From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 17 May 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: various Message-ID: <9405161857.AA05558@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 16 May 94 06:57:14 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4033 Nick peevishly complains: >the list of metal enchantments would have been less opaque (and more >useful, IMHO) if this [Lodril's role as god of Smithies] were made >explicit. I refuse to take blame for White Wolf or GRAY's non-mention of Lodril's smith function. He's been a smith-deity for years (in fact, he's the ONLY smith god among trolls) in addition to his other functions. Sure, Gustbran is a pure smith god, but I don't think the lowfires are worshiped much by themselves -- I picture them as subcults, not associates. The reason Lodril has Enchant Aluminum in GoG was because I remembered his smith function, and if that function has been passed over in later years because of his much greater importance as ancestor/creator (Pamaltela) or peasant guardian (Peloria) ... well, that's life. >Is Gustbran lame? Hmm. Hadn't thought about it, really. I guess I'd prefer he wasn't, because it makes him too much like Vulcan. Paul Snow >How known or understood are these rules of rune assignment to a >Gloranthan? Would a Humakti carve two death runes, and one truth, >on his sword because Humakti is known as the Origin of Death or >because Humakt is Death and Death killed man and then Death killed >plants? ( I know that that is perverting the story but use it as a >frinstance :-) ) He'd carve two death runes and one truth rune on his sword because that's the Runes that are carved on the entryway of his temple. I suspect only philosophers and pedants go into the details. In a very early writing by Greg, he stated that the Runes were largely unknown to the population at large. Initiates of temples learned their own cult Runes in big secret ceremonies, and that was about it. Most folks didn't even know that other religions had Runes, too, and thought that only their own society had this great secret. Obviously that's not the case in Third Age Glorantha, but it might have been in First Age. I like to think it was the Middle Seas Empire that spread knowledge of the Runes around the globe. I said: >>For instance, Mastakos has been given the Light Rune, but really >>this is a sort of honorary representation of the fact that he has a >>Secondary Fire Rune. CryptoMatt replies: >Fire Rune? Perhaps you mean Lokarnos instead of Mastakos. Argh. Yes of course I do. I make this stupid mistake all the time. Not only do the damn names sound alike, but they're both gods of movement. If only Mastakos had a more Orlanthi-sounding name. For some reason his name sounds Pelorian to me. I suspect that's part of the reason I confuse the two. Joerg says, in reference to the Heortlings: >"right in the middle of theist territory" is a funny definition for >people having Ancestor worshipping trolls to the north, quite >shamanistic Beast Riders to the East, a mix of Atheists to the >south, and a bay full of mermen to the west. I don't want to get mixed up in this discussion too deeply, but the "Ancestor-worshiping" trolls have gods and a cult structure, and most of them that deal with the PCs belong to the fairly conventional Argan Argar structure; the shamanistic beast riders to the east rarely interact with the Heortlings; the merman have regular gods (Triolina, etc.), and don't forget that just above the trolls and to the west of the trolls are the highly theistic cultures of Esrolia and Sartar respectively. I can't explain away the atheists so easily, tho. Nick Brooke sez: >someone else who claimed to officially know it [God Learner secret] >said that he could explain it in 5 words, but was rather put out >when I told him Greg said he could explain it in three! He demanded >to know if that included words like "the" or "and"! I could probably do it in three, WITH the following two principles: (1) the GL secret hasn't changed since I learned it. (2) the guy I was talking to knew a lot about Glorantha. >This makes me wonder what then is the analogue for the European >passion for pepper, which was incredible during the Renisance?? The "pepper" that was generally desired and sought after during the renaissance and middle ages was _Piper nigrum_, what we now call "black pepper" (though "white pepper" can also be made from it, as can green peppercorns). This spice comes from the East Indies, and has nothing in common with the true chili pepper, except that the Spanish explorers who discovered