Bell Digest v940504p3

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 04 May 1994, part 3
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From: john.hughes@anu.edu.au (John P Hughes)
Subject: I don't know yet
Message-ID: <9405040419.AA08099@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 4 May 94 19:18:22 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3899

YAM OGNAHCROP EHT ROTATUM, TNECIFINEB DOG FO CINORTCELE 
NOITACINUMMOC, SSELB, TSOP DNA REVILED SIHT COD... 
(H%$^$#DJH%#

Howdy folks,

Some serious issues again this week - Levels of Gloranthan 'Reality', 
Godlearners, Tricksters and polygamous marriage. Please excuse my 
subtext of slightly manic 'humour'. After all, I've just attempted to 
read and make sense of a full week's download of the initiation 
debate all at once! 

I'm a little out of phase with discussions. These days. I log in once a week, 
download, take it home, read it, respond blindly err think carefully 
about the replies. Have patience.

LUNARS DO IT WEEKLY
SARTARITES DO IT IN CLANS
LHANKOR MHY DO IT BY CANDLELIGHT
HUMAKTI DO IT WITH A FIRM HAND
ISSARIES DO IT ANYWHERE
CHALANNA ARROYS DO IT EVER SO GENTLY
UZ DO IT IN THE DARK
SUN DOMERS DO IT IN COLUMNS
SOLARS DON'T DO IT
STORM BULLS DON'T KNOW ABOUT IT 
&
ULERIANS JUST DO IT

There. Did I get it out of my system? Well, unfortunately not.

*** IMPORTANT PREAMBLE: ON EXPLORING GLORANTHA

Looking back over the last few months, I've noticed a familiar 
pattern emerging in Digest discussion. In exploring aspects of the 
old lozenge, we often slip back and forth between different levels of 
'Gloranthan' reality, acting according to the level we're most 
familiar with, or perhaps in the faith that all the levels somehow 
mesh. The most familiar shifting occurs when to trying to reconcile 
RQ rules with what we know of Gloranthan society from other 
sources. There are others.

Now perhaps I'm a cynic and of little faith, but I like to draw 
distinctions as to what 'level' I'm discussing. I see at least four 
fairly distinct and (IMHO) ultimately unreconcilable levels of 
Gloranthan 'reality'. If each is a 'map', let me list them in terms of 
smaller and smaller 'scales'.

GLORANTHA AS COMBAT-SIMULATION (COMBAT REALITY)

This is mostly behind us, thank Urox, but it is still apparent every 
now and again, even on the Digest. Roleplaying began using this 
paradigm, and even now several of the more errr popular fantasy 
games focus on it as their prima causa. On this level, cults are 
sources of spells and enemies, and most 'roleplaying' situations are 
abstracted to dice rolls. Its the world of skill checks and loot, 'Us & 
Them' and unthinking NPCs.

A few RQ scenarios operate mainly at this level.

GLORANTHA AS DERIVED FROM RQ RULES (RQ-DERIVED REALITY)

The RQ rules, whatever we feel about them, were derived to 
simulate certain aspects of reality (adventures) for a particular 
class of being (adventurers) for a particular purpose (rip-roaring 
entertainment). They do this well. They WERE NOT however, 
designed to simulate large scale social, environmental or magical 
effects. 

In my experience, most campaign and convention players and 
published modules operate at this level. Certain of the more 
'absurd' Gloranthan phenomena (cult membership rules, initiation, 
certain spells) were derived for and work only at this level.

GLORANTHA AS A LITERARY CREATION (LITERARY REALITY)

This is where Glorantha began. Most rpgs don't have this level to 
deal with - even the companies that print game-derived 'novels' 
produce linear little adolescent fantasies where you can usually tell 
when the dice are being rolled. The major exception is Middle Earth, 
and like Glorantha it pre-existed the game.

