From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 11 May 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
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Precedence: junk
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: the Godplane, and other webs.
Message-ID: <9405101816.AA10767@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 May 94 18:16:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3961
Peter Michaels:
> Let me also apologize to all the folks who have had problems reading my
> postings. I did not realize tha
> t they were such a problem, and will from
> now on follow Bryan J. Maloney's advice to make them easier for all to
> deal with. Bryan, thank you for pointing the problem out, and (most
> importantly) for being able to suggest a solution! :-)
I think we need to suggest a bit harder. ;-/ Funny linebreaking certainly
makes text hard to read, and intra-word linebreaking is funnier than most...
> I'd like to hear other people's stories about the Heroplane and how they
> make sense of it in relation to Glorantha. My story currently is that it is
> the
> stage upon which the stories that socially construct Glorantha are played
> out. But this is just one story, one way to think about the Heroplane.
> Another story, such as Colin's, is just fine too.
> [...] Colin uses the metaphore of Arachne Solara's
> web of his Heroplane. To me, it's ALL a metaphore, it's all a story. All of
> the Heroplane is just stories!
Let me expound for a moment on stories, and webs. This is gleened from
various places, and isn't to be taken as putatively official, the Only
Correct View, or even original. Excuse the God Learnerish, quasi-
graph-theoretic tone.
The Heroplane (Godplane, Godplace, blah, blah, as it exists now, not
(necessarily) as it was in the Moment) is the Web of Arachne Solara.
Each strand is a myth, or story, or occurrence of pre-history. Each
nexus of the web represents a Mythic Event, that is, a "time" and
"place" of pre-Dawn Glorantha where some particular thing Happened,
and of course Is Happening. The strand between two Events is the
Mythic Action which causes the two to be connected in the causality of
the myth.
So, for example, "At the Hill of Gold, Yelmalio fighting Orlanth",
and "At the Hill of Gold, Yelmalio fighting Zorak Zoran" are two
(related) Mythic Events. The Mythic Action "Orlanth defeats Yelmalio"
causes the Yelmalio figure (anyone following his Path) to move from
the first Event to the second.
For Yelmalio read "The God of the Winter Sun of your choice", naturally.
To extend the Web metaphor, think of the (distinct) origin myths as being
at the edge of the web, with Chaos, the Predark, Nothingness beyond.
At the centre is the Compromise, the birth of Time, and Arachne Solara
herself. In between run all the myths, interwoven, criss-crossing,
fragmentary in some places, contradictory in others.
This leads to the question of the relationship between the Godtime, and
Time. I see two main possibilities.
a) There is a (slightly) distinct Godplane for each moment of Time:
effectively, it's within Time, but interacting with it in strange ways,
Invisible, and following its own weird rules. Meeting people from
other ages on an HQ may not be possible under this scheme.
b) There's only one, static, Godplane, but our view of it changes over
Time. This would make it possible to meet people from another age, but
raises the question of whose "view" of the HP prevails if you do.
> What happens to people is real. Events are real. It is the story we make
> up about those events that is socially constructed.
But are _mythic_ events necessarily (objectively, factually) real, or
could the heroplane itself contain, not just different interpretations
of "the same events", but quite different, independant, even contradictory
mythic events?
> What does it mean that Orlanth killed Yelm?
Note that these myths existed originally without the Theyalan myth referring
to Yelm, or the Solar version to Orlanth. Are these two versions of the
same thing, or two separate myths "reconciled" by the God Learners, or other
funsters?
> But, what if the Orlanthi were to reinterpret their part of the
> myth differently? Maybe as something about Orlanth being called upon
> to kill Yelm in order to aid him in learning about death and dying?
> Orlanth as teacher, instead of Orlanth as bully? If the whole of Orlanthi
> society really believe this, and practiced this belief, and changed their
> rituals to reflect this changed belief, then I think the reality of Glorantha
> would be changed.
Orlanthi and Yelm have a perfectly feasible way of reconciling their
differences, to wit, the Lightbringer's Quest/Self-Resurrection of Yelm.
