runes have aspects which fit in more than one
category (active, passive, descriptive...). The main problem with Runic
sorcery is that the runes weren't designed to describe certain
techniques or effects.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: Thanatar; reply to Sandy
Message-ID: <9404292244.AA02515@bondi.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 29 Apr 94 22:44:05 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3855
Paul Reilly here.
Sandy writes:
>In my opinion, the cult of Thanatar is primarily an Eastern
>phenomenon, and the (exceedingly) rare occurrences of his cultists
Certainly this is the case for Atyar - the writeup implies the
cult is Kralorelan in origin. Than might be a little more far flung -
perhaps those
jungles in Fethlon and Bliss in Ignorance both have a Than cult.
My timeline for the cult would say that the reunion of Than and Atyar
took place under the New Dragon's Ring - after all this sort of tinkering
on the God Plane is very much a God Learner sort of thing. While the
False Dragons ruled, every sort of evil grew in the land - Thanatar included.
When Godunya was restored, the smartest ones fled, some remained to be
hunted down, and some dug in and laid low. The ones who fled are the
most important from the point of view of the rest of trhe continent - they
were clever, powerful, and secretive and some were able to start up branches
of the cult elsewhere.
>I don't think there's a Thanatar temple in
>Dorastor, for instance
We had one. In our visit to Dorastor, the head of the
Atyari temple was Kralorelan in origin (and rather old - he fled Kralorela
not too long after Godunya was found, since he feared the power of a True
Dragon Emperor.) Pavis could plausibly have a Thanatar temple, as the
Kralorelan
caravan trade goes there. Peloria also might have some secret temples.
Dorastor is a logical place for some to end up, because of the lack of
organized persecution. Maybe even Ralios...
> I know that there IS a great big temple in the Tunneled Hills.
Makes sense.
>I see the pre-Union cult of Atyar being popular
>among the the civilized areas of Kralorela, with Than being known
>among the monsters of the mountains and also probably in the
>wilderness of the KoI.
Agree. Headhunters down in the jungle as well. Atyar flourishes in
more civilized areas, Than on the fringes.
Sandy quotes Alex:
>> (Trolls)
>>the KoI. But most, I reckon, as simply indifferent to the sentience
>>of their food
> I wholly agree, and slightly misspake my case -- what I meant
>was not so much that Sentients are Fun Food, but that Certain
>Sentients Taste Good. I.e., a troll really likes dwarf and elf, frex.
Point of pedantry: DO we mean Sapients (thinkers) or Sentients (feelers)
here?
In any case, I do know that there is an Uz prohibition concerning eating
sapient beings (not corpses but live beings). My supposition is that
this stems from the basic Darkness principle You Are What You Eat - eating
living beings can lead to identity conflicts, chaos, snowballing power,
etc. Look at Bagog, or Argin Terror.
> A good summary, on which I will now expound. I suggest that
>the Malkioni have close contact with their deity's immanence. The
I am writing up stuff on Malkioni beliefs, not yet well formed. Would
you like to look at it and comment? I believe that the original
version of the IG was immanent, but that some churches now see him as
transcendant, for example. THere is a lot more...
> I'm basing it on the fine discussions re: Carmania here on
>the Net! My own treatment of Carmania in mine own campaign is going
THanks. (As originator of a LOT of material... do people want more Carmanian
stuff on the Daily? I was waiting until the Carmanian interest group
had hashed out more of a consensus before posting a lot...)
>I believe the average stereotypic Carmanian ruling-type to
>be arrogant and sneering,
The Carmananian response: "So? What's your point?"
Actually they are very cultured people. I like them a lot.
Sandy quotes Alex Ferguson:
>>The Lunar spoutings about the Creator are clearly intended to make
>>Lunar thinking more acceptable to Malkioni, not less ... Clearly no
Agree. Also I think that the Invisible Orlanth heresy _publicly_
subscribes to the Lunar version of things, with Orlanth as the Healed
Breath of the Creator (the Breath is very important - it is how the
Creator acts in the world, as in bringing the revelations to Malkion
and Hrestol.) Regardless of what they get up to behind closed doors,
I think they must have a public face of subscribing to Lunar philosophy.
