From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 12 May 1994, part 1 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk X-RQ-ID: Intro This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest format. More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found after the last message in this digest. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Re: Orlanth Miscellaneous Message-ID:Date: 11 May 94 15:37:08 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3975 Alex in X-RQ-ID: 3964 I wanted to stop writing about initiation. Oh, well, another Looong piece... [transferable membership of Orlanth subcults, eps. to O.Rex] > No, certainly not. (Not that I have a writeup handy.) Neither do I. Does there exist one in an obscure magazine like Wyrm's Footnotes or Different Worlds? If so, when will these become publically available? > The trouble here > is that the term "subcult" is an inherently ambiguous one, covering about > three (any advance on three?) quasi-distinct concepts: a) an Aspect: > eg, Lightbringer, or Thunderous, etc; b) an initiatory status, or > "stage", eg Storm Voice, Initiate; and c) a "subservient cult", such > as the Sandals of Darkness. The term is convenient to describe each > of these, but we need to keep distinct, at least some of the time. Exactly the problem. I'd toss in a fourth, the associate cult, and arrive at pantheistic worship, as probably was done among the Theyalans - at least you seem to imply this, below. > I agree with Orlanth-Barntar, and perhaps Orlanth Berserker (the pre-3rd- > age subcult previously discussed?), but the others sound dubious, for > various reasons. So we have Humakt and Urox as early subcults of Orlanth; Heler, Mastakos, Barntar, the Thunder Brothers still are; probably even Elmal was at the Dawning. There are the Lightbringer subcults of Orlanth. So a Dawn Age Theyalan could join Orlanth and get the whole pantheon, right? (Can you feel the ick creeping up? ) > But each cult, however unique it is, must worship _something_: something > identifiable, and identifiable _with_, for a fairly clearly conceptualisable > "purpose", not something hopelessly vague and open-ended like a "pantheon". How about a cult worshipping Orlanth and his companions and friends, each of them at the appropriate time, and for the appropriate benefit? > Anything more than seven is a committee. A ring, to stick with Orlanthi nomenclature. A necklace, for Pamaltelans. > Your "definitive sources" are getting thinner by the second, Joerg. ;-) I fail to see any of yours... ;-) >> sporting a goaty > Nick, have you been Illuminating this poor soul? ;-) goatee, for Rashoran's sake. Remember I'm neither Sassenach nor colonial, but a continental dabbling in Tradetalk. > Minaryth isn't a "typical" 14 year old, I'm sure. Someone given "a quill, > a way with words" at birth could be at 90% Write Sartarite by 14. By a "gift and geas" mechanic? How do I create such unusual characters as PCs? [LM initiation] > Or he may not consider this "formality" worth mention in > comparison to his initiation into adulthood. If it is a formality, then why waste a pointa POW for it? > Why are you so convinced he was an (active) initiate of Orlanth? I could > buy it under the "everyone is" theory, but see no need to suppose it > otherwise. Everyone tending the land, fighting in the fyrd (militia), and sitting in the ring of elders would be a worshipper of Orlanth to no little extent. An active worshipper is what we call initiate, right? > Cultic initiation is _not_ a rite of passage, as such, for adults: no > one argues that one can join a cult as an adult, of any age, so it > can hardly have the same ritual significance as passing into culthood > (for the first time), and Adulthood (for the only time). Hey, cultic intitiation defines your afterlife, your Runes, your life. Your standing in family, clan and tribe changes, you get access to radically different positions. _Not_ a rite of passage? Tell that the guy initiated to Eurmal, for instance. > This is a pretty deuced clear-cut example of initiation into a single > deity, but paying attention to one's normal social, including other > religious, due. I.e. to the pantheon, ot the temple. You are initiated (=introduced into a significant level of the cult secrets) by doing all your social and religious due. > Next example? None. Not on the Daily, anyway. > Why do you assume > that this kind of solar-construction age-stage-cult pertains among the > Orlanthi? Because it is said so in KoS, in the entries for Voria (p.53) and Voriof (p.54). Because I'm Nicked properly. Because it makes sense to me. Because I have