From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 04 May 1994, part 4 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: john.hughes@anu.edu.au (John P Hughes) Subject: Part 2 of ravings - marriage Message-ID: <9405040424.AA08268@cscgpo.anu.edu.au> Date: 4 May 94 19:23:02 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3900 *** TIMELESS MYSTERY <^==@ /\ /\ Is this a rune, mating ducks or what? *** SEX, POLYGAMY, POLYGYNY, POLYANDRY AND MARRIAGE (SPPPAM) Martin gave us something to think about with polygamy, though from a very western viewpoint. I'd like to make a few general comments concerning Terran then Gloranthan marriage. First of all, we have to chuck out our C20 western notions of love, romance and marriage. The western myth of marriage is different to the western reality (serial monogamy and single parent families), and both are fairly unique cross-culturally. Romance and 'twue love' is a recent western invention, and personal attraction has little or nothing to do with marriage in most cultures. (The Chinese say: 'why wait until the water is boiling to put it on the stove?') We must also be careful not to confuse sex and marriage. Also, there is no generally accepted anthropological definition of marriage - too many variations, too many different strategies; and many anthropologists believe it futile to attempt such. Even within a single culture, a definition should encompass the complex interplay of sexual, economic, legal, political and symbolic elements. Western marriages are also unusual in that they are the focus of primary relationships, and so bear MORE PRESSURE and GREATER INTENSITY than most. In societies with extended families, large numbers of children and separate male and female domains, things are generally a little more relaxed. I am sceptical of any too literal reading of sociobiological data on mating for information on human marriage. Yes, there is a correlation between environment, land use and mating/marriage patterns, but these elements are further transformed by the symbolic and ritual capacities of the human mind. Different marriage types often exist in the same environmental area. In the broadest sense, marriage is about allocating 'bundles' of rights and relationships into different 'packages'. Elements present in most marriages include an agreement between groups (perhaps for future marriages) and a transfer or flow of rights - work services, sexual access, children, property, hunting or planting rights etc. It's always two-way, so when you ask, "What is being transferred here?" you must also ask, "What balances it?" Also, be careful to remember the female side of the equation: marriage grants a woman rights, sexual and otherwise, over her husband. In most marriages, sexual rights are usually NOT exclusive. In Murdoch's cross-cultural survey, 63% of cultures surveyed sanctioned extra-marital relations of some kind. If a partner dies prematurely, many cultures will replace him or her with a close relative. (Remember, most forms of marriage are a relationship between groups, not individuals). The most common forms of replacement are called levirate (where the brother of a deceased husband will marry the wife), and sororate (where the sister of a deceased wife will marry the husband). Also divorce rates vary widely from culture to culture. Marriage is a process as much as an event. The obligations between the two groups concerned may continue after the death of both partners. There will be opening exchanges, engagement and marriage exchanges, first child exchanges etc. Often a marriage becomes legally binding only after the conception or birth of the first child. POLYGYNY (ONE WIFE, MANY HUSBANDS) Polygyny on earth is associated with areas where the most important resources are human resources (i.e. human labour). Despite Martin's assertion, the main problems associated with polygyny have to do with access to resources, relative power, and conflicts concerning children rather than sexual jealousy. And despite the more purient fantasies of some males, you can forget the sheik/harem model. The strongest bonds are frequently between the co-wives, rather than husband and wife. In fact, many cultures practice sororal polygyny, where sisters all marry the same husband. Now if the gender split is roughly 50/50, you have to ask where all these extra wives come from. Well, polygyny is usually associated with a large age difference between partners: older men have several wives; younger men have none. Effectively, there is a male underclass. Polygyny also correlates to a high incidence of (young) males dying in war or raiding - of course, this might be cause or effect! Surprisingly, it also correlates to a high incidence of witchcraft accusations (which is different to a high incidence of witchcraft). Jealousy DOES seem to be the cause here, but it's frustrated young men taking it out on older men and their (unobtainable) wives. You might also obtain extra wives through abduction and rape, but I don't think anyone would want to build pc Gloranthan societies based on this. (see below). POLYANDRY (ONE WIFE, SEVERAL HUSBANDS) Despite some feminist rhetoric, polyandry on terra is NOT associated with matralineal descent (tracing descent through women) nor a high status for women. (This is the reason I didn't posit polyandry among the matralineal Doraddi, a culture where women do possess high status and much power. Still Doraddi women enjoy sexual freedom, cause sex ain't marriage). The reason for this becomes apparent when one ask where the 'extra' men come from. It turns out to be not a surplus of men but an artificial shortage of women. Sadly, polyandry correlates with female infanticide (the murder of female children). Both polyandry and infanticide seem to exist mainly as a form of population control in marginal environments. It is relatively uncommon on terra: one of the anthropological problems has been to identify whether instances of 'polyandry' are