the chilis named them "peppers" in an attempt to get them popularized back home. After all, both were spicy, right? Since black pepper was so desired, why not make chili peppers just as desired? Nick firmly states: >I find the idea that all Malkioni saints are recognised and >worshipped by all of the sects ludicrous, and will not countenance >it. I don't agree. Here's why. Unlike Earthly saints, Malkioni saints give actual magic powers to their devotees. Clearly, there are no "false" saints, especially since any saint must gain his powers from the Invisible God. In the same way that St. Francis was accepted and beloved of the medieval Catholic church, despite the fact that his doctrines, teachings, and practices were alien and aberrant, even subversive, to their stern doctrines, Saint Rokar can be worshiped by the Hrestoli. All they need do is claim that the Rokari have "perverted" the original saint's teachings. In addition, I believe that mainstream Malkioni have the belief that any good Malkioni, of whatever sect, can attain Solace. Naturally, it's easiest in _insert_name_here_ sect. If you're a Hrestoli, a Rokari is not doomed of necessity, any more than if you're a good Russian Orthodox all Roman Catholics are doomed. Folk of all faiths recognize the "saintliness" of individuals like St. Francis, Gandhi, and Mother Theresa. While nits can be picked, I stand by the statement in GoG: "We Malkioni belong to many different castes and sects, but all of us recognize the divinity of a saint, no matter what sect he attained his sainthood through." Paul Reilly says: >I thought the Closing of Zzabur rolled over the islands of Jrustela >and scraped them clean. Nope. It was a huge battle vs. the Waertagi doomships, after which the Gift Bringers scarfed up the few survivors. The Closing of Zzabur wiped out the Waertagi, not Jrustela. Also, it wasn't "The Jrusteli Archipelago" before that battle -- it was "The Continent of Jrustela". It was a great big thing, rather pear-shaped. The remnants left now are pitiful. >We have Praxian food as being very hot. The plants that survived >had to ward off Chaotic herbivores and insects and the like ... >Peloria thus picked up its taste for spicy food during the Animal >Nomad occupation. This would certainly explain where the hot spices come from. If some Praxian plant (spicegrass?) produces cuisinary heat, perhaps it is the source of spicy food all over Genertela, leaving chili peppers to be discovered elsewhere (Pamaltela?) >How far back does the Hrestoli meritocracy go? The Loskalmi claim it's the original system according to Hrestol. The Rokari say that it _does_ resemble the original system, but that it wasn't Hrestol's idea, just an early attempt by idealists to re-organize the bad Brithini ways. The Rokari then fixed things up, and made them better. I said: >>There must be some green elves present. Alex responds: >This has always bothered me. Does this mean there is no >pure-broadleaf forests in all of Glorantha? You mean besides in the tropics? I dunno. Are there any pure-broadleaf forests in Europe? Everywhere I've traveled in North American I've seen some evergreens mixed in with the deciduous. For that matter, the reverse is also often true. In the high Sierras the fifth most common tree is a black oak. Of course, the first four most common are all conifers, but there's still enough black oaks that anywhere you look, you can see one. I said: >>I think Darktongue is largely instinctive. >If you want another datapoint, whale song/language has been shown >to vary quite widely, suggesting it's "cultural" rather than >instinctive. I suspect whale song is "personal", varying with the individual whale, rather than with the pod. Especially when you consider that a whale's song can be heard for hundreds, even thousands of miles under the sea (so I've read). This would imply that whales may have a species-wide "culture", which is what I'm suggesting for trolls. >For this to true, each newborn ukzo or enlo would have _complete_ >knowledge of the most subtle and abstract of trollish concepts. This doesn't mean learning can't be added atop the structure. Humans "learn" to walk, but the impulse to do so and the skills involved are still instinctive. I guess if you're just claiming that not every last thing in Darktongue can be instinctive, I'll buy that. >Is Peloria really very monoculturous? I'm sure all sorts of grains >are found in various places about Peloria, I'm sure this is true, but even if you get lots and lots of different kinds of grains, your diet is still fairly dull without any meat. And I believe