From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 03 May 1994, part 3
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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Precedence: junk
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From: Mike.Dickison@vuw.ac.nz (Mike Dickison)
Subject: Runic Common Sense
Message-ID: <199405010025.AA07441@rata.vuw.ac.nz>
Date: 2 May 94 00:25:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3876
(Could you forward this please Henk)
Ducks with breasts???
Trolls as insects???
There is a tendency (which I suffer from too) to try and logically
extrapolate the organising power of the Runes far beyond common sense, and
then try to salvage your absurdities with biological/mythological ad hoc
handwaving.
Insects are Darkness creatures
Trolls have the Darkness rune
Therefore all trolls are insects
Female humans have breasts
Humans have the Man rune
Ducks and elves have the Man rune
Therefore female ducks and elves have breasts
Spot the flaws here?
Not all Darkness creatures are insects (eg; bats). Not all Earth creatures
are reptiles (eg: pigs). Not all Fire/Sky creatures are birds (eg: horses).
Orlanthi (and trolls) ARE allowed to keep chickens. Esrolians (and
Yelmalions) ARE allowed to raise cattle. Lunars can be coppersmiths, ducks
can worship storm gods, Dara Happans can beat a drum, and Mermen can wear
red. I think Glorantha gets less interesting and believeable, not more,
when societies become paint-by-numbers expressions of a few Runes.
I think the Man rune means two-arms-two-legs-and-a-brainy-head - Sapience
plus a humanoid shape. But the underlying stock should show through. Humans
and trolls have mammary glands because they're mammals (that's what the
word *means*). Ducks and elves don't because they're not. All four are
bipedal, with grasping hands, big brains, etc. And so what if this
contradicts all the pictures of busty female elves (let alone Elder
Secrets)? I'd rather shatter this soft-porn fantasy stereotype and make
male and female elves indistinguishable, alien and as ugly as sin :)
We should all try and break out of stereotypes, whether Terran or
Gloranthan, and use our imaginations.
Mike Dickison
====an adzebill is a big, extinct New Zealand bird that....oh never mind====
Mike Dickison adzebill@matai.vuw.ac.nz
Science writer/editor +64 (4) 384-1982 22 Devon St, Wellington, NZ
===="No biologically meaningful unit includes both Dickison and Presley"====
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From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: Invisible God and Arachnae Solara.
Message-ID: <9405021117.AA20624@Sun.COM>
Date: 2 May 94 23:22:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3877
>How so? Arachne Solara is one step closer to the woshippers than the
>Invisible God. She is in and of the Universe.
So is the Invisible God. It is described in one place as being the
laws that comprise reality. Can't get much closer to in and of the
universe than that. It is this immanent Invisible God that I compared
to Arachnae Solara, not the Creator, who would seem to be transcendant.
However there is a problem in my original reaction to Richard, in that
though the Malkioni worship the IG, they get little more directly out
of it than any Central Genertelan who sacrifices to Arachnae Solara.
--
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au
"I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard"
Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.
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From: devinc@aol.com
Subject: Re: RQ3 Character Package
Message-ID: <9405020534.tn45410@aol.com>
Date: 2 May 94 09:34:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3878
Devin Cutler here:
A while back, I offered to send some people a copy of my RQ3 character
package. Unfortunately, two things have prevented me:
1) I can't seem to e-mail an excel file via AOL or Compuserve to the Internet
2) My disk blew it, and erased the email addresses and names of the persons
who wished to get a copy
So, my offer still stands, however, it will have to be done by snail mail. I
am willing to pay for postage (including airmail to Europe or Australia)
assuming only a few poeple would like a copy.
Therefore, if you are interested in getting a copy of the character package,
please email me your snail mail address.
Thanks
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: dwarf biology and more
Message-ID: <9405021632.AA04001@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 2 May 94 04:32:57 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3879
DWARF BIOLOGY SPECULATIONS
So, what ARE the dwarfs? Many folks claim they're just "constructs",
but I feel that this is accepting of Dwarf propaganda. OK. We know
that dwarfs come in two sexes -- there are both females and males. I
also know (unpublished discussion w/Greg) that when it is time to
create new dwarfs, a female and a male retire to a secret chamber.
There they use "mortar and pestle", grinding away for hours until
they produce a new dwarf. It takes a looooong time to produce the
kid, too. I submit it is clear what the "mortar and pestle" are, and
I suggest that the lengthy time needed to produce the child is
connected with gestation, and probably early training.
For some reason, I'm convinced that dwarfs are born with
teeth, and if anyone else accepts this, it may mean that they are
precocious, able to eat and maybe walk at a very early age.