> I think the main objection of the Malkioni to the Lunars is
>the Lunar acceptance of Chaos, which the Malkioni oppose with all the
>vehemence of any Orlanthi.
If not more. There are a lot of Orlanthi who flirt with Chaos, one
way or another - look at Sartar and Argrath for example. The Malkioni
opposition is more fundamental as they are aligned more fully with Law.
> In the same way that many folk
>who have never met a Mormon figure they must be fanatic cultists,
>most Malkioni doubtless think of theists as radicals.
Very much so.
> In my campaign, I play that women have a STR of 2d6+2 and a
>SIZ of 2d6+3.
Hmm. I think we should look up some figures - my friend Nils used
to have a NASA study on this very topic. The differences did not seem
that big.
>All other differences (higher DEX, higher CON, etc.) I regard as unproven.
^^^
Looking at ultramarathons, color blindness, pre-natal mortality, many
genetic diseases, etc., I would have to say that there is a discernable
CON difference. You might give women an extra point of CON and give them
a chance to lose a point of CON at each childbirth, barring Couvade, etc.
>I admit that women live marginally longer than men
Isn't on the order of 10%? What would you call non marginal?
Certainly STR is much lower for Western females than males - I would like
to compare strengths among say the Mae Enga, where the females are non
sedentary, before saying the biological gap is really large.
>It is possible (but I'm not sure) that the Brithini and
>Vadeli are a different species from Homo sapiens.
Aren't the people of Seshnela and Loskalm descended from Brithini
colonists? At least according to the history in Cults of Terror. Of
course they could have 'evolved' into a different species.
I think Hsunchen are descended from their animals. Magical transformation
that bred more or less true.
> I classify trolls as a separate order within the mammals, the
I think that that is convergence rather than a common ancestor. Rock
digesting ability is kind of a tipoff... I think that Kyger Litor ate
something of the Man shape and learned the shape, prodauce Man shaped
children.
> Trolls give milk, have body hair, etc. They're obviously mammals. I
Interesting. We play that this is a similarity of form but that there
are underlying differences. The 'milk' is a modified and enriched form
of blood (rather than sweat as in mammals), the hair is chitinous and
more similar to caterpillar hair than mammal hair, etc.
Sweat is one of the distinguishing features of a mammal. Do you think
Trolls sweat? Their heat tolerance seems a bit low.
> Dwarfs I'm not sure of. I have yet to be convinced that
Constructs. Living machines (the true Mostali) built them.
Paul
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: Vadeli stuff
Message-ID: <9404300215.AA01267@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 29 Apr 94 14:15:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3857
VADELI SPECULATIONS
In modern Glorantha, only two varieties of Vadeli are known to have
survived: the Brown and the Red. The Blue class is supposedly
extinct, and has been so since Time began. However, in the First and
Second Ages, the Red class was also supposedly extinct, but when
Dormal Opened the seas, new islands were discovered, on which dwelt
Red Vadeli. The re-appearance of the Red Vadeli seems to have
invigorated this ancient race, and for a while after the Opening,
they traveled everywhere and using their new-found knowledge to gain
footholds in Jrustela and all the northen coast of Pamaltela, from
whence they were only ousted with difficulty. In fact, they still
remain, but are no longer the dominant naval power.
It's not unfair to compare the Third Age Vadeli's economic
position with that of the ancient Phoenicians. They have little
military or even political strength, but are ubiquitous traders,
middlemen, speculators, spies, and meddlers. However, culturally they
do not particularly resemble the Phoenicians (nor any Earth culture).
A comparison between the Vadeli and the Brithini is often
made in Malkioni texts. The Brithini and Vadeli are ancient foes --
while they may not hold the instinctive significance that, for
instance, elves and dwarfs share, they probably dislike each other as
much as any two human races are able (i.e., heaps) and I can think of
no recorded instance, either pre- or post-Dawn in which the two
groups cooperated, except in those rare cases, such as I Fought We
Won, in which "all" sentience were as one.
The original Vadeli had three castes: Brown, Red, and Blue.