really situations where the husband 'loans' the sexual services of his wife to other men, i.e. where the woman does not control her sexuality. The most common form is adelphic polyandry, where a group of brothers marry a single woman. As Pam noted, the custom is concentrated in Nepal and parts of India. MARRIAGE IN GLORANTHA OK. Marriage takes different forms on earth mainly for economic/resource reasons, not sexual experimentation. Marriage is about two groups meeting, and only secondarily about the union of individuals. The mother-child bond is an almost universal constant, but other than that almost anything is possible. We have terran examples of marriages where husband and wife never meet, of 'ghost marriages' where a woman's children are recognised as belonging to a long dead husband, of heterosexual woman-to-woman marriages where the children conceived by the 'wife' are socially credited as being children of the (socially powerful) female 'father', celibate marriage, homosexual marriage, child marriage. All of these are possible in Glorantha, as well as certain manifestations unknown on earth. How about marriage to a spirit or dead ancestor, with voluntary or involuntary possession for the fathering of children? Just how DOES magic affect sex, fertility and marriage in a given Gloranthan culture ? TOTRM #6 and #11 will set you thinking, whether or not you agree with the examples and conclusions. Is androgeny taboo, even if homosexuality is not? Are transvestites automatically tricksters? Surely contraceptive magic or herbs are readily available, one of the reasons for the relative freedom of women in most Gloranthan societies. What exactly CAN Uleria do? What is the effect of a weekly lunar cycle on fertility, or do Gloranthan women become fertile only at certain times of the year? Sea Season? Can they consciously decide when they wish to be fertile (wouldn't that be nice for all concerned?) Could a woman say, promise her services to a warrior god for a certain number of years, and then automatically conceive through the intervention of a fertility goddess of the same pantheon? Can parted couples meet in spirit form? Can a woman's sister bear her children for her if she decides on the warrior path? What about couvade among humans? If spirit essence is as important as genes, what effect does this have on parenthood? In previously discussing these issues with Greg, a few points have come up. Glorantha is generally not the place for the worst aspects of patriarchy to manifest (recall Sandy's comment on Greg vetoing strongly patriarchal societies in Pamaltela). In most Gloranthan societies, women and men are regarded as different though equal. There are powerful female role models of all types among the divinities. Powerful magics reinforce women's special powers and responsibilities. (The daughters of Genert cover just about everything...) In other discussions, Greg has mentioned that Gloranthan's enjoy and respect sex too much to engage in the mutilations practised by various peoples on earth. And of course Glorantha has matriarchies! Earth, on currently available evidence, has not, and never has, despite lots of wishful thinking and contemporary myth-making. (Please note carefully what I'm saying: we have examples of matraliny (lots!) we have archaeological examples of highly visible goddess/female principle worship (lots!), we have examples of cultures where the relationships between men and women are respectful and fairly equal (unfortunately, not so lots). None of these are the same as a matriarchy. Most supporting evidence for matriarchies comes from historical myths and optimistic interpretation of archaeological evidence, and are far from conclusive. This is my own academic caution here, I'd like to think we have had matriarchies, and so might have variations on them again, but I don't see any evidence. With Glorantha, we have an opportunity to build and explore a matriarchy and see how it works! (It will be far different than the reverse image of a patriarchy). This is an exciting opportunity. Not that Glorantha is some kind of gender paradise, far from it. For example, GRAY portrays a strong undercurrent in Solar mythology against women - they believe that men and women are not the same and are not equal. (In the First People myth, it is stated that women have less FLAME than men - roll POW on 2d6?!?!?). GRAY portrays stodgy misogynistic Light Priests, fearful of pollution and women and bodies and change, longing for a Solar womb that is eternally denied them. It suggests that the entire Yelmic religion is neurotic, longing for Oneness, longing for a return to a masculine womb that can never be. It has no imagination for change or for different approaches. It is afraid to grow, afraid to change, and incidentally, afraid of the feminine principle. Enough on the Solars. Wouldn't it be nice to take the wider portrayal of mutual power and respect seriously, as well as the magical possibilities, and explore some of the implications, stead of bitchin' about relative strength or sulking about Babeesta Gor's cute gal-only spells? The topic of fertility and marriage has barely been touched, but it's pretty fundamental to everything Gloranthan. Over to you, folks. John. --------------------- From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Thing Message-ID: <199405030743.AA10834@rimfaxe.diku.dk> Date: 3 May 94 11:43:52 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3885 A few days ago, Joerg Baumgartner wrote that Orlanthi clans are democratic with Icelandic things. Make up your mind. What do you want, democracy or an Icelandic thing? You can't have both. Klaus O K --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Sailing traders Message-ID:Date: 3 May 94 08:08:55 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3886 Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3865 > Joerg: >> I have a Hendriki boy, son of a family of crafters, wanting >> to