From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 14 May 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.
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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Nature of Lodril
Message-ID: <940513073409_100270.337_BHL66-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 13 May 94 07:34:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4000
___________
Martin Crim prefers an Islamic parallel for the West, 'cos most Malkioni
don't have a Trinity.
I think the (essentially Platonic) Credo!-era arguments about the Nature of
Christ convert very well to proto-Stygian disputation and heresy about the
Nature of the Other Gods, and how they relate to the Invisible God. Do they
share the same will? Are they of an essentially similar essence? Is it, in
fact, proper for them to be called "gods" at all? Do they exist separately
from the I.G., or are they fragments of his power accessed by the ignorant?
As most Malkioni (throughout history) have been polytheistic (or that way
inclined), while all have encountered polytheists possessing Divine magic
that they'll need to explain, I believe there's room for loads of fun along
this line of attack.
(Credo! is selling well, they tell me...)
_____________________
Sand Petersen writes:
> Nicky Brooke foolishly asks:
>> Why oh why should Lodril get Enchant Aluminium?
> Because he's the God of Smithies, and can Enchant all metals.
This is not at all obvious from his writeup (White Wolf) or mythology
(GRAY). Possibly he is being credited with his Lowfire son Gustbran's
powers, but the list of metal enchantments would have been less opaque (and
more useful, IMHO) if this were made explicit. Frex, us rustic Sartarite
types can access Gustbran's magic more easily than Lodril's, I believe.
Does the "lo-" in "lo-metal" refer to Lodril?
Is Gustbran lame? I chatted to Greg and Oliver Dickinson about this at
breakfast last Convulsion, but we didn't draw any Gloranthan conclusions.
Except, I found it suspicious the dull, workaday smiths were hobbled, to
prevent them getting away to work for someone else, while Greg's vitally
useful storytellers were stereotypically wandering bards: "Not 'Harmast's
Saga' *again*! Clear off, get out of here, or I'll set the dogs on you!"
====
Nick(y?)
====
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From: pyspas@midge.bath.ac.uk (Paul Snow)
Subject: Casting the Runes
Message-ID:
Date: 13 May 94 16:20:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4001
Thanks Sandy for your helpful explanation. I noticed after I had posted
that Orlanth had acquired an extra Air since RQ2 which I had just been
reading and I just got Humakt wrong.
How known or understood are these rules of rune assignment to a
Gloranthan? Would a Humakti carve two death runes, and one truth, on his
sword because Humakti is known as the Origin of Death or because Humakt is
Death and Death killed man and then Death killed plants? ( I know that
that is perverting the story but use it as a frinstance :-) )
Paul Snow
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From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: stuff
Message-ID: <9405131832.AA02465@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 13 May 94 06:32:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4002
Rich Staats asked in a personal missive:
>What were these entities that wiped out the God Learners?
The Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods. They didn't do it
alone. The course of Second Age GL disaster always followed the same
course: some doom would come to the local force of God Learners. In
each given case, the attacks were explicable, if unusual -- it was
just the amazing number of such destructions all at the same time
that demonstrated it was no mere coincidence.
The Machine Wars, for instance, 'twas just humans, elves,
trolls, and dwarfs acting in rare harmony. And Jrustela was shattered
and mostly sunk by the Waertagi. Seshnela was wrecked by the Luatha.
Then, after the major GL structure was ruined, the Gift
Carriers of the Sending Gods came and destroyed every single GL,
friend of GLs, etc. that was left.
>Is there a published source of Gloranthan lore that >covers them in
>more detail?
I don't know. I really no longer remember what tidbits of
information stored in my fevered brain come from what I've read,
discussions and planning sessions with Greg, or my own personal
unsanctified conclusions.
>One exception to the "unvaried staples means spicy food" idea in
>Glorantha might be Sun County. I picture the stoic Sun Domers as
>making a virtue out of the simplicity and predictability of their
>diet. Any thoughts?
Makes sense to me. Just like the Spartans were proud of their
black bread and vinegar-based soup. One notable Athenian, after
dining with the Spartans, remarked, "It is now clear why the Spartans
do not fear death." The implication being that death was preferable
to another Spartan supper. Of course, the Sun Domers may not actively
promote such awe-inspiring cuisine, but a simple diet seems likely.
Since it would seem that the Lunar soldiery would have plenty of hot
peppers in their food, an interesting source of minor conflict
between Lunars and Sun Dome allies would seem to appear in that
neither could stomach the others' food.
Roderick Robertson mentions:
>For Europe, I thought there just wasn't much in the way hot spices.
>Lots of garden herbs, but no peppers, thus the need to go India.
Well, actually _nobody_ in the Old World had hot peppers
(properly termed "chilis" until the 16th century, when the New World
was discovered. Indian curries before that time were flavored with
black or white pepper, not chilis. The only pepper-like vegetable
available was the pimento, which is a pretty sad substitute for a
good chili. Even bell peppers weren't available.
