Bell Digest v940504p4

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 04 May 1994, part 4
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From: john.hughes@anu.edu.au (John P Hughes)
Subject: Part 2 of ravings - marriage
Message-ID: <9405040424.AA08268@cscgpo.anu.edu.au>
Date: 4 May 94 19:23:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3900


*** TIMELESS MYSTERY

<^==@
    /\  /\

Is this a rune, mating ducks or what? 

*** SEX, POLYGAMY, POLYGYNY, POLYANDRY AND MARRIAGE 
(SPPPAM)

Martin gave us something to think about with polygamy, though 
from a very western viewpoint. I'd like to make a few general 
comments concerning Terran then Gloranthan marriage.

First of all, we have to chuck out our C20 western notions of love, 
romance and marriage. The western myth of marriage is different 
to the western reality (serial monogamy and single parent families), 
and both are fairly unique cross-culturally. Romance and 'twue 
love' is a recent western invention, and personal attraction has little 
or nothing to do with marriage in most cultures. (The Chinese say: 
'why wait until the water is boiling to put it on the stove?') We 
must also be careful not to confuse sex and marriage. 

Also, there is no generally accepted anthropological definition of 
marriage - too many variations, too many different strategies; and 
many anthropologists believe it futile to attempt such. Even within 
a single culture, a definition should encompass the complex 
interplay of sexual, economic, legal, political and symbolic elements.

Western marriages are also unusual in that they are the focus of 
primary relationships, and so bear MORE PRESSURE and GREATER 
INTENSITY than most. In societies with extended families, large 
numbers of children and separate male and female domains, things 
are generally a little more relaxed.

I am sceptical of any too literal reading of sociobiological data on 
mating for information on human marriage. Yes, there is a 
correlation between environment, land use and mating/marriage 
patterns, but these elements are further transformed by the 
symbolic and ritual capacities of the human mind. Different 
marriage types often exist in the same environmental area.

In the broadest sense, marriage is about allocating 'bundles' of 
rights and relationships into different 'packages'. Elements present 
in most marriages include an agreement between groups (perhaps 
for future marriages) and a transfer or flow of rights - work 
services, sexual access, children, property, hunting or planting 
rights etc. It's always two-way, so when you ask, "What is being 
transferred here?" you must also ask, "What balances it?" Also, be 
careful to remember the female side of the equation: marriage 
grants a woman rights, sexual and otherwise, over her husband.

In most marriages, sexual rights are usually NOT exclusive. In 
Murdoch's cross-cultural survey, 63% of cultures surveyed 
sanctioned extra-marital relations of some kind.

If a partner dies prematurely, many cultures will replace him or 
her with a close relative. (Remember, most forms of marriage are a 
relationship between groups, not individuals). The most common 
forms of replacement are called levirate (where the brother of a 
deceased husband will marry the wife), and sororate (where the 
sister of a deceased wife will marry the husband).

Also divorce rates vary widely from culture to culture.

Marriage is a process as much as an event. The obligations between 
the two groups concerned may continue after the death of both 
partners. There will be opening exchanges, engagement and 
marriage exchanges, first child exchanges etc. Often a marriage 
becomes legally binding only after the conception or birth of the 
first child.

POLYGYNY (ONE WIFE, MANY HUSBANDS)

Polygyny on earth is associated with areas where the most 
important resources are human resources (i.e. human labour).

Despite Martin's assertion, the main problems associated with 
polygyny have to do with access to resources, relative power, and 
conflicts concerning children rather than sexual jealousy.

And despite the more purient fantasies of some males, you can 
forget the sheik/harem model. The strongest bonds are frequently 
between the co-wives, rather than husband and wife. In fact, many 
cultures practice sororal polygyny, where sisters all marry the 
same husband.