The Brown caste roughly corresponds to the Malkioni Farmer caste or
the Brithini Dromal caste. The Red caste = Warrior/Horal, and the
Blue caste = Noble/Talar. The Vadeli have no Wizard/Zzabur
equivalent. However, all Vadeli learn sorcery, and in fact know many
unique spells, as is only appropriate to such an ancient culture.
The Vadeli are one of the most secretive peoples in
Glorantha. Even the Brithini are forthcoming compared to them. Not
only do the Vadeli never tell outsiders any secrets, but they also
prevaricate with facility. Complicated lies seem to come naturally to
the Vadeli and they appear to spend a great deal of time rehearsing
and coordinating their stories together. At least, every time a group
of Vadeli are given the opportunity to collude together, they do so.
The Vadeli are immortal, so long as they do not violate the
rules of their caste. These rules are never shared with outsiders,
but some of them have been figured out by Brithini and other
observers. The Brown Vadeli may not use any weapon associated with
one of the elements. All other weapons (what's left over) are freely
available (hammer, crossbow, dagger, tool, etc.). In addition, the
Brown Vadeli may not captain a ship, only small boats. This last
prohibition may explain why they did nothing overseas until the Red
returned.
The Red Vadeli can use any type of weapon, and can serve as
ship captains. They cannot farm or plow, nor can they fish with net
or line, but are allowed to herd, hunt, and harpoon sea creatures
such as walruses or whales. They milk their beasts, which is probably
where they got most of their vitamins before the Opening, since plant
food was hard to come by. Now, of course, they get grain and fruit
from the Brown Vadeli. Before they had access to the mainland, the
Red Vadeli kept only goats, while the Brown Vadeli kept both goats
and sheep. Now, they also have pigs, domestic fowl, and all sorts of
local beasts in mainland ports (horses, cattle, thunderbeasts, etc.)
It is unknown what the Blue Vadeli are good for. It is
notable that the Vadeli have not engaged in any large-scale land
battles, even allowing for their small numbers. In addition, the only
major naval battle they fought was a disaster, costing them control
over the Pamaltela seaboard. For that matter, their cunning plan to
gain control over all the coastal cities by claiming to be gods only
lasted a few years. These failings may signify a major shortcoming in
the Vadeli "mix". The Brithini have been known to grouse that "If the
Blue Vadeli had been around, their stinking hegemony in Umathela
would have lasted generations." Presumably, their Vadeli grab for
power would have been better-planned.
It is widely believed that one of the Vadeli caste strictures
is a prohibition against revealing the Vadeli "secrets". Even under
torture, the Vadeli are generally adamant about this, and have
sometimes died, using a technique similar to the Lamsabi Seal Tongue
ritual, rather than talk. Perhaps the Vadeli immortality has made
them incapable of distinguishing between "inevitable caste-violation
death because I blabbed" and "immediate death now if I don't blab".
Individually, the Vadeli are quite personable. They are
affable, polite, and quick to apologize. Most Vadeli are both
quick-thinking and intelligent. Though the Vadeli are friendly
enough, most folks feel that the Vadeli friendship is somehow
"superficial"; too slick for sincerity. Certainly when they are
threatened, the Vadeli react with ruthless alacrity. Who knows? The
general feeling is that it is "Easy to make a Vadeli's acquaintance,
but impossible to become a true friend."
While the Vadeli are still only around in small numbers,
their renaissance is obviously upsetting the Brithini, who remember
ancient Godtime wrongs. Tales of Vadeli wrongdoing are spreading
throughout Glorantha, some possibly true, some obvious lies. The
best-known tales and their frequencyare as follows:
1) The Vadeli eat children in dark rituals. [common]
2) The Vadeli voluntarily mate with broos and scorpion queens.
[common]
3) A Red Vadeli must slay one of his own parents or grandparents to
be initiated as a warrior. [common]
4) The Vadeli know the God Learner Secret. [rare]
5) The Vadeli are not humans at all, and shed their forms once a
year, appearing in their true shape for one night. [rare]
6) The Vadeli actually worship an entity that signifies the chaotic
equivalent to Arachne Solara. [rare]
Sandy Petersen