found nothing to speak against this, apart from a lonely Scotsman. > Are you counting "Orlanth" as one of the possible `free' "minor > cult[s]", or is everyone effectively "in" Orlanth _and_ a "minor cult" > _*and*_ a "pantheon initiate"? > If the first: Okay, I join my "free" cult . How does this differ > from me being Initiated into under the RQ3 rules? I'm also a > "pantheon initiate", but that just means I'm an associate of various > cults, which I'm associated to anyway via . This is bearable, but > seems pointless. We are sorely in need of a Barntar cult write-up and its exact ties to the cults of Ernalda and Orlanth, as well as its role under Lunar government and how much it counts toward Orlanth worship. Let's take an Orlanth initiate in recently conquered Pavis County who wants to avoid additional trouble with the Lunar occupators. Living in the upper River of Cradles, he makes a life out of farming and plowing, which makes him essentially somewhat of an initiate of Barntar and the Grain Goddess. All (85%) Orlanthi males are initiated to Orlanth (KoS p.245f). Is this worthy associated with e.g. Eiritha, Babeester Gor or other associates of Ernalda? Since he uses oxen to plow, possibly with Eiritha. If he tends an orchard, maybe even with Aldrya? Is he associated with the Lightbringers? With Heler? With Mastakos? Urox? Humakt? Valind? All of these, with varying degrees. If you can express this in the one man - one cult scheme, you are well off. I can't really. > If the second: while true do Ick(); You ought to go and see a White Woman, Alex, maybe she will be able to cure this malaise. > I find it strange that people can simultaneously propose, or agree with > propositions that initiation is a "theistic heroquest of personal > transformation" [...] > and then suggest that the person who emerges from this is a > Generic Theyalan Pantheon Initiate. I heroquest in my (cultic) initiation rite to get my place at Orlanth's Stead. If I am to plow the land, I ask Barntar to show me the knack, and when I sow the seed I fetch it from his wife, Esra. To care for my oxen I learn from Eiritha, and I thank her for that. If I help defend the stead, I get armed the way Heler showed me, so I thank him. If I am to deal with horses, I'll work at the stable, under the guidance of Elmal and Ernalda's horse-loving daughter, his wife. Yet when a horse loses a shoe, I visit Bonesmith two huts away and let him fix that, or when the horse gets sick, I fetch Chalana Arroy to help my charge. Whenever a specific problem is at hand, I worship the appropriate member of Orlanth's Stead. Worship is a matter of giving and taking in a gritty culture like that of the Orlanthi. If I want assistance in a matter of love and courting, I can either fall back to Orlanth's youthful role in his wooing of Ernalda (which is perfectly well for a dalliance with an experienced woman), or I ask Uleria (or even Eurmal) for charm and good looks to get that maiden from the neighbouring stead into the hay (where Orlanth's proven method will most likely fail). This needn't be measurable magic by rules criteria (although RQ:AiG has very recommendably included minor blessing spells and ceremonies which cover just this), but it is one element of this individual's worship - of Orlanth's Stead and its deities, heroes and spirits. In fantasy literature, most authors have their characters invoke a deity fit for the task at hand whenever they undertake something of unsure success (a situation where the roleplayer reaches for his dice). This gives an authentic feel. I want to have this element in my roleplaying as well, thrown in by the players when I am GM. To make them do so, I try to adapt the rules, because that's the easiest way to get them into my line. (If I should succeed to gather a group of players who do so by themselves, without any need of assistance by any outward source, I will consider myself extremely blessed and lucky. I still have to find them, though...) I use the pantheon initiation as an attempt to make the player realize that there are a plethora of potentially benevolent entities which might be helpful in specific situations. If being an initiate is close to roleplaying one's chosen deity, then asking one's patron's recorded helpers, the members of his pantheon, for help is playing in role. If my mundane occupation lacks a direct role model in the pantheon, then I have to fudge my role model form the existing ones. I am a male adult, so my role model is that of the male adult - Orlanth. I live in a village where everyone, including myself, plows a piece of land, so my role model includes the plowman - Barntar. I