that in much of Peloria, poor peasants get little meat, whereas I believe that an equally poor Orlanthi eats goat or venison on a fairly regular basis. Someone said: >>Light Priests may become Yelm the Elder members, their children may >>become Yelm initiates Alex felt (with reason): >I don't think this method works in general, else (pre-Lunar) Dara >Happa would be hip-deep in Yelm worshippers What if _only_ the kids a Light Priest had _after_ becoming a Yelm the Elder got to be Yelm candidates? Well, maybe not. --------------------- From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann) Subject: Eric Rowe has too much spare time Message-ID: <9405162018.AA10938@cabell.vcu.edu> Date: 16 May 94 20:18:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4034 Eric has done a massive and impressive job cataloging All People Pavic, plus some zombies. For well understood reasons, he has missed one thing: "Families - Eiskolli - Yelmalio - Leading family of Suntown. Garhound - Free - Sartar colonists. Leading Frees. Indagos - Pavis - Prominent Landholding family. Ingilli - Lunar - Leading family of Riverside, Imperials. Patroma - Lunar - Leading Lunar family. Rugbagian - Lunar - Owns Erigio's." Add "Rass" a family that belongs to the Indagos Clan. They live in H-56, as I recall. Check the River of Cradles description of Rich Hill. You'll have to bribe me to get me to explain why this family is the only change in the Pavic neighborhoods descriptions between Pavis Threshold to Danger and River of Cradles. The Rass are zebra breeders and of old Pavic blood. ----- Codex 2 goes to the printer this week, unless they are too backed up to make it worth taking there. But I am finished with all but a few finishing touches. If you want to get Codex #2 in a timely fashion, NOW is the time to subscribe. I'll be putting together one massive mailing, and then I'll probably be sick of licking envelopes for a week or two. Mike -- ------------ Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com for information about Codex Magazine. UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk "Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha" . ------------------------------------------------------/_\ --------------------- From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen) Subject: Sandy's campaign, now Message-ID: <9405170002.AA06167@idcube.idsoftware.com> Date: 16 May 94 12:02:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4035 WARNING: happenings in Sandy's campaign. In my own campaign, the players have now encountered and (in effect) defeated one of the Gift Carriers of the Sending Gods. While exploring the ruins of Frowal, Seshnela's Second Age capitol, they found a secret cavern containing a crystal sphere guarded by an immense leech-like Thing. By dint of luck, balls, and ignorance, they managed to get the sphere and get into their ship, the Thing chasing them all the time. The Thing did destroy one of their ships, but the PCs escaped in the other. Naturally, the Thing was one of the Gift Carriers, and 'twas guarding a Second Age artifact. (For those interested in dull rule stuff, I used a Call of Cthulhu Dhole for the leech's stats.) The Thing wouldn't give up, though the players' ship was able to keep ahead of it. They sailed north to Loskalm, and quickly sold the sphere to a wizard they'd had a previous run-in with. When the wizard found out about the Thing, he headed off immediately to Bad Deal to sell the sphere to the dwarfs there. Naturally, the Thing is now after the dwarfs. No doubt it will keep traveling around the world until it at last catches up with whoever has the sphere now. The sphere's power is to transform magic points and/or POW into physical objects. The PCs determined tat it is a piece of the World Machine, removed from some cosmic mechanism. The players conjecture that there is a companion object somewhere in Frowal which transforms physical objects into magic points, and are considering a search for it. --------------------- From: Argrath@aol.com Subject: Replies & Responses Message-ID: <9405162141.tn174033@aol.com> Date: 17 May 94 01:41:42 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4036 Gary Newton (isaac@twics.com) asks about compatibility of magic across the good old GL divisions. Greg Stafford has explained this as being like a development of an internal organ in a particular way, which is incompatible with development in any other way. A weaker analogy, which I came up with myself, is that it's like training yourself to be a doctor or a lawyer. The two fields are not mutually exclusive