Now if the gender split is roughly 50/50, you have to ask where all 
these extra wives come from. Well, polygyny is usually associated 
with a large age difference between partners: older men have 
several wives; younger men have none. Effectively, there is a male 
underclass. Polygyny also correlates to a high incidence of (young) 
males dying in war or raiding - of course, this might be cause or 
effect! Surprisingly, it also correlates to a high incidence of 
witchcraft accusations (which is different to a high incidence of 
witchcraft). Jealousy DOES seem to be the cause here, but it's 
frustrated young men taking it out on older men and their 
(unobtainable) wives.

You might also obtain extra wives through abduction and rape, but 
I don't think anyone would want to build pc Gloranthan societies 
based on this. (see below).

POLYANDRY (ONE WIFE, SEVERAL HUSBANDS)

Despite some feminist rhetoric, polyandry on terra is NOT 
associated with matralineal descent (tracing descent through 
women) nor a high status for women. (This is the reason I didn't 
posit polyandry among the matralineal Doraddi, a culture where 
women do possess high status and much power. Still Doraddi 
women enjoy sexual freedom, cause sex ain't marriage).

The reason for this becomes apparent when one ask where the 
'extra' men come from. It turns out to be not a surplus of men but 
an artificial shortage of women. Sadly, polyandry correlates with 
female infanticide (the murder of female children). Both polyandry 
and infanticide seem to exist mainly as a form of population control 
in marginal environments.

It is relatively uncommon on terra: one of the anthropological 
problems has been to identify whether instances of 'polyandry' are 
really situations where the husband 'loans' the sexual services of 
his wife to other men, i.e. where the woman does not control her 
sexuality. The most common form is adelphic polyandry, where a 
group of brothers marry a single woman. As Pam noted, the custom 
is concentrated in Nepal and parts of India.

MARRIAGE IN GLORANTHA

OK. Marriage takes different forms on earth mainly for 
economic/resource reasons, not sexual experimentation. Marriage is 
about two groups meeting, and only secondarily about the union of 
individuals. The mother-child bond is an almost universal constant, 
but other than that almost anything is possible. 

We have terran examples of marriages where husband and wife 
never meet, of 'ghost marriages' where a woman's children are 
recognised as belonging to a long dead husband, of heterosexual 
woman-to-woman marriages where the children conceived by the 
'wife' are socially credited as being children of the (socially 
powerful) female 'father', celibate marriage, homosexual marriage, 
child marriage. 

All of these are possible in Glorantha, as well as certain 
manifestations unknown on earth. How about marriage to a spirit or 
dead ancestor, with voluntary or involuntary possession for the 
fathering of children? 

Just how DOES magic affect sex, fertility and marriage in a given 
Gloranthan culture ? TOTRM #6 and #11 will set you thinking, 
whether or not you agree with the examples and conclusions. Is 
androgeny taboo, even if homosexuality is not? Are transvestites 
automatically tricksters? Surely contraceptive magic or herbs are 
readily available, one of the reasons for the relative freedom of 
women in most Gloranthan societies. What exactly CAN Uleria do? 
What is the effect of a weekly lunar cycle on fertility, or do 
Gloranthan women become fertile only at certain times of the year? 
Sea Season? Can they consciously decide when they wish to be 
fertile (wouldn't that be nice for all concerned?) Could a woman 
say, promise her services to a warrior god for a certain number of 
years, and then automatically conceive through the intervention of 
a fertility goddess of the same pantheon? Can parted couples meet 
in spirit form? Can a woman's sister bear her children for her if she 
decides on the warrior path? What about couvade among humans? 
If spirit essence is as important as genes, what effect does this have 
on parenthood?

In previously discussing these issues with Greg, a few points have 
come up. Glorantha is generally not the place for the worst aspects 
of patriarchy to manifest (recall Sandy's comment on Greg vetoing 
strongly patriarchal societies in Pamaltela). In most Gloranthan 
societies, women and men are regarded as different though equal. 
There are powerful female role models of all types among the 
divinities. Powerful magics reinforce women's special powers and 
responsibilities. (The daughters of Genert cover just about 
everything...) In other discussions, Greg has mentioned that 
Gloranthan's enjoy and respect sex too much to engage in the 
mutilations practised by various peoples on earth.