happen to be the village's clerk, in that I am responsible to collect tithing and feorm for temple and chieftain (Issaries) and to record the village history of economy (Lhankor Mhy). My role is a complex one. I could call myself a Harst initiate, but there is no such independent cult. If there was, it would be weak, and my exclusion from the village's worship would weaken the village as well. My society is a fairly pragmatic one, avoiding unnecessary losses for matters of form. As a result, I will be accepted as Orlanth-cum-Barntar initiate for village purposes, as well as Issaries or Lhankor Mhy representative should need arise, be it mundane (the village elders need to pen a letter to the Lunar occupation force) or spiritual (a ceremony requires a spokesman and Issaries type). My neighbour is responsible for the village cistern, so he combines Heler with the standard Orlanth-cum-Barntar, and my cousin living over there does most of the reparature jobs coming up in the village, be it carpentry, brick-laying or red-smithing. In the rituals, he also represents the makers. Chief of the village militia is old Venharl over there, which makes him the logical choice for the warrior in our rites as well. If viewed strictly by the rules, only old Venharl would qualify as Orlanth initiate, the rest might as Barntar initiates. But how should they perform their Sacred Time rites with but one real Orlanth guy, and one who is getting too old for all of this short LBQ business? A certain flexibility in these matters is mandatory. One might "fudge the cults", as Alex proposes. Makes me ick. [Tithing, temple duties] > These aren't _penalties_, they are _consequences_. How do you plan on > getting something for nothing in the magical ecology? I don't. I make my religious life resemble my mundane life, and get initiated once to do so. If my mundane life changes without my conscious decision to do so, I expect my religious life to follow suit within its possibilities. Thus I have the farmer turning warrior in times of danger as the mainstream member of Orlanthi society. In RQC, these are called initiates of Barntar, in KoS they are called initiates of Orlanth, assuming the Volsaxi Orlanth-worshippers fit both bills. > Are these time > and tithing requirements just something imposed by wicked game designers, > referees, and priests, or do they fulfill some game-world purpose? There is _one_ religious tithe to the temple (community, parish, whatever) I am initiated to. I pay just this tithe, and the tax (or kings food, feorm in Old English, or whowever you call it) to the clan/tribe/king/occupation forces/whatever else mundane authority. I live off the meagre rest I am allowed to keep for the family. I work for my temple the appropriate time, be it as plowman on temple lands, as a guard before the temple, as a minister in service, or whatever. As long as I don't change my life willfully, I expect these dues not to change, whichever aspect of the religion I pursue. If circumstances make me the reeve and keeper of trade goods in my village because my barn happens to have free space, I get drawn into Asrelia's and Issaries' cults. My additional responsibility makes certain magic natural for my position, I live the magic, I heroquest it daily, so it will be granted to my by the temple, in this case Hide Wealth and/or Lock. If my position involves bringing the collected tithe from my village through dangerous nomad land to the temple in New Pavis, I will be a likely candidate to receive Path Watch as well - for this mission, only. I heroquest this by doing it. > I'd > like to think of initiation to a god as being something a bit less mundane > than "specialisation", too. Could you specify your view? > Worshipping many entities makes you _less_ > specialised, by any reasonable metric, surely. Expressed by Cult Lore skills, my character above is likely to have 89% Orlanth (Thunderous) and Ernalda Lore (he's pious), 85% Barntar Lore, 65% Grain Goddess Lore, 55% Issaries Lore, 35% Asrelia Lore, and quite low skill in say Mastakos Lore or O.Adventurous Lore. >> On the other hand, specialization for selfish gains >> deserves all the disadvantages the rules prescribe for "adventurer" >> characters. > How do you plan on telling the difference? If communities can get Free > Lunches, why not us, I hear your players crying. Easy. Don't do it for selfish reasons, but for the good of the community, and you'll get preferred treatment. You want to learn a Shield spell? Sorry, we cannot spare any priest to teach you. You want to learn or have cast Asrelia's cavern to protect the communal grain stored in your