But once the chilis were discovered, they instantly
transformed the cuisine of India, China, and southeast Asia. However,
most of Europe remained untransformed, though they got access to the
peppers _first_. They added potatoes and beans to their diet (most
beans are New World), just not chilis. So it wasn't just lack of
availability that kept the northern European diet bland. (I don't
mean "bland" in a negative sense here. The Japanese diet is bland,
too, but I like Japanese food a lot.)
re: the Malkioni Trinity.
I do not believe that the Malkioni have any equivalent to the
conventional Christian Trinity. Though Greg and I are both religious
people, the concept of the Trinity is not particularly compelling to
either of us, and when working on the description of the Invisible
God, it never occurred to us to make the Trinity an important facet.
This does not mean that the concept of Three is not a big
part of Malkionism: "The Invisible God was, is, and shall be." for
instance. The Three Laws of Malkion, etc.
I could probably be convinced of the necessity of a Malkioni
Trinitarianism only if I were also convinced of the Trinity as a
basic and powerful mythological concept. Now, the idea of God, of
God's having a Son, and of a dying God are all powerful concepts.
They're all over Glorantha.
Sandy
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Trinitarians to the front.
Message-ID:
Date: 13 May 94 19:44:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4003
Martin Crim in X-RQ-ID: 3999
Thanks for the O.Rex reference.
> Re: Trinity
> Nothing in published works so much as hints at a Trinity in
> Malkionism.
Nothing hinted at Elmal, Rakenveg, Kargzant...
> If a Trinity were important in a mainstream sect of
> Malkionism, it would have been mentioned in a published source,
> such as GoG or G:CHW.
Like Elmal?
Glorantha is too complex a world to be completely covered.
> (Try writing a summary of Christianity
> without mentioning the Trinity, while discussing the Great
> Schism, the multiplicity of eastern rites, and offshoots like the
> Latter-Day Saints. It wouldn't be a very good summary.
So what. Call it egocentrism, but I am more concerned with what
happened in the western half of Europe, and the religious schisms
which happened here. So Augustinus versus Columban is more important
to me than Arius vs. Athanasius, which comes into my hemisphere only
with the catharian movement in the Provence.
> Thus, the Trinity is not important in any mainstream sect of
> Malkionism. Q.E.D.
I agree that trinity is not a major issue of differences between the
major sects of Malkionism. I won't go further.
> But when we're talking about Rokari,
> Hrestoli, and even the Galvosti and Henotheists, we're talking
> about people who don't disagree, for gosh sakes, about the saint
> list,
Catch a non-Stygian venerating St. Paslac, or St. Arkat. St. Rokar
certainly is _not_ worshipped in Loskalm, and even less at the Castle
Coast.
The list of Saints is certain to disagree from local church to local
church, so it isn't a major issue either, unless specificaly stressed.
As do the Ralian Arkat sects, which aren't popular when on pilgrimage
in Arolanit.
> The Malkioni sects disagree about the
> things GoG says they disagree about: class mobility, the use of
> the Tap spell, and whether to worship the visible gods.
This sounds too easy for me. Class mobility was made an issue by
the Rokari, in the late Second or early Third Age. I doubt it is an
issue between the other sects.
The Tap schism seems artificial, lets blame the God Learners.
Visible God worship is one of the oldest schism, which affected already
the First Age Seshnegi Hrestoli. I'd throw the trinity problem into this
category. But why argue about a unity into One if there are more stringent
deviations to discuss, i.e. Polytheism or Monotheism? When the first
article of Credo is decided, we can go on to discuss articles 3 to 5, which
cover the nature of the prophet/son.
> P.S. I'll consider any flames and/or quibbling about side issues
> to signify agreement with the main point unless otherwise
> explicitly stated, OK?
Consider the statement explicit.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: Mastakos - Lokarnos
Message-ID: <9405131551.tn75223@aol.com>
Date: 13 May 94 19:51:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4004
In X-RQ-ID: 3991, Sandy says
>For instance, Mastakos has been given the Light Rune, but really this
>is a sort of honorary representation of the fact that he has a Secondary
>Fire Rune.
Fire Rune? Perhaps you mean Lokarnos instead of Mastakos.
This (possible) freudian slip raises several questions about the
relationship between Mastakos and Lokarnos.
-Both have the mobility run.
-Both are related to wheeled, animal drawn vehicles
Putting on my god learner hat ;-)
It seems that these two gods may just be one god described by two
different cultures.
-Matt Thale
---------------------
From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: Lhankor Mhy
Message-ID: <9405131551.tn75230@aol.com>
Date: 13 May 94 19:51:29 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4005
In X-RQ-ID: 3970, Lewis says,
> b) Passing on knowledge IS the LM cult speciality, thus if one of
> the cult gains some knowledge it will generally become accessable
> to the rest of the cult (assuming that you can understand the
> catalogue system of the library).