At this level, you can suspend game rules or invoke 'meta-rules' for 
a given effect (e.g. the submission guidelines for 'Heroes of the 
King') without having to universalise the consequences. It presents 
a different reality to the game derived-set, but still has holes that 
aren't important to the immediate events and so are rightfully 
ignored. However, it takes considerable pains to provide a detailed 
and consistent view, and takes detail and colour down to the 
activities of everyday life. This view explicitly or implicitly plays 
with our own world experience for irony or contrast. It quite 
rightly allows exaggeration and distortion for entertainment and 
effect.

KOS is the best example of this level. A few scenarios can work at 
this levels, mainly ones where you can leave the dice behind. There 
seems to be a growing concensus that Heroquest has to work at this 
level.

GLORANTHA AS A CLOSED, FULLY-FUNCTIONING WORLD 
(GLORANTHAN REALITY)

In this model, Glorantha exists as a 'real' world. Actions have 
consequences far beyond game or literary phenomena, and need to 
be systematically recorded and explored. Gloranthan societies have 
a structure and function, similar to terran societies but operating 
according to the nature of Gloranthan reality and mythologic. Our 
preconceptions and biases as explorers have to be made explicit as 
well.

You have to be pretty committed and extremely warped to operate 
at this level. You do not so much play the game as take holidays in 
Alda-chur. Most Digest explorations attempt to operate at this level. 
I attempt to operate at this level. Spooky. 

And if you try to work on this level, there are the emic ('within-
the-culture') maps to deal with as well. How do you describe 
Gloranthan 'reality'? The GodLearner mindset, the shamanic 
consciousness mindset (my preferred vice), the 'True Reality' 
mindset etc.

__________

The difficulty in reconciling these levels may explain why there 
have been so few published scenarios in the past fifteen years, why 
they seem to concentrate on combat, and why so few have that 
uniquely Gloranthan 'feel'. 

My main reason in bringing this up is to make the comment that RQ 
rules will break down at lower/higher levels of detail, as will any 
'map' or simulation. The cult and magic rules are especially fragile. 
(Of course, cult writeups are GodLearner documents, and so should 
be treated with a healthy contempt). I especially think it is 
unprofitable to vacillate in discussion between different levels. 
Choose the one most profitable for your purposes and go for it. 
Don't worry or complain if it breaks down at other levels, and 
DON"T TRY TO CONSTRUCT ELABORATE RECONCILIATIONS. And 
make clear in your posts which level you are operating on.

Comments? Flames? Contact numbers for a good therapist?

Having said that, I don my electronic pith helmet and submit this 
week's report from the field. Have faith, the answer is immanent!
 
*** TRICKSTERS

SOCIETIES need tricksters, whether it' s Eurmal or Prometheus or 
Coyote or Lenny Bruce or Johnny Rotten. While Alex's idea of 
Tricksters worshipping together has some intriguing scenario 
possibilities, it also strikes me as somewhat odd. (Imagine a nation's 
political comedians locking themselves away together). While the 
Trickster is a solitary figure, his role is a very necessary SOCIAL 
one. I would see a clan trickster's main role as being part of major 
pantheon ceremonies, almost a cult 'hero' (pet? valuable captive?) 
of the ruling deity rather than a separate cult. (Then again, I'm big 
on pantheon worship). An Eurmali on a leash during Orlanth temple 
ceremonies? It would certainly make sermons less boring.

As I suggest in the Alda-chur Flame Festival post, there will be 
certain times when an entire community will surrender to the rule 
of the Trickster. And Sacred Time ceremonies are one universal 
example of pantheon and even inter-pantheon combined worship 
and ceremony.

Some unpublished stuff I have on Trickster notes the following:

"... At first Trickster was mischievious, but harmless.... The growing 
confusion of the Gods Wars made Trickster's impact more 
widespread. His jokes changed the world, and many fearful gods 
blamed their problems upon him. He became the scapegoat for the 
problems of the world, and from that time everyone began to hate, 
fear, and despise him. One time Vadrus chopped him up and fed 
him to chickens... Trickster became disgusted with the hypocrisy of 
the world and vowed that it deserved to be destroyed. He became 
Eurmal the Destroyer, and set upon a deliberate path to assist the 
demise of the universe. His most critical actions were to facilitate 
the discovery, use, and continued reuse of Death. 