And of course Glorantha has matriarchies! Earth, on currently 
available evidence, has not, and never has, despite lots of wishful 
thinking and contemporary myth-making. (Please note carefully 
what I'm saying: we have examples of matraliny (lots!) we have 
archaeological examples of highly visible goddess/female principle 
worship (lots!), we have examples of cultures where the 
relationships between men and women are respectful and fairly 
equal (unfortunately, not so lots). None of these are the same as a 
matriarchy. Most supporting evidence for matriarchies comes from 
historical myths and optimistic interpretation of archaeological 
evidence, and are far from conclusive. This is my own academic 
caution here, I'd like to think we have had matriarchies, and so 
might have variations on them again, but I don't see any evidence. 
With Glorantha, we have an opportunity to build and explore a 
matriarchy and see how it works! (It will be far different than the 
reverse image of a patriarchy). This is an exciting opportunity.

Not that Glorantha is some kind of gender paradise, far from it. For 
example, GRAY portrays a strong undercurrent in Solar mythology 
against women - they believe that men and women are not the 
same and are not equal. (In the First People myth, it is stated that 
women have less FLAME than men - roll POW on 2d6?!?!?). GRAY 
portrays stodgy misogynistic Light Priests, fearful of pollution and 
women and bodies and change, longing for a Solar womb that is 
eternally denied them. It suggests that the entire Yelmic religion is 
neurotic, longing for Oneness, longing for a return to a masculine 
womb that can never be. It has no imagination for change or for 
different approaches. It is afraid to grow, afraid to change, and 
incidentally, afraid of the feminine principle.

Enough on the Solars. Wouldn't it be nice to take the wider 
portrayal of mutual power and respect seriously, as well as the 
magical possibilities, and explore some of the implications, stead of 
bitchin' about relative strength or sulking about Babeesta Gor's cute 
gal-only spells? The topic of fertility and marriage has barely been 
touched, but it's pretty fundamental to everything Gloranthan. Over 
to you, folks.

John.


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From: klaus@diku.dk
Subject: Thing
Message-ID: <199405030743.AA10834@rimfaxe.diku.dk>
Date: 3 May 94 11:43:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3885


A few days ago, Joerg Baumgartner wrote that Orlanthi clans are
democratic with Icelandic things. Make up your mind. What do you
want, democracy or an Icelandic thing? You can't have both.

Klaus O K

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sailing traders
Message-ID: 
Date: 3 May 94 08:08:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3886

Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3865

> Joerg:
>> I have a Hendriki boy, son of a family of crafters, wanting 
>> to become a sailor. I told him to do so, he would have to go with his 
>> uncle who does the trading of his family's products, and via Issaries 
>> initiation (at home) and Dormal initiation (on board) he'd become a 
>> Holy Country sailor.

> Why Issaries?  I think very few sailors would join his cult, as Dormal
> also serves a Communication purpose.

The story is about this: The father has inherited the weaver's business 
in Jaransbyrig, and his (younger) brother had to find himself another 
related trade. He (the boy's uncle) chose to become a trader to further 
the profit of the family business. In doing so he would purchase spun 
wool in the interior of Heortland, bring it to his brother's workshop or 
other textile-workers, and then sell it at the great marketplaces of 
the Holy Country, foremost of which are Karse and Nochet where the 
Handra-going merchant ships land.

The boy has no inclination whatever to work at the loom, so he helped 
his uncle already early, and accompanied him also on a short sea 
voyage to Nochet. This voyage made him want to become a sailor.

To break the news to his parents and temple, he decided it would be 
appropriate to become trader (which was possible at home) and sailor.

> You mean his parents are weavers, or merchants?  If the later, one presumes
> they're members of some Malkioni(sed) merchant class, likely including an
> element of Issaries worship.

His uncle is an Aeolian with St. Issaries as patron Saint, yes. So is the 
boy (now), at home. Additionally he took St. Dormal as a patron for his 
sea voyages. I didn't charge extra POW sacrifice.

