From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 03 May 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: RuneQuest-Request@glorantha.holland.sun.com (RQ Digest Maintainer) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 02 May 1994, part 1 Message-ID: <9405020715.AA03703@glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM> Date: 2 May 94 11:15:18 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3872 X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson) Subject: Tithed away at every turn. Message-ID: <9405012012.AA07063@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 1 May 94 20:12:24 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3868 Joerg: > Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3792 > > If two deities are worshipped > > together in an area a great deal, I think you have a point. Some local > > hack would be likely to `fix' this, I think. > Ok, first signs of agreement here. I'd made that point before, in regards my suggestions for possible Orlanthi multiple-deity (proto-)cults. Maybe I should write one of 'em sometime, to give y'all something to aim your potshots at. > >> The system breaks down in societies which demand specialisation, i.e. urban > >> societies. > > > Why? I don't see this is the case at all. More specialised roles surely > > implies more specialised worship, not more general worship. > > Yes. To live in a Sartarite city requires a threefold religious > specialisation of its citizens. But it doesn't. Unless the Watch cast Soul Sight on people at the gate, to check if their tithes to all three cults are up to date. > First the religion of the clan and land, > generally Orlanth, in Alda Chur Yelmalio, since 1602 alternatively the > Lunar pantheon. The structures and importance of clans in cities is questionable. Persons living in towns or cities are distanced from their tribal origins, and possibly removed entirely. Hence even if full membership of your clan normally requires that you be an Orlanth initiate, this may be much less important in urbanised septs. The Lunar religion isn't one which would facilitate a clan structure, and I think conversions are almost entirely on an individual basis. > Second one's personal professional specialisation, which > includes a cultic component in any traditional craft. At least in Germany, > although mightily obscured ever since the Reformation (1517-1530). Not every city dweller is a "professional", or an artisan, so this argument only goes so far. Also, many such cults are likely to be subcults of other, more generally important cults. Frex, the masons of Pavis are a subcult of the city god, in Sartar many will be subcults of Orlanth or Ernalda. > Third > the cultic connection to the city-god or sprits, and to the spirits of the > land, Sartar for the political aspects, and the land spirits (Quivin, Grain > Goddess) for the physical aspects. One can live in a city without being initiated into its God, at least, I believe, in most cases. cf. "Pavis residents" in RoC. Note that requirements to remain initiated to a city god aren't very onerous, in any case. Most city dwellers, I believe, don't join all of the above, they join whichever happens to be most important to them, personally, and possibly worshipping the others as lay members or associates. > City gods don't seem to have lay members which worship, as soon as you > worship, you are acting as an initiate. Same for the country deity, Sartar. Why do you say that? Not taking GoG seriously again, are you? ;-) > There is no organized cult except among his descendants in somewhat Daka > Fal fashion, but the Orlanth Rex cult in Sartar does exactly this. It does? Surely most Orlanth Rex worshippers in Sartar aren't even related to the royal bloodline? > The Malkioni influence in Heortland is twofold. The more recent Rokari > incursion of Richard the Tigerhearted [...] > The older Malkioni influence stems from Arkat's crusade against Gbaji. My understanding is that the dominant Western influence on Maniria is post-Closing. (The "Trader Princes". See G:CotHW; GB2, p46.) This seems to be very much a "top-down" influence. This timescale also corresponds roughly to the settling of the Quivins area, by people, recall, seeking to establish "old-time Orlanth worship". > > Perhaps this is sorta more "theist-flavoured" than the "usual" henothesist > > religions of Ralios. Do you invisage this distinction, too, or do you see > > Heortland and the other "Stygians" as being similar? > Ralios has all possible stages of henotheism, IMO. An all-too-likely circumstance. Perhaps I should have asked a more clearly-defined