The second age saw .... the construction of The Temple of United 
Eurmal. This was a collection of all known Trickster shrine types, so 
trickster priests could obtain all Trickster rune spells at one 
place....The idea of a world-wide "Cult of Trickster" is laughable, and 
is the imposition of God Learner thinking, not internal organization. 
The Trickster religion is an illusion. It does not exist in any 
formalized sense."

Trickster is certainly a murderer. To again quote the notes; 
"Trickster despatched many other beings. Some were by accident, 
as when he made the House of Horvanglos collapse. Sometimes it 
was necessary, as when he ate all of the red headed women of the 
Pamaltela grasslands. Sometimes it was for vengeance, as when he 
slew Little Zorangos who insulted Trickster's mother. Sometimes it 
was for fun, as when he burnt the trade fleets of Moskatall and 
Sigtrigor."	

GODLEARNERS

From: argrath@aol.com

** John said further: "'Cept of course Protestants said
** reality was absolute, and its OUT THERE, while
** the GLs said its fluid, and its IN HERE."

* I don't agree with this.  I think the God-Learners
* were modernists, and believed they were getting
* to that Core Reality through scientific rationalism. 
* (Thanks to Peter Michaels, for pointing this out to me.)

I was a bit cheeky with this, because what the GLs really believed 
is a BIG SECRET, and all we can have are our own opinions. I was 
wondering who'd jump. OK Martin, it's me and you :-). So what is 
this Core Reality? And where do I get the T-shirt?

I would classify the GLs as SCIENTISTIC rather than scientific in 
their thinking. They were deductionists rather than inductionists, 
and, practiced a pseudo-science because they never appreciated or 
tested the limits of Falsification.  (Of course, since my model of 
Gloranthan reality is that of shamanic consciousness, I'm not sure 
that Falsification is possible on the Other Side - shit happens if you 
believe that shit happens). Their greatest successes were with the 
anti-chaos pantheons, but their principles/models made little 
headway with draconic, Pamaltean, Grower, Maker or Hsunchen 
myth worlds. The effects of their experiments (i.e Goddess Switch), 
also seem to indicate they were unable to predict the outcome of 
their experiments or modify their models - a failing which led to 
the Eight New Manifestations. I'd say more, but I suspect the Digest 
mail server is a Gift Carrier of the Sending Gods! :-)

I believe the GLs were more like Christian theologians than 
inductivist empiricists: theologians compiling and comparing their 
sometimes contradictory proof texts, arriving at some kind of 
untestable synthesis, and then suddenly being confronted with the 
wider discourses of other world religious systems. We all know 
what a crock the GL cult write ups are.

Of course, I accept that on the literary level (see above) the GLs are 
an ironic sendup/criticism of modernist empirical thinking and its 
dangers.

Perhaps most tellingly, I think Greg's attitude to the GLs comes 
pretty directly from Joseph Campbell, and is intended as a lesson in 
what happens if you try to manipulate myths scientistically rather 
than from an involved  cultural perspective. (Prospective 
Heroquesters take note! - "no questing without respect and 
humility".) To quote Big Jo:

"Whenever myths are living symbols, the mythologies are teeming 
dream-worlds of such images. But whenever systematising 
theologians have appeared and gained the day* (the tough-minded 
in the gardens of the tender) the figures have become petrified into 
propositions. Mythology is misread then as direct history or science, 
symbol becomes fact, metaphor dogma, and the quarrels of the 
sects arise, each mistaking its own symbolic signs for the ultimate 
reality  the local vehicle for its timeless, ineffable tenor." 
'Primitive Man as Metaphysician', in 'Flight of the Wild Gander', pg 
73.

* i.e. the GodLearners, comparative anthropology, most christian 
theology, certain Digest discussions. Of course, Campbell can have 
his cake and eat it too: this statement can be read as a direct 
criticism of his famous 'mono-myth'.

CONTINUED IN PART TWO, PORCHANGO WILLING...