Now, (if I'm right) a dwarf could argue that it is still
artificial manufacture, it's just more convenient to carry the child
in an internal "flask". Still, it does somewhat blur the lines
between "manufacture" and "growth".
We also know that the dwarfs are perfectly capable of
manufacturing life: Jolanti, Gobblers, Nilmergs, and Gremlins all
spring to mind. I'm sure that they can produce a wide variety of
homunculi in their test tubes, and this may be how they produce
_some_ dwarfs, but perhaps not.
The dwarf mythology claims that the Mostali made other
Mostali, and ultimately made the dwarfs themselves, presumably
through the test-tube technique. I don't think there's very large
physical differences (at least initially) between dwarfs of different
castes. The whole mythology seems to make the point that dwarfs were
created because they were "cheaper" and more expendable than Mostali,
but that they were also more flexible, able to do any of the
Mostali's tasks. And, of course, when they reach the level of
Diamondwarf, they are presumably as good at their job as a Mostali
(unproven assumption on my part).
I believe that the dwarf castes are NOT hereditary. Instead,
I believe that as a dwarf child is raised to adulthood, the Gold
Dwarfs responsible for education do the dwarf equivalent of career
testing, and assign the young dwarf into that caste to which he or
she is best suited. I also don't think dwarfs retain any loyalty to
their parents or family.
How long is dwarf childhood? For that matter, how long are
elf or troll childhood?
Here is a biological question which I'm happy to speculate
on. Humans have a reallllyy looooong childhood, longer than almost
any other creature. (Though surpassed by a few -- like 17-year
locusts.) However, humans have a lot less preprogrammed learning
about their culture, language, etc. than most species. The long
growth time needed for a human is required mentally, NOT physically
-- there's plenty of animals that grow much faster than humans. A cow
is pretty damn impressive at two years old. Even gorillas reach
maturity at ten years, and they have a real complicated society to
learn about (compared to cows).
My opinion is that a troll child reaches adulthood a bit
faster than a human. Certainly a trollkin is adult at a much younger
age. I suggest that a uzko or uzdo is pretty much adult size at 13 or
so, when humans are entering puberty. The enlo I think are mature at
6-8, which may be one of the reasons they're so small in size (their
bones harden and close off younger). I also think that the troll
language of Darktongue is, to some extent, hardwired into the troll
biology.
However, trolls are closer to human biologically than dwarfs
or elves. I believe that dwarfs mature very quickly -- their tool
skill and affinity for devices is innate, not learned, and a dwarf
might be fully mature physically at a year or less. Of course, he or
she is probably not considered to be a fully mature dwarf in the
society until at least 90% in some skill.
I'm not sure about elves. I think almost all of their
society, language, even cult proclivities, are instinctive, not
learned. Well, maybe "instinctive" is a bad word to use with a plant
-- let's call it a "tropism" instead. I know that elves give "birth"
to seeds, not children. I picture these as large, coconut-sized
things. I also know that these seeds can be stored for years
(presumably in a "cool, dry place"), and only planted when the elves
feel a need to get more children. My mental image of this is a plant
that rapidly sprouts into a large fruit which, when split open,
produces a miniature adult, who grows rapidly in size until he
reaches adulthood.
It is my firm belief that ducks and keets lay eggs, which
they must incubate in a nest until they hatch. My reasons for so
believing are solely based on the comic possibilities of such an
arrangement ("Please, sir, could you hold the egg for me while I go
shopping.") I also believe that female ducks must have breasts, once
more solely for the humor inherent in such an image. This is also why
Greg and I concur that ducks have teeth (so they can grin). After
all, if your ducks aren't funny, why have them at all?
Nicky Brooke mentioned:
>The Vadeli are related to the Brithini like Cain was to Abel.
Which one is Cain? Another thought -- maybe they are not
Cain/Abel, but Cain/Seth; which brings up the question of who
"Abel's" descendents might have been (or are). Perhaps the Cain
member of the brothers crippled the Abel brother, and his kids are,
say Veldang, or Ducks, or something.
>The Vadeli know that a little bit of us lives on in our descendents,
>and have worked out ways of getting it back.
I like this a lot.
Alex Ferguson asks:
>What was the Dawn Age population of Peloria? (Third age = 6
>million.)
Whatever you need for your campaign. It's undergone enough
trauma to be whatever size you need. If you need historical evidence
to back up your theories, note that China's population declined
during major parts of the 18th and 19th centuries, so up, up, up is
NOT the only direction that population travels. The Gbaji,
Dragonkill, and Sheng Seleris Wars are heap plenty to have cut back
the pop to 6 mil from a higher number if you wish, or you can point
to the benefits of a good climate and many benign gods (Oslir,
Dendara, etc.) to have allowed the pop to have climbed _up_ from
whatever lower number you wish.