question, such as "Is it similar to the doctrine of the Henotheist Church?" > Yes. A low initiate in my book essentially is someone only assciated to the > cults of his homeland. So the youths not having chosen a specific patron > are low initiates, or associate initiates. But if you're including non-Adults in this category, aren't you demurring from the proposition that being "Initiated" in this sense is a sign of adulthood, which appeared to be the original purpose of this idea? (Possibly merely another person's (or subminority's?) motivation.) > >> Hmm. The ordinary Sartarite will come from a clan which worships one or > >> two preferred deities of the Orlanth Array directly, and the rest as > >> associates. > > I think most worship more than two, and even if not, it's still a > > significantly different circumstance than a henotheistic situation, > > where for _everyone_ the IG is by the fundemental tenet of the religion > > the prime figure. > The Aeolians worship the trinity of Invisible God Creator, World > Spirit (Glorantha = Ginna Jar = Arachne Solara), and Orlanth > Lightbringer. Of these, only Orlanth also receives cultic or saint worship. I have my quibbles about your suggested Aeolian theology, but I'll save that for another message. (Nano-summary: God Learner!! Kill!!! ) But in any case, if all Aeolians worship their Trinity, my point holds good. > The Elmali/Yelmalion Clans dissented already before the reign of Tarkalor, > and continued to do so up to 1625. This indicates deeper roots than just > the nobility - in Orlanthi society a foreign nobility (worshipping the > wrong, i.e. a different deity) would have been deposed sooner rather than > later. Well, there were Elmal clans and tribes for some time. However, the radical pro-Solar, anti-Wind attitudes are no more recent than the Yelmalio split, and are certainly more manifest in Harvar than in the typical tribeman, some of whom still worship Orlanth. > > RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.23 > > "In regions where gods are worshiped, every _responsible or respectable_ > > adult will be an initiate of a religion." > I.e. in Sartar all but Tricksters, who are as well. Eh? This is surmise, and not very self-consistent surmise either. > > RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.24 > > "In communities practicing religions, it is a _traditional sign_ of > > adulthood to become an initiate of the appropriate religion or cult" > Failing this sign, you fail the proof. Simple logic, as practised in rural > communities. I've already said that where a _particular_ deity is worshipped throughout the community, it makes sense that cultic and adulthood initiation are seen, and practised, as one. However, this isn't true of cities, and probably not of the non-remote rural areas of a "modern" country like Sartar. > > KoS p.245 > > "Initiates in any cult of the pantheon are the next level. This > > includes _almost_ every Orlanthi adult." > All but the Ancestor worshippers or otherwise shamanic adherents of e.g. > Umath or Kolat, in my reading. This isn't a "reading" of the text at all, however, it's quite an added level of interpretation. Consistent with, yes, evidence of, no. Does the clan elder stand up in the middle of the adulthood initiation ceremonies and reel off a lengthy list of permissable statuses for the aspirat to hold? ("Are you now, or have you ever been, an initiate of Orlanth, Barntar [...] a shamanic apprentice, or member of one of the following approved spirit cults...") > Plus single Aeolian Malkioni in Wilms Church > (the name tells, really) I beleive that "kirk" is a southern Sartarite dialect term, and certainly doesn't refer to a Western-style church of any kind. (At any rate, the mentions of its founding speak of a central "temple".) > No. The whole point of my arguments is that you get certain intitation, > some religious intitation included, without having to sack a pointa POW. It is? I think I need a programme to keep track of the players here. I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing, but it sounds not unlike (gasp) lay membership. An RQ2ism devoutly to be wished. > >> I agree with this. There surely are a lot of Cottar adult initiates of > >> Voriof in his shepherd aspect. There might be as well an aspect > >> "Orlanth the Youth", possibly closely linked to the Yinkin cult, but > >> that's not documented anywhere, so I chose "Voriof" to describe the > >> boys who had their communion but not their initiation. > > I'm mildly confused, are we speaking of things Aeolian, or (say) Sartarite > > here? Insert, respectively, acquiescence or