Each of these contains an implicit or explicit acknowledgement of the
other, and should be sufficient as a basis for peace between Air and Sun
if the worshipers were remotely so inclined.
> In addition, I think female trolls have a biting reflex on reaching orgasm.
> I see this response being almost uncontrollable in Mistress race trolls,
> somewhat controllable in Dark trolls, and almost non-existant in trollkin.
This is quite an amusing idea, playing up the "Black Widow" spider
comparison.
> Any males who do die are probably
> just eaten. Remember, they weren't killed for food, it was "a crime of
> passion."
A female uzuz eating a male ukdo is likely to be a misdemeanour, at the
best of times... Also, it's not impossible that the male might _consent_
to being eaten, given the likelyhood of there being significant ritual
magical advantages to this, reproductively.
"Kelogash the Hungry's recipe for obtaining a True Birth: first catch your
male uz [remainder censored]".
> Makes me wonder if the (admittedly rare) troll Uleria worshiper would
> draw the more masochistic type of client, becoming the S&M specialist in
> the temple.
RQ and BDSM, the connection rolls on. Personally, I blame
those _naughty_ Talesites: they don't call it the English Vice for nothing,
you know...
Alex, eyeing the border nervously.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: God Learners, and other persecuted minorities.
Message-ID: <9405101829.AA10787@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 May 94 18:29:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3962
John H:
> I was a bit cheeky with this, because what the GLs really believed
> is a BIG SECRET, and all we can have are our own opinions.
I think what they believed is mostly evident, or at least susceptible to
inference, guesswork, and defamation. What was exact the big secret is,
of course, part of the secret.
> I would classify the GLs as SCIENTISTIC rather than scientific in
> their thinking. They were deductionists rather than inductionists,
> and, practiced a pseudo-science because they never appreciated or
> tested the limits of Falsification.
> The effects of their experiments (i.e Goddess Switch),
> also seem to indicate they were unable to predict the outcome of
> their experiments or modify their models
That's a bit rough. The Goddess Switch is really a "reasonable" example
of scientific experiment:- Theorem: these two Goddess are the same, or
at least so similar as to be interchangeable; Experiment: switch 'em;
Observation: watch what happens; Prediction: nothing; Falsifying result:
that which promotes growth hits fan.
Compared, to say, earthly mythography or biological taxonomy, this is
a veritable model of the scientific method. Now, from the pov of the
people being experimented on, this makes them better classified as
Complete Barstewards.
> - a failing which led to the Eight New Manifestations.
Who they?
> Their greatest successes were with the
> anti-chaos pantheons, but their principles/models made little
> headway with draconic, Pamaltean, Grower, Maker or Hsunchen
> myth worlds.
Draconic I'll give you (but note they had a wild time among the human
dragon worshippers of the east), but I disagree elsewhere. The Hykim
and Mikyh writeup is GLism run riot. Dozens of cults described in a page
and a half, and all shoehorned into the same format for the rune magic?
I bet someone made tenured professor with a fat research grant on the
strength of _that_.
> Perhaps most tellingly, I think Greg's attitude to the GLs comes
> pretty directly from Joseph Campbell, and is intended as a lesson in
> what happens if you try to manipulate myths scientistically rather
> than from an involved cultural perspective.
Yah. But I think Greg's own attitude has changed: things that we were
blithely spoon-fed as being true before now stand condemned as God Learner
monomyth artifacts/RQ2 2nd-ageist bludners.
Alex.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Tricky.
Message-ID: <9405101840.AA10803@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 May 94 18:40:46 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3963
John H:
> SOCIETIES need tricksters, whether it' s Eurmal or Prometheus or
> Coyote or Lenny Bruce or Johnny Rotten.
I don't think Prometheus was a Trickster figure; certainly not _all_
firebringer archetypes need be. I have my doubts about Lenny Bruce, too.
> While Alex's idea of
> Tricksters worshipping together has some intriguing scenario
> possibilities, it also strikes me as somewhat odd.
Steady on there... I'm absolutely _not_ suggesting a Quorum of 75 Eurmal
Acolytes at every Holy Day. I envisage that the "Priest" of the shrine
be present, perhaps a handful (at most) "Non-priest" Acolytes who happen
by, and whoever else can be roped in. To wit, initiates of associate
cults, passing drunks, amateur practical jokesters, and as many Hapless
Dupes as can be made to sit still for it.