>What approximate proportion of the male populace of the following
>areas worship: a) Yelm; b) other solar deities; c) Lodril (or close
>relatives).
Okay, here's my own opinion. But remember that local
conditions can always override anything I say here (for instance, the
Carmanians and Orlanthi areas wouldn't be like this).
Also, what does the (b) category cover? Mastakos? Ourania?
Presumably Lodril includes the Lowfires and Dendara, right?
i) Cities in Dara Happa proper.
Yelm: 5-20%
Other Solar Deities: 10-70%
Lodril & co.: 10-30% (mostly immigrants)
ii) Other Pelorian cities.
Yelm: 1-5%
Other Solar Deities: 30-50%
Lodril & co.: 30-50%
iii) Rural areas of D. H.
Yelm: 5-10%
Other Solar Deities: 10-70%
Lodril & co.: 30-60%
iv) Rural areas elsewhere in Peloria.
Yelm: 1-10%
Other Solar Deities: 5-10%
Lodril & co.: 80-95%
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From: staats@MIT.EDU (Richard C. Staats)
Subject: Invisible God
Message-ID: <9405021543.AA18542@MIT.EDU>
Date: 2 May 94 16:43:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3880
Greetings!
I wanted to respond to Joerge Baumgartner's question about
Arachne Solara and the Invisible God. I do not think the Invisible God
is a fake, but in fact, the Invisible God is a vehicle for the worship
of Arachne Solara. The Invisible God in my own campaign is a pivotal
entity. The Mostali, who live most securely of all races within the
comforting embraces of Arachne Solara, worship the Invisible God. I
also hold that all sorcerers/resses actually invoke the power of the
Invisible God when they ply their trade. Being that the Invisible God
is a link between Arachne Solara, who cannot be worshipped directly by
mortals, and the inhabitants of Glorantha, the Invisible God is more
affected by the advent of Time than other deities. Likewise, the
practice of sorcery in its current form is intimately linked with the
passage of Time and entropy.
Off to a committee meeting!
Wish me luck!
In service,
Rich
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From: akuma@netcom.com (Steven E Barnes)
Subject: Carmania
Message-ID: <199405021941.MAA25189@netcom.com>
Date: 2 May 94 05:41:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3881
From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
>Alex, I'm working on the history of Carmania for eventual publication by
>Chaosium (we hope). There have been a few leaks and spin-offs so far; there
>will be more at Convulsion, I expect. "Evil", "nasty", "oppressive", etc.
>are fair enough as descriptions of the ruling Carmanians (or of any other
>"nobility") at their worse times. There were bright patches in between
>(pre-Lunar Carmanian history spans some five centuries, not monotonously),
>and they did develop a unique hybrid culture from which the Lunar Way grew.
>In fact, Carmanian culture is (and remains) one of two major links between
>Malkionism and the Lunar Empire (the other being the Arrolian city-states,
>of course). Which answers someone else's question about the Lunar Way and
>how/why the Malkioni might perceive it:
Can you elaborate on this relationship? Also, I'm having a bit of
trouble figuring out how this Carmanian Light / Dark dualism is
supposed to work. I haven't found much information about Zoroastorism
looking in bookstores, and I'm not sure which Gloranthan pantheon is
involved. I'm very tempted to use the Dara Happan pantheon described
in GRoY, since they can be divided easily between Light and Dark gods.
(Reminds me of a joke from an old campaign: "A Lite god? Have you
ever *tried* a Lite god?")
> Paul Reilly here.
>
>> I'm basing it on the fine discussions re: Carmania here on
>>the Net! My own treatment of Carmania in mine own campaign is going
>
> THanks. (As originator of a LOT of material... do people want more Carmanian
>stuff on the Daily? I was waiting until the Carmanian interest group
>had hashed out more of a consensus before posting a lot...)
YES!
-steve
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From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Yelmalio Query
Message-ID: <940502202604_100102.3001_BHJ54-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 2 May 94 20:26:04 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3882
Hi folks,
I would like to ask you opinions.
What would a Yelmalion feel about binding/controlling a Salamander? I cannot
find it explicitly stated that they cannot/may not but since Yelmalio lost his
Fire rune to Zorak Zoran and the cult will not, therefore, teach Ignite,
Fireblade, Sunspear and the like...
I rather felt that there is no prohibition but that it is 'bad form' to do such
a thing. And in a society as conformist as, say, Sun County, it would just not
occur.
Any thoughts?