blustering rebuttal according > > to your answer. > Yes to both. > I'm speaking of things Aeolian and Heortling here, the latter including > Sartarite as per KoS Jalk's book. It'd be a mistake to equate the "Heortlings" in general with the modern Heortlanders. As I say, this sounds quite plausible as a henotheistic idea, but seems rather artificial from a strictly theist viewpoint. > > Why would someone be considered a "Voriof initiate", when they don't worship > > Voriof, and they're not an initiate in any previously known sense? > Because the cult structure is similar to that of Voria, and done in this > sense. (Previously known...) Oh, I see. I'm not sure I'd draw this exact analogy with Voria, myself. Certainly not if shepherd-boys are trundling around with actual magic. Granted this would explain your use of the term, Voria initiates cheerily ignoring all the usual meanings of the word. > > What > > is the need for such a status, other than a (spurious, in my view) analogy > > with the structure of (say) the Yelm cult? What do we "need" Low Initiation > > for anyway, other than filling the requirement (which I don't think is at > > all absolute) for Adults to be Initiates, which is in any case inapplicable > > here as we're speaking of non-Adults? > Voriof is the god of boyhood, according to KoS p.50-52. If the boys are to > participate in rituals, they'll do so as representatiives of the boyhood > deity. I disagree. Some boys who've never seen the business end of a sheep will worship Voriof, but I don't think it will be remotely universal. If a child has some clearer, less generic religious path to follow, they'll suely do so in preference. > > Surely any Orlanthi would call this person an "Apprentice [bone|red]smith", > > or an "Apprentice to Gustbran", or some other such comparatively non-God > > Learnerish term? > How much is this worth in a ceremony concerning frinst the fertilty rites > for the whole commune? Prolly not a lot. How much is a Voriof initiate (using your envisaged scheme) worth? Prolly not a lot. > No. But in my vision most town boys fail to be even part-time shepherds. Perhaps not, depending on the town. If sheparding isn't locally important, the importance of Voriof, and the traditional association of him to male non-Adults, is likely to be accordingly reduced. > Sure they have the spirit of the founder, and a few other minor local > saints or spirits. Only you don't get initiated to such spirits. Joining a spirit cult is effectively becoming an Initiate to that spirit, in all but name. Alex. --------------------- From: guy.hoyle@chrysalis.org Subject: DWARF BIOLOGY Message-ID: <9404292215.A7915wk@chrysalis.org> Date: 29 Apr 94 20:15:21 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3859 Welcome back, Sandy! The lengthy discussion on biology and taxonomy was interesting, though a bit over my head. I'll bow to Sandy's obvious 90%+ in Biology. I did have something to contribute re: the biology of Dwarfs. In my own short Ambush Gap campaign, which borrowed heavily from Glorantha, I concluded that Dwarfs may have originally been of mammalian stock, but they have heavily modified it over the years by the magical equivalent of genetic engineering. They are masters of alchemy, and create many constructs; even their myths claim that the Original Mostali created other Mostali who created other Mostali...there may be other biological differences differences between the dwarf castes than have been assumed. --------------------- From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke) Subject: Secret Stuff Message-ID: <940430094741_100270.337_BHL32-1@CompuServe.COM> Date: 30 Apr 94 09:47:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3860 Carl wrote: > I for one would like to get one example of a Secret Power to clarify > this. Some minor but significant god, say King Carmanos (revealed to > have one in the History of the Lunar Empire). If anyone works it out, write and let me know. I know a load of secrets *about* Carmanos, eponymous and deified First Shah of Carmania; I know his extinction as a deity meant there could be no more 'legitimate' Carmanian rulers in future (cf. the Blood Kings' Wars), as none of the Carmanian 'enthronement' rites would work any longer; but I don't know his "Secret Power" (or, indeed, his credit card number). Jim De Gon is right: the fourfold Indian caste system (three ruling Aryan castes over a suppressed native population) was one of my models for the Carmanians. But there is more mobility within the top three social classes than you'd get in a caste system: more like mediaeval Europe (you would train