>> But a male Orlanthi, even if he 
>> is a town dweller, couldn't really be expected to worship a handmaiden 
>> of Ernalda (one of these would be the weaver) as primary deity.

> If he's an actual weaver, I think he probably would.  This would, after all,
> be "women's work" to hard-line Orlanthi, but urbanised people are likely
> to be more flexible regarding traditional gender roles.  A more sophisticated
> weaving "industry" might redefine distinct stages (carding, spinning, weaving,
> etc.) of the process to be appropriate tasks for each gender, assigning them
> to the province of Orlanth Maker, Voriof, or an aspect of Ernalda or Asrelia
> accordingly.

Orlanth Maker: This sounds like a God Learner construct to me. Of all 
ruling deities I know, Glorantha or Earth, very few qualify as crafters - 
right now I can only think about Lugh Lamfadha, and - rather far fetched - 
Pamalt Necklace-maker. I view Orlanth much as the tribal chief who has his 
retainers for such tasks, and who plows mainly to please his wife, now and 
then.

> Regarding the son, I would say he wouldn't necessarily join his parents'
> religion if they knew and approved of his wish to become a sailor: he could
> have been sponsored by, apprenticed to, or conceivably fostered by his
> uncle or other likely patron to enable him to join the necessary cult(s).

Being caring parents, they wanted him initiated where his family lives, and 
the uncle could sponsor him mainly for St. Issaries at the local temple. 
There is a small shrine to St. Dormal, but that is mainly there for 
completeness' sake, and to honor the heroquester who overcame Zzabur's 
curse, not the sailor.

And to be honest: Dormal's spell "predict weather" is one of the most 
superfluous spells in GoG when an initiation into the cult of Orlanth 
gives the same effect as this 2-point divine spell permanently, at the 
cost of 1 POW and a bit tithing. I bet that in Karse or Nochet Dormal is 
one of Orlanth's associates as well, and that the extra duties fall flat.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Vadeli (aren't the bad guys, just get bad Brithini press)
Message-ID: <9405031318.AA10300@Sun.COM>
Date: 3 May 94 12:54:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3887


Hi ALL
	I have some comments about the Vadeli which stem from those published 
here by Sandy and Nick...

1) My Vadeli source claimed that they did cooperate with ALL the other races 
in the I fought We won.  However, Zzabur struck down the Noble Blue Vadeli 
from behind while he was devoting all his awesome powers to fighting Chaos.  
Thus, Chaos is greater than it might have been and there are no Blue Vadeli.  

But, the Noble spirit of the Blue Vadeli was not crushed by the EVIL Black 
Magic of Zzabur (who stole his skin to cover his Blue Book).  Even now, his 
spirit is fighting its way back to the world to be reborn so that the Vadeli 
can once more unite to finally crush the EVIL AMMORAL Brithini.  

2) The following suppositions are my own, but we aided by knowledge which I
recieved in a dream.  I was visited by a stranger in Grey Robes who told me 
many strange and interesting things before he had to rush off.  His last words 
to me were "Oh dear, they have almost caught up with me!  I must dash now 
or they will burn me!"  

a) The Blue Vadeli will be reborn to another Vadeli so that it can be taught 
how to be a Vadeli and what its caste restrictions are.  

b) The Vadeli do not eat ALL their babies otherwise they would not be able to 
replace their loses.  As they get better at Duration skill they need to cast 
fewer immortality spells, thus they can allow more of their children to survive.
c) When the Blue Vadeli is reborn I am certain that this is one baby that the 
parents will not eat.  I am not sure that this baby will have a father in the 
conventional sense of the word and might be the only example of a Vadeli 
virgin birth.  Of course the Brithini will be doing their best to kill it off.  
	Well I hope you enjoy this lot
	(Although it might give you nightmares)
						Lewis


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From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Scott Haney, AFDS770 Functional Test X2069)
Subject: Mail on Internet
Message-ID: <01HBW9SLQR5C9JD4W0@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 3 May 94 06:31:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3888

Devin:  Did you try using something like UUencode on the Excel file 
first?  You should be able to mail it then.


--Scott