barn? Sure, boy, we'll do so in a moment. Generally adventuring magic is frowned upon by village or town priests, it upsets their magical ecology by abusing their ressources. If people want adventuring magic, they'd better get it the hard way - make a pilgrimage, or such. This still cuts the financial benefit of the village priest, but at least it leaves his spiritual account largely unchanged. This the reason why I don't really like David Cheng's Rune Power system for divine magic. It smacks too much of presacrificed DI (like for RQ2 priests) to me. > I don't want to see powergaming peasants _or_ powergaming adventurers. > I think that where combined worship of two gods is a social need for a > community, then there will exist a "fudged" cult, combining or identifying > them. (Though not getting the full benefits of either.) If this need > or desire exists on an individual level: tuff, he has to join both cults, > and if one of them isn't worshipped at all in his area, dubbletuff. If his position involves even more such aspects, the cult gets fudged more. The sum of the fudged cults is the number of pantheon initiates. BTW, did the White Woman cure your icks about pantheon initiates? Then send her around, I have a bad case caused by a village full of fudged cultists, not a single one worshipping a published cult. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: rowe@soda.berkeley.edu (Eric Rowe) Subject: The Pavis City Council: Some Information. Message-ID: <199405110817.BAA26929@soda.berkeley.edu> Date: 10 May 94 18:17:47 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3968 The Pavis City Council The city council of Pavis was created by Duke Dorasar and the other founders in 1550. The council's primary responsibility in running the government is managing the economy. They also appoint judges, levy taxes, distribute food resources, keep the peace, delegate special authority, schedule construction, organize celebrations, keep the streets clear and maintain a sanitary city. At the time of Dorasar's founding the council was made to act as something like an Orlanthi ring of advisors. Of course, the situation in Pavis was quite unusual, but Dorasar showed great flexibility and created a powerful working council. At the head, representing Orlanth, sat Dorasar. During Dorasar's life this was also the mayoral position, but since his passing the mayor can be anyone on the council. Every five years the citizenry vote for the current council member they wish to lead them. The council members themselves are appointed by the traditional family, religious and mercantile groupings within the city. Each is appointed until replaced and sits in one of the original seats created by Duke Dorasar. The original seats are as follows. Orlanth - Duke Dorasar Mostal - Ginkizzie, King of the Dwarfs Zola Fel - Ingilli the Fisher Yelmalio - Varthanis Brighthelm Humakt - Olgkarth Arrow-eye of the Zebra people Waha - Gorgar Bluecloak of the Sable people Pavis - Orlof Manisson, Son of Pavis She who lights the way - Remains empty, but represents the whole council. The current council is very conservative, especially since the Merchant's guild gained influence with the appointment of Kolli the Portly. The main focus is maintaining price balances for stable profits for all. In 1620 the seats are as follows. Orlanth - Brygga Scissortongue of the Garhound family Mostal - Ginkizzie the Dwarf Zola Fel - Hallarax the Singer of the Ingilli family Yelmalio - Kolli the Portly, head of the Jewelers guild Humakt - Derenx the Handsome, head Weaponsmaster Waha - Kalf Haldelson, head of the Bronze Workers guild Pavis - Benderri, Son of Pavis She who lights the way - Remains empty. The Garhound family took over the Orlanth seat when the Lunar invasion killed or drove out most of the descendants of Dorasar. The Garhounds are also Sartarite in origin and rivaled the heirs of Dorasar in size and infuence. Those few remnants of the Dorasar family that survived have married into or otherwise been absorbed into the Garhound family. They remain violently anti-Lunar. The Mostal seat remains with the long lived Ginkizzie. Rumor has it he plans to resign soon and let another Dwarf take his place, but no one has been able to work out the Dwarf politics enough to figure out his successor. The Zola Fel seat has not left the hands of the powerful Ingilli family. The current Head, Hallarax, leads the Imperials and favors the idea of Pavis entering the Lunar pantheon. Karial the Pure has recently abdicated his council seat and it has been taken over by the Kolli the Portly, who leads the City Peacers as well as the Jewelers guild. Others