with the knights, study with the wizards, and take the career your father or lord determines for you). I greatly enjoyed reading Sandy's piece on the Vadeli, and am dumping most of my ideas here to complement them (I hope). The following notes are all extrapolations, and should be taken as MHO, not Gloranthan Truth: The Vadeli are related to the Brithini like Cain was to Abel. Now, never mention this to the Brithini, but "Zzabur, Brother of the Devil" is more properly written "Zzabur, Brother of Vadel"... The Vadeli know that a little bit of us lives on in our descendents, and have worked out ways of getting it back. Sandy has already mentioned the "material component" for the Vadeli Ritual of Immortality: a child. But if I'm right, it's got to be your own child... I use the Vadeli as a dumping ground for hysterical blood libels throughout the ages: several good sources. Anti-Semitic (Phoenicians and Carthaginians in traditional racist Ancient History [cf. Bernal's Black Athena, Biblical Molochs, and, e.g. Flaubert's Salammbo]; Jews, esp. the Christian myths of Saints Hugh of Lincoln and William of Norwich, and Chaucer's Prioress's Tale), anti-Christian (from Marcus Aurelius' era: "Thyestean banquets and Oedipidean intercourse"; the fun stuff in "Young Nur and the Warrior Girl" from the 1001 Nights), anti-Pagan (the forged "Donation of Constantine") or just plain nasty (Elizabeth Bathory). Then I mix in a chunk of the dirty, stinking Tleilaxu from Frank Herbert's later DUNE books, for tempting possibilities (ghola/clone/homunculi??), and leave to simmer gently... Sandy describes the traditional Kingdom of Ignorance. But what if Can Shu, the Glory of Ignorance, is in fact the insidious Doctor Fu Manchu, relying on propaganda like this to ensure that, whatever rumours of his nefarious master plans may be bruited abroad, everyone will dismiss them as "another nine days' wonder from the Kingdom of Ignorance"? Or maybe he just *thinks* he is? (I'm not serious, but it makes me wonder...) ==== Nick ==== "A brow like Jananin Heeraru, and a face like Wakboth"? --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: responses Message-ID: <9405010059.AA02291@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 30 Apr 94 12:59:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3861 Graeme L. opines: >Do the Malkioni believe that Chaos exists outside ... Glorantha? I :don't think they do, and this is my reasoning: >If the standard cosmology of central Genertela is accepted by the >Westerners, then one can logically posit a god greater than the IG. >This god created Chaos, which surrounds Glorantha and can apparently >destroy it. Of course, Western cosmology may not accept Chaos as >alien to Glorantha, but the product of its decay. Starting with this possible logic-process as a basis, here is my response/belief with regards to the Malkioni. I believe that the Rokari and the Hrestoli believe that Chaos comes from outside Glorantha, and that the Invislble God formed Glorantha either by reworking Chaos or possibly ex nihilo. However, I am convinced by this argument that the Borists believe that there IS another god equal to (or better than) the Invisible God, and that this other god rules chaos. Presumably the Borists believe that by tapping this other god's minions, they lessen its' power, and thus enhance the IGs. In addition, I now believe that the Galvosti believe that Chaos does NOT exist outside Glorantha, but rather that it comes as "a product of decay", exacerbated by the worship of false gods. Hence, the Galvosti feel that all non Malkioni are, if not actively Chaotic, at least Chaos-producing, which is why it's okay to Tap them. How do these reasoning processes sound? >What gender do the Malkioni assign to the IG? They're a male-dominated culture, so probably usually refer to the IG as "he", but I'm sure all of their educated members know that the IG is genderless. Joerg asks: >Why do you think Sog has gone into obscurity? The Waertagi surely >depend on his powers again, now they have learned Dormal's (not so) >Secret Power. I don't think Dormal has a true Secret Power. Just having a neato magic is not the same thing as a Secret Power. I think Sog has gone into obscurity because hardly anyone worships him, and he doesn't provide anything that you can't get elsewhere. There are mighty few Waertagi around, and I suspect they aren't wasting their time on Sog at the moment, but are sticking with more tried and true gods, such as Triolina, Magasta, etc. -- Sog was never more than a war god for them. >the Brithini who procreate also die horribly of old age. I don't recall