Ta,
Peter
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From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Various things
Message-ID: <199405030500.NAA16257@melomys.cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 3 May 94 05:01:37 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3883
>
> One can live in a city without being initiated into its God, at least,
> I believe, in most cases. cf. "Pavis residents" in RoC. Note that
> requirements to remain initiated to a city god aren't very onerous,
> in any case.
>
Indeed you can, though refusing to become even a lay member might be a little
antagonistic (but the Pavis cult writeup suggests that lay members tithes are
pretty much the same as city taxes, which makes refusing to join more an
economic than a religious question)
Becoming an initiate (at least in the Pavis Cult) is the same as
becoming a citizen, and represents a commitment to continued living in the
city, and gives teh benefits of more active involvement n city affairs. I do
not think that this is the sort of commitment that the city requires of all
who dwell in it - in fact the Pavis cult writeup implies that they are fairly
selective - they only want citizens who have the cities best interests at heart
so you must be approved by the priests.
>
RE: Vadeli
> The Vadeli are related to the Brithini like Cain was to Abel. Now, never
> mention this to the Brithini, but "Zzabur, Brother of the Devil" is more
> properly written "Zzabur, Brother of Vadel"...
>
I rather like this idea. And of course both sides will have legends that
give a different version of the story (in much the same way as Cain would
have you beleive that he was cast out for refusing to offer live sacrifice).
In fact even if this story turns out to be untrue according to Greg
I am still going to make it a common folk belief, if not part of the official
word of Malkion.
>
Re: Malkioni schisms
> Rokari and the Hrestoli believe that Chaos comes from outside
> Glorantha, and that the Invislble God formed Glorantha either by
> reworking Chaos or possibly ex nihilo.
>
Fair enough. I see the Rokari/Hrestoli churches as being basically fairly
similar in theology, but different in application and in allegiance (similar
to the Sunni Shi'ite split). Of course, the real difference is that the
Rokari are fairly secular (the nobles run the place, and the King has more
authority than the Bishop), while the Hrestioli are a nation of religious
fanatics, IMHO. Note that every ruler must have served time in the church.
I think also that their knightly orders are much like the fighting orders
ofthe Church, the Knights Templar or Hospitallar.
> However, I am convinced by this argument that the Borists
> believe that there IS another god equal to (or better than) the
> Invisible God, and that this other god rules chaos. Presumably the
> Borists believe that by tapping this other god's minions, they lessen
> its' power, and thus enhance the IGs.
>
Which makes the Borists true dualists, like the Zoroastrians. Which is no
doubt vilest heresy, and probably the real reason why they are hated and
suppressed. Of course, the suppression occurred some years ago, so they are
now no more actively suppressed than (say) 19th century Cathars would have
been. After all,the Church has got the much bigger and more current Hrestoli
schism to worry about.
> In addition, I now believe that the Galvosti believe that
> Chaos does NOT exist outside Glorantha, but rather that it comes as
> "a product of decay", exacerbated by the worship of false gods.
> Hence, the Galvosti feel that all non Malkioni are, if not actively
> Chaotic, at least Chaos-producing, which is why it's okay to Tap
> them.
>
Carrying on the dualist theme, it is possible that either the Galvosti or
the Brithini actually do not believe that the Invisible God created the world,
but that the Invisible God created souls, and the Devil trapped the souls
within the world. the Brithini believe that the world is torment and chaos,
and to bring children into the world is evil, and that our mission on Earth
is to make it as much like the original heaven of the Kingdom of Logic. The
Galvosti believe that the world is an illusion, and that the truth of Malkion
is the only truth.
Just ideas that I am floating around to see if anyone likes them.
There is a strong thread of anti-worldly thought even in the Rokari (witness
the Wizards calls against drinking, sex, gluttony), and having some of the
schisms take this to extremes and connect it with the anti-chaos beliefs
sounds like a nice idea - I also dislike having Chaos be too central an
element in their theology, it seems too stereotypical fantasy, making them
too much like a Moorcock style Church of Law. It also makes a good contrast
with the various Henotheist churches, which all basically see at least parts of
the worldly experience as a good thing. The only problem that I see with this
is that it is a bit too much like the real world Cathars/Albigensians/
Manichaeists, but even that is not a problem - for a start I am sure that we
give it some interesting twists (such as the Brithini desire to take the world
back to before the Great Darkness, before Death was real), and having the
generally much more powerful Brithini take on beliefs similar to the much
less powerful historically.
Actually, what we really want to do is work out the central tenets
of each faith ( a la Credo) and then have the rest a subject of theological
debate within the Church.
Cheers
Dave Cake
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