Of course, another important Trickster Worship Ceremony is the Whole
Town Rounds The Misbegotten Wretch Up, Tars And Feathers Him, and Runs
Him Out Of Town. Not uncommonly following quickly after type A ceremonies,
when the head man's house gets burnt down, but also simply as ritual
scapegoating. I think this "counts" as Trickster `worship'.
Important rule about Trickster ceremonies: someone, somewhere gets a belly-
laugh out of it, whether or not it's the laugh the Trickster had in mind.
For all I know some ceremonies could consist of retired Eurmal priests
playing Pro-Celebrity full-contact golf with each other, though some
would argue this violates the above rule.
> I would see a clan trickster's main role as being part of major
> pantheon ceremonies, almost a cult 'hero' (pet? valuable captive?)
> of the ruling deity rather than a separate cult.
This is clearly a major part of religious life of "tame" Eurmali
worshippers, but not all of it, and not all of 'em are tame.
> (Then again, I'm big on pantheon worship).
I, too, am big on worship ceremonies which involve (many of) the deities
of the pantheon, and hence the initiates of each, but let's not conflate
this with the Dread Concept of pantheon initiation, which would have many
("most", according to the Fundamental Pantheonists ) of the initiates
of a community not worshipping any specific deity of the pentheon, and
hence not being identified with any.
> An Eurmali on a leash during Orlanth temple
> ceremonies? It would certainly make sermons less boring.
Not as much so as one _off_ the leash...
> And Sacred Time ceremonies are one universal
> example of pantheon and even inter-pantheon combined worship
> and ceremony.
I don't think the Sacred Time is universal: from their calendar, the
Kralori don't seem to have it, and I bet the Westerners don't. Certainly
in Theyalan lands, "everyone takes part".
> The idea of a world-wide "Cult of Trickster" is laughable
Hey, that's the point, right? Critical casting a Great Group Laughter,
obviously.
> Trickster is certainly a murderer.
;-) We were debating whether _Eurmal_ is a Murderer, not
whether _some_ Trickster aspect is, which issomewhat evident from
GoG. (Though my vote was "yes", anyway.)
Jonas Schiott:
> Why does this 'official'
> Eurmal cult contradict both normal cult structure _and_ the special
> Trickster structure?
Because: a) He's a Trickster, stoopid! ;-); and, b) it's patently Not
Official.
> Hm. This section is somewhat in conflict with the sources (not that I care,
> just thought I'd mention it). Essentially, it gives eurmalites an
> _official_ place in the orlanthi order of things, which seems a bit
> non-trickster to me. The consensus seems to be that they are tolerated at
> best.
The Official Place is what _gets_ them tolerated. Eurmal is probably the
most important deity in the LBQ apart from Orlanth. (And easily the most
important in the LBJ. ) He must, as a matter of cosmic necessity,
have such a place: it just happens to be a rather smelly, leaky, downtrodden
one.
> >Initiates must sacrifice one point of Power on each Holy Day
> Is this really supposed to say "Power"?
No. RQ2ism. Or perhaps, an over-zealous "translation" therefrom.
(I also have my doubts about "all mps", since this renders one unconscious
for a couple of hours.)
> >The RQ rules [I] WERE NOT however,
> >designed to simulate large scale social, environmental or magical
> >effects.[I]
> I agree that the rules, _as they stand_, lead to absurdities when you try
> to extrapolate a society from them. But couldn't one work from the other
> direction?
This is the (alleged) point of _Glorantha: the Game_. And probably
(one of) the (many) reason(s) why it's not rushing onto our shelves.
Alex, firm believer in the "HeroQuest was published as _Trivial Pursuit_"
Rumour.
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk (Alex Ferguson)
Subject: Plain sailing.
Message-ID: <9405102134.AA10988@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 10 May 94 21:34:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3965
Joerg, 3886.
> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3865
> > You mean his parents are weavers, or merchants? If the later, one presumes
> > they're members of some Malkioni(sed) merchant class, likely including an
> > element of Issaries worship.
> His uncle is an Aeolian with St. Issaries as patron Saint, yes.
No, I really did mean "his parents". They sound more like proto-capitalists
than "weavers" as such.
> So is the
> boy (now), at home. Additionally he took St. Dormal as a patron for his
> sea voyages. I didn't charge extra POW sacrifice.
Just how many cultic initiations does one get free on special offer with
pantheon initiation currently, then?
> >> But a male Orlanthi, even if he
> >> is a town dweller, couldn't really be expected to worship a handmaiden
> >> of Ernalda (one of these would be the weaver) as primary deity.
> > If he's an actual weaver, I think he probably would. [...]
> > the province of Orlanth Maker, Voriof, or an aspect of Ernalda or Asrelia
> > accordingly.
> Orlanth Maker: This sounds like a God Learner construct to me.
It does? Is that a compliment, Joerg? ;-) I'm not sure where Orlanth
Maker sprang from, but if a culture developes specialised tasks it didn't
have a mythic rationale for, they have to be tacked on somewhere.
Stick to the other suggestions, if you'd rather. Another would be to
"reinterpret" a handmaiden of Ernalda as a child of E. and Orlanth.
> I view Orlanth much as the tribal chief who has his
> retainers for such tasks, and who plows mainly to please his wife, now and
> then.
More closet Yelmism. ;-) Orlanth is the god of Everyman, as well as King.
> > Regarding the son, I would say he wouldn't necessarily join his parents'
> > religion if they knew and approved of his wish to become a sailor: he could
> > have been sponsored by, apprenticed to, or conceivably fostered by his
> > uncle or other likely patron to enable him to join the necessary cult(s).
> Being caring parents, they wanted him initiated where his family lives, and
> the uncle could sponsor him mainly for St. Issaries at the local temple.
> There is a small shrine to St. Dormal, but that is mainly there for
> completeness' sake, and to honor the heroquester who overcame Zzabur's
> curse, not the sailor.
The Aeolisation of your example confuses things rather for me, but it seems
fairly clear that in this context he could have been initiated to the
appropriate god(s) without the (wretched ) excesses of pantheon
initiation.
Due to the presence of the word "Saint" in front of each of the deities'
names, I'm having increasing difficulty in imagining a Heortlander, of a
culture still described as "Orlanthi", pronouncing them with a straight
face. Given that they believe them to be divine, and distinct from
"ordinary" saints, why confuse them with the use of the title? Personally
I believe that "even" the thoroughgoingly Malkionised henotheists of
Ralios don't use the term in this way. Of course, where to draw the
line between a manifest god and a (once) mortal Saint is another kettle
of kumquats.
> I bet that in Karse or Nochet Dormal is one of Orlanth's associates as well
I don't doubt it.
Alex.
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From: fujitsuI!kawa.ssl.fujitsu.co.jp!tanae@Sun.COM (S.Tanae)
Subject: I would like to join RQ-ML
Message-ID: <9405110233.AA23951@dragon.kawa.ssl.fujitsu.co.jp>
Date: 11 May 94 02:33:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3966
Hello. My name is Shuuichi Tanae.
I would like to join RQ-ML
I also would like to join RQ4 playtest ML
bye.
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Shuuich Tanae@Fujitsu SSL 1)4)SolutionBusiness |
| e-mail: tanae@kawa.ssl.fujitsu.co.jp, HGF02304@niftyserve.or.jp |
+----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
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From: appel@soda.berkeley.edu (Shannon D. Appel)
Subject: RQ Dailies Needed
Message-ID: <199405110622.XAA12323@soda.berkeley.edu>
Date: 10 May 94 16:22:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 3967
For a while, after the RQ Digest shifted over to the RQ Daily,
I wasn't saving the Dailies to the soda archive. As a result,
I'm missing all of the RQ Dailies from 05/20/93 to 08/12/93.
Is there anyone out there who has these and could upload them
to soda:/pub/runequest/upload for me? If so, I'd appreciate it,
as that would complete the Daily archives.
Shannon
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