seeing this anywhere. Procreation might cost the Brithini something (stats?), but I always figured their reluctance to do so was because of their basic selfishness. ZPG fans need not ct -- the differences between trying to raise a family in the crowded, complex, expensive USA or Europe, and in underpopulated Arolanit are immense. The pleasure of raising kids is bittersweet at best, and the emotional, financial, and physical costs of doing so large. I don't think a people trained to be isolated and unfeeling would like such a task. Bryan Maloney: Thanks for the discussion on genetic homology. I am gratified. As a "skin out" kind of biologist, it is useful to have quantitative confirmation of what seems obvious from an taxonomical, behavioral, and anatomical standpoint. Paul asks: >DO we mean Sapients (thinkers) or Sentients (feelers)? I used "Sentient" in the sloppy SF sense, in which it is generally used to indicate the exact same thing as "Sapient". >I do know that there is an Uz prohibition concerning eating >sapient beings (not corpses but live beings). I am unaware of such a prohibition. Certainly I know of many cases of trolls eating a leg, arm, buttock, etc. off a live human. Doesn't this count? There's even a Griselda story about it, not to mention the infamous troll kidnapper of Greg S's old campaign which ate all the limbs of his victim before the ransom finally arrived. Also, I know that trolls will happily eat zombies, which are technically not "dead" even after dismemberment. Sandy said: >>I believe the average stereotypic Carmanian ruling-type to >>be arrogant and sneering, Paul replies: >The Carmananian response: "So? What's your point?" >Actually they are very cultured people. I like them a lot. Me, too. I think they'd be fun not only to oppose but to play as PCs as well. Carl Fink sez: >Polygamy (I think you want "polygyny", actually) is just as >biological [as polyandry], in that it serves the "purpose" (I'm wary >of teleology) of giving the male more living offspring in the next >generation. Yes, but it benefits solely the male. Polygyny, when practiced under the conditions specified (marginal lands, overpopulation, and possibly brother-husbands), benefits both wife AND husband, and hence ends up benefiting the community as a whole. Polygamy only does so under very special circumstances which I won't go into here, because part of them have to do with my religious roots which I have no desire to lay out for all to see and pick at. --------------------- From: MOBTOTRM@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au Subject: Outta Stock! Message-ID: <01HBTPWPIOTM99F0IF@vaxc.cc.monash.edu.au> Date: 1 May 94 22:45:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3862 G'day - attention all Aussie ToTRM subbers: REACHING MOON MEGACORP merchandise: Orders have flooded in for the various items on offer! Please don't order either Lunar Coins or Report on the Fall of Boldhome as I am now ALL OUT! Copies of Report on the Fall of Boldhome are presently on their way here on a slow boat from the Mother Country. I will post them out once I receive the package. Copies of RQ Con Program Book and Rough Guide to Boldhome are still in the hold of the tramp steamer coming from New York. Again, I will post these orders out once I receive them. I've got the coins and will post them out to the lucky (and swift-replying ) subbers soon! Cheers MOB --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Cold polygamy; Motion Rune heroes & Chaos Message-ID: <199405010711.AA17373@radiomail.net> Date: 1 May 94 07:11:43 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3863 Nick Brook worried >that real-world polygamy crops up only in hot countries, but this >has always been a problem with Gloranthan climate (hairy Nordic barbarians >in the south, with Mediterranean/Middle Eastern empires to the north), so >I'm just going with the flow and ignoring the resulting "implausability". >Besides, the summers were hotter before the Moon... and you've got to have >something to do in the long, cold winters... While it was rare, the Celts sometimes took multiple wives. "The first wife is completely free from liability for anything she may do during the thirst three nights [after the concubine is introduced into the house], short of killing." [D. Binchy, quoted in Simon James _The World of the Celts_] Paul Reilly asserted >There are a lot of Orlanthi who flirt with Chaos, one >way or another - look at Sartar and Argrath for example. Can you expound on this? Sartar allied with the chaos-tainted Telmori, but that always seemed more political than mythical. And what did Argrath do?