within the Suntown community are outraged at this development. Derenx the Handsome represents all the Weaponmasters in the city. This seat has always been filled by a Sword of Humakt. He is the most Lunar friendly of the Humakti. The Waha seat remained in the hands of the nomads for 22 years. In 1572 Nomads tried to open the gates to friends on the outside and betrayed the city. The seat has since been filled by an appointee of the merchant's guild and currently resides with the powerful Bronze Worker's guild. The Pavis seat is for the High Priest of Pavis. The current High Priest, Benderri, has sat in the seat for almost 30 years. She who lights the way. Those who favor the Lunar way have pointed out many times the similarities between this seat and the glorious light of the Red Moon. --------------------- From: pyspas@midge.bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow) Subject: Rune Order Message-ID: Date: 11 May 94 12:09:15 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3969 Hi. I haven't made my Library Use roll for this one so don't be too hard on me.. Is there any fundamental importance to the order of the runes atributed to gods in GoG? In order to help new players get a grasp on the diversity of worship in Glorantha I thought it might be useful to play with the assigned order. Something along the lines of .. Ok. Orlanth has Air, Motion and Mastery. (There are six permutations of the order here.) An initiate of Orlanth Rex considers the order and importance of Orlanths attributes to be Mastery, Air, Motion whilst a vagabond adventurer worships Orlanth Adventurous whose attributes are Motion, Mastery, Air. Clearly this doesn't work as well when there are fewer runes but whilst the discussion of Humakti worshippers in Tales tells us that no two Humakti are alike. Would it help players to focus on the nature of their Humakti character by deciding whether he is of the Truth Death affilition ( Dirty Harry ?) or the Death Truth followers. etc. Any reasons why this is a Bad Thing? Paul Snow ( gathering GMing momentum for a first Glorantha campaign) PS Did any of the British readers see the repeat of Red Dwarf on friday. (can't remember the episode title) I thought that Lister with his fear removed was a good model for a Storm Bull berserker out looking for Chaos. Does anyone have any good analogies to use in this vein? --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: METALS and Convulsion FFG Message-ID: <9405111143.AA22427@Sun.COM> Date: 11 May 94 11:36:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 3970 Hi All Just some quick comments. 1) Enchanting Metals I agree with Nick's comments about Lhankor Mhy's ability to Enchant Iron but would like to add a few of my own. a) I think that at one time (RQ2) LM was known as the *son* of Mostal. He definately has close and friendly links with the Mostali. This is where he gets his knowledge of Alchemy. I suspect that his attitude towards discovery and preservation of knowledge is as close as humans get to Mostali attitudes. b) Passing on knowledge IS the LM cult speciality, thus if one of the cult gains some knowledge it will generally become accessable to the rest of the cult (assuming that you can understand the catalogue system of the library). Annilla should have Enchant Silver (as a Lunar Goddess) NOT enchant lead. Selenium IF it exists should be HER metal not the Red Goddess'. NB her lunes are Selenes! Elmal should have Enchant Gold or Silver NOT Enchant Iron. He is a Sky/Sun god not a Storm God. His worshippers might be able to get Enchant Iron from Orlanth as associates. Remember in the Elmal Hill of Gold Orlanth gives Elmal his weapons! 2) CONVULSION 94 The Free Form Game "How the West was One" is now completely and TOTALLY FULL. Actually heavily over subscribed. PLease do not bother to send in any applications if you have not done so already. The only exceptions to this are people outside the UK who can offer VERY CONVINCING REASONS as to why their postage was SO delayed. Even then while we will try to shoe-horn them in the chances are pretty small and we offer absolutely NO GUARNTEES that they will get in. Successful people will be notified in PR3 so don't count your chickens before then even if you have already sent your form in. We have had 112 applications for about 70 places so there will be quite a few disappointments; sorry. If anyone out their has a FFG that they would like to run at Convulsion please get in contact with us as we should be able to make the space available and there are likely to be a good number of punters interested, especially if it is set in Glorantha. Bye for now Lewis