In my mostly RQ-2 reference material, a picture of Lhankor Mhy
emerges showing him to be a horder of knowledge rather than one
who passes on knowledge.
If I remember correctly, Lhankor Mhy also used to have the Stasis and
Truth runes. This has changed in RQ-3 to Law and Truth. How much is this
change reflected in the everyday cult life?
-Matt Thale
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Arkat Creedbringer
Message-ID:
Date: 13 May 94 20:20:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4006
Alex, X-RQ-ID: 3988
> Okay. My picture is of less Malkioni influence, and correspondingly
> a less prevalent role for the IG in Heortland.
Me:
: Which I assume for [...] even half of the Hendriki nation, mostly the lower
: classes. That the higher classes of the Hendriki are somewhat malkionized
: follows clearly from both Genertela Book and RQ-Companion.
Alex:
> Yes, I agree with this last bit, but you've been proposing that "weavers"
> follow the Aeolian church. To say nothing of "Saint Barntar".
I said half of the Hendriki nation. The upper class consists of maybe 10%
of the population, the (urban) middle-class maybe again 5%, including the
specialized crafters (at least masters and journeymen). This leaves about
35% of farmers, cottars etc. to follow the Aeolian Church. With most of
the wizards being acolytes as well, these serve as clergy for the urban
"theist" shrines as well (associate priests, if you want).
> [Aeolians = / <> God Learners]
> Heh. No, what I meant was the inclusion of deities in the creed which
> aren't in _either_ Western or Orlanthi cosmology
[me deleted]
> I forget the whole creed, but Maker and Grower spring to mind, and the
> identification of Glorantha, Ginna Jar, and Arachne Solara.
The Ginna Jar identification is common Lhankor Mhy prattle, hardly God
Learner. This entity isn't worshipped directly, so why the hubbub?
Grower and Maker are part of the cosmology, explaining the basics of
Creation in one paragraph. (I hope the Aeolian write-up will be out
as Digest by now.) I didn't want to start with CoT Silence and Prime
Mover, so I took the mainstream 3rd Age cosmology as per GoG.
Alex:
> My understanding is that the dominant Western influence on Maniria is
> post-Closing. (The "Trader Princes". See G:CotHW; GB2, p46.)
Me:
: That's the western part of Maniria, west of Esrolia.
Alex:
> I still suspect this is the origin of said influence, but I grant that
> Heortland is more Westernised than the rest of Maniria.
You forget the other, closer influence: Old Slontos, which was firmly in
the Return to Rightness fold of Malkionism, which extended into the
Zistori lands of Godd Forgot. The presence of knights would have prompted
any subgraduate God Learner to prove the Hendriki were Malkioni, so even
if Arkat had only given them knights, the Empire of the Middle Seas would
have given them the Invisible God.
> Minor quibble: they didn't, really, as Hendriki "knights" aren't a
> Malkioni-style caste or class, much less anything at all like modern
> Hrestoli knights.
Right. They are most similar to Hrestol's original idea of knights. (I
assume that by "modern Hrestoli" you mean the Loskalmi second generation
God Learners, and not the valiant Hrestoli of Seshnela's Castle Coast
with their more Linealist approach...)
> I'm not convinced that any Westerner likely to accompany Arkat, a person
> who'd just apostasised from their religion, would be likely to make good
> "missionary" material.
These were the very guys who converted Arkat to their own creed (of 1st Age
Hrestolism, which - opposed to God Learning claims by the Loskalmi - looked
different than Loskalmi fighting order/regimental knighthood). Of all
Seshnegi Hrestoli, Arkat's earliest friends are the most likely to stay
with their leader, even though he tragically fell from true faith.
Oath-bonds are stronger than religious differences, among honourable men.
> Certainly not to the extend that a millenium later,
> a country in the middle of theist territory would end up as IG-inclined as
> central Ralios, who have Seshnela breathing down their necks. That they'd
> influence them in military matters is easier to believe.
For one thing, knighthood wouldn't have survived without the appropriate
hero cults, which happen to be Malkioni Saints. Second, "right in the
middle of theist territory" is a funny definition for people having
Ancestor worshipping trolls to the north, quite shamanistic Beast Riders
to the East, a mix of Atheists to the south, and a bay full of mermen 300
metres below their lands to the west. They had the God Learners and the
Return to Rightness crusaders breathing down their neck during the greater
part of the Second Age, too.
And in Nochet there is a group of Malkioni living in the catacombs more
often than on the surface, surrounded by theists on the streets, who kept
their _pure_ faith even against God Learner influence (courtesy Nick
Brooke).
[Quivini settlers from the Holy Country]
> Indeed, but they and their fellow colonists, who were likely to have
> similar motivations, don't seem likely to be fertile ground for rampant
> Malkionisation.
Then why did they leave, if back home everyone and his cat were good
Orlanthi?
> Stop arguing with me while I'm trying to agree with you. ;-)
You could have warned me.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de