by any means, but their characteristic modes of thought are very different. There are a few people who have an M.D. and a J.D., but they're darn rare, and they don't generally practice in both fields at once. The spare-driving ways of Stygians are, indeed, a bother. The Henotheists have three different levels of involvement in the visible gods, from mere toleration to actual dual worship. (It's actually more complicated than that, but we're just talking about magic here.) Each tradition has its strengths and weaknesses, but none is so much more powerful than the rest that it dominates (or so we deduce from the fact that Ralians haven't conquered anybody near them, except for the Trader Princes who only faced disorganized clansmen). In game terms, one way to do it is to limit the spell lists of magicians so that they are roughly equal. The advantages of flexibility will be balanced by the disadvantage of having to learn all those sorcery skills. I don't think people should have both spirit magic and high sorcery, but they can mix the low spells with spirit magic. Remember that this is an RQ-level explanation--don't extrapolate to what the society does. Re: Heroplane Alex says, "assuming it has an 'objective' existance [sic]." You know what happens when you assume, don't you? Or is that just an American joke? "GoG is, all things considered, about the most God Learnerish book in existance." Alex is spot on. Alex on Peter: "Peter said 'What if there were a mythic "truce" or mutual understanding between Solar and Storm worshipers?' (pardon my paraphrase, Peter)." Well, I don't know if Peter will or not, but I think you ought to go back and look at what he wrote before you use that particular paraphrase. 'tain't what he said, nor even close. Nick in X-RQ-ID: 4011 finds the GoG statement of all-saints-to- all-cults ludicrous, and will not countenance it. Not that it matters, but let me suggest something which startles a lot of people when they first hear it. In Islam, Jesus and John the Baptist, along with the Hebrew prophets, are recognized prophets. I have a Muslim friend who believes in the virgin birth of Jesus. I admit I don't know of any muslims who honor St. Paul or any of the other apostles, but the GoG story is not as far-fetched as all that. Nick already knows this, thus his cladistic tree method of determining who your saints are. I admit I had trouble at first imagining Rokari, say, acknowledging a Boristi saint. How would they learn of him? Obviously only from Boristi... unless the saint makes himself known to all believers! In this scenario, his own divinity makes him known across sectarian lines. Or not. I really don't feel strongly one way or the other. And Nick has his usual gracious and so-relevant comments about the legal profession (whilst misreading what I said). Beats me why, when we're all friends here. Martin --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: Mindspeech; City Piety Message-ID: <199405170452.AA06758@radiomail.net> Date: 17 May 94 04:52:46 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4037 A question came up in my last game about Mindspeech. If A casts Mindspeech on B, it's real clear that A (the caster) can transmit whispered messages to B. Can B transmit messages back to A? I think as the spell is written, the answer is no -- "It will transmit only the thoughts intended for transmission *by the caster*." (In RQ2, the spell was two-way, and the statement about "open link" seems to be a holdover from this.) One answer might be to make a 2-way link cost 2 points (since the spell is variable). How do others play this? Alex Ferguson said >I've noted that city-dwellers are an irreverent lot. Weakened >clan structure, competing demands on your religious energies, the (ahem) >distractions of city life. Is it likely they are as zealous as their >Thunder and Brimstone country cousins? Nup. Another possibility is that city dwellers are a far more reverent lot. Right there, within walking distance, is a Major Temple. It's _easy_ to be religious! You don't have to walk two days just to get to a temple! You can show up every week! --------------------- From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Enchant [metal] Message-ID: <199405170707.AA10701@rimfaxe.diku.dk> Date: 17 May 94 11:07:40 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4038 I would think that Gustbran, god of smiths, would have enchant bronze, regardless of who he is related to. Bronze is the metal a smith would usually work with. Would a typical village orangesmith ever get to work iron? Klaus O K ---------------------