become a sailor. I told him to do so, he would have to go with his >> uncle who does the trading of his family's products, and via Issaries >> initiation (at home) and Dormal initiation (on board) he'd become a >> Holy Country sailor. > Why Issaries? I think very few sailors would join his cult, as Dormal > also serves a Communication purpose. The story is about this: The father has inherited the weaver's business in Jaransbyrig, and his (younger) brother had to find himself another related trade. He (the boy's uncle) chose to become a trader to further the profit of the family business. In doing so he would purchase spun wool in the interior of Heortland, bring it to his brother's workshop or other textile-workers, and then sell it at the great marketplaces of the Holy Country, foremost of which are Karse and Nochet where the Handra-going merchant ships land. The boy has no inclination whatever to work at the loom, so he helped his uncle already early, and accompanied him also on a short sea voyage to Nochet. This voyage made him want to become a sailor. To break the news to his parents and temple, he decided it would be appropriate to become trader (which was possible at home) and sailor. > You mean his parents are weavers, or merchants? If the later, one presumes > they're members of some Malkioni(sed) merchant class, likely including an > element of Issaries worship. His uncle is an Aeolian with St. Issaries as patron Saint, yes. So is the boy (now), at home. Additionally he took St. Dormal as a patron for his sea voyages. I didn't charge extra POW sacrifice. >> But a male Orlanthi, even if he >> is a town dweller, couldn't really be expected to worship a handmaiden >> of Ernalda (one of these would be the weaver) as primary deity. > If he's an actual weaver, I think he probably would. This would, after all, > be "women's work" to hard-line Orlanthi, but urbanised people are likely > to be more flexible regarding traditional gender roles. A more sophisticated > weaving "industry" might redefine distinct stages (carding, spinning, weaving, > etc.) of the process to be appropriate tasks for each gender, assigning them > to the province of Orlanth Maker, Voriof, or an aspect of Ernalda or Asrelia > accordingly. Orlanth Maker: This sounds like a God Learner construct to me. Of all ruling deities I know, Glorantha or Earth, very few qualify as crafters - right now I can only think about Lugh Lamfadha, and - rather far fetched - Pamalt Necklace-maker. I view Orlanth much as the tribal chief who has his retainers for such tasks, and who plows mainly to please his wife, now and then. > Regarding the son, I would say he wouldn't necessarily join his parents' > religion if they knew and approved of his wish to become a sailor: he could > have been sponsored by, apprenticed to, or conceivably fostered by his > uncle or other likely patron to enable him to join the necessary cult(s). Being caring parents, they wanted him initiated where his family lives, and the uncle could sponsor him mainly for St. Issaries at the local temple. There is a small shrine to St. Dormal, but that is mainly there for completeness' sake, and to honor the heroquester who overcame Zzabur's curse, not the sailor. And to be honest: Dormal's spell "predict weather" is one of the most superfluous spells in GoG when an initiation into the cult of Orlanth gives the same effect as this 2-point divine spell permanently, at the cost of 1 POW and a bit tithing. I bet that in Karse or Nochet Dormal is one of Orlanth's associates as well, and that the extra duties fall flat. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Vadeli (aren't the bad guys, just get bad Brithini press) Message-ID: <9405031318.AA10300@Sun.COM> Date: 3 May 94 12:54:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3887 Hi ALL I have some comments about the Vadeli which stem from those published here by Sandy and Nick... 1) My Vadeli source claimed that they did cooperate with ALL the other races in the I fought We won. However, Zzabur struck down the Noble Blue Vadeli from behind while he was devoting all his awesome powers to fighting Chaos. Thus, Chaos is greater than it might have been and there are no Blue Vadeli. But, the Noble spirit of the Blue Vadeli was not crushed by the EVIL Black Magic of Zzabur (who stole his skin to cover his Blue Book). Even now, his spirit is fighting its way back to the world to be reborn so that the Vadeli can once more unite to finally crush the EVIL AMMORAL Brithini. 2) The following suppositions are my own, but we aided by knowledge which I recieved in a dream. I was visited by a stranger in Grey Robes who told me many strange and interesting things before he had to rush off. His last words to me were "Oh dear, they have almost caught up with me! I must dash now or they will burn me!" a) The Blue Vadeli will be reborn to another Vadeli so that it can be taught how to be a Vadeli and what its caste restrictions are. b) The Vadeli do not eat ALL their babies otherwise they would not be able to replace their loses. As they get better at Duration skill they need to cast fewer immortality spells, thus they can allow more of their children to survive. c) When the Blue Vadeli is reborn I am certain that this is one baby that the parents will not eat. I am not sure that this baby will have a father in the conventional sense of the word and might be the only example of a Vadeli virgin birth. Of course the Brithini will be doing their best to kill it off. Well I hope you enjoy this lot (Although it might give you nightmares) Lewis --------------------- From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069) Subject: Mail on Internet Message-ID: <01HBW9SLQR5C9JD4W0@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com> Date: 3 May 94 06:31:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3888 Devin: Did you try using something like UUencode on the Excel file first? You should be able to mail it then. --Scott