Bell Digest v940519p4

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 19 May 1994, part 4
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


---------------------

From: nh0g+@andrew.cmu.edu (Nils Hammer)
Subject: IG
Message-ID: <4hqer=q00VpF8Lx1o5@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: 18 May 94 16:07:39 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4067

I hope that the invisible god is not going to be inevitably tied to sorcery.
We would loose that lovely "what the shaman told me" description of
souls who haven't a system to keep them. ("ashes..drifting down")

I also like the character development option when your sorcerer starts
to get familiar with death and wonders if he should do something about
it. My sorceress Clio joined an odd weak cult that takes just about any
useful adherant. Since the god-plane part of the cult is still not fully
in power, spirits do not have a guarantee of going to the goddess at death
She knows that she must make it worth their while to have a cult spirit 
escort her to the big party in the afterlife. 

nh0g@andrew.cmu.edu
Nils K. Hammer

---------------------

From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: RE: Divine personalities
Message-ID: <940518211517109@thuemmel.com>
Date: 18 May 94 07:28:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4068


Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 4032
J> One of my main characterisations comparing lay membership to
initiatehood
J> is the question of the mutual commitment between deity and
worshipper.

This I agree with...  indeed I would go farther.  Initiation creates an
identification between a god and an initiate, such that the initiate
becomes identified with the god in every aspect of his life.

J> An initiate has made a commitment lasting past his death, a
commitment
J> which affects his soul, spirit or whatever. This affects his
afterlife,
J> but as well his spiritual life before death.

Again I totally agree.  The commitment to one Archtype is total.
Do you mean though that anyone not an initiate isn't 'going
to Heaven (or whatever is appropriate)'?

J> Being initiated into a certain cycle of myth allows participation in
J> these myths via reenactment, aka worship, or heroquest.
                                   ^^^^^^^
Does this last bit mean that lay worshippers can't worship?  I don't
really
think you mean this, but what do you mean?  Do you mean to imply that
ALL
forms of worship are essentially heroquests/reenactments?  (if this were
so Christian worship services would be alot more exciting!  ex:
"Todays reenactment is the serpent and the apple...  everyone
please remove your clothes..." ;^) )

J> (Most of these myths have their roots in Godtime, although by the
cyclical
J> nature of Time events within Time may become mythical as well.
Arkat's
J> struggle against Gbaji is the most prominent one.)

Arkat's struggle is most prominent in what way?  To which group of
worshippers (Worshippers of Arkat certainly, but not, Orlanth ???)
This sounds like an interesting idea... please expand on it.

J> A standard form of (religious) initiation is to a specific deity.
Except
J> in rare cases (like Humakt, or the majority of the Invisible God
sects)
J> there is no claim for exclusivity of this worship. In several cases
more

This is true in the case of lay worship, but being an initiate of more
than
one cult is asking for a visit from a spirit of retribution.

J>>> Is this worthy associated with e.g. Eiritha, Babeester Gor or other
J>>> associates of Ernalda? Since he uses oxen to plow, possibly with
Eiritha
J>>> If he tends an orchard, maybe even with Aldrya? Is he associated
with
J>>> the Lightbringers? With Heler? With Mastakos? Urox? Humakt? Valind?
C>>
C>> I think associate cults were created to address this exact point.
J>
J> The published lists don't answer my questions.

Yes that is true, but making up new myths to explain the relationships
seems less invasive than redoing the whole cult structure!  In your
example:  does the fellow really NEED any magic from these other gods?
I don't see that he does.  In that case with regard to those gods he
wishes to venerate/placate he can act as a lay worshipper.  Also your
point above about: "affects his soul, spirit... afterlife,"  applies.
Is this guy really going to have his "soul, spirit..."  affected by a
arbitrarily large number of gods?  Initiates "...pledge themselves
to the focus of a single divine entity." (CoP 7)

J> In Orlanthi society: if you are a male, act like Orlanth, if a
J> female, like Ernalda. If you are a plowman, act like Barntar, if a
J> charioteer, like Mastakos. If you're a warrior, act like one of the
J> following: Orlanth, Humakt, Heler, Elmal, the Thunder Brothers,
J> Urox, any greater hero.

Well I'd agree that the default if you're not an initiate of another
cult is 'act like Orlanth', but if you are a trickster would you still
act like Orlanth?  How about if you're a Storm Bull?  
So basically Orlanth would have almost all the people as lay members
(after all...  does the average farmer need Divine Magic?)  and
only exceptional types become initiated at all.

J> You are what you do, and what you do reflects your role model.
Sometimes,
J> as for the warrior, you have the choice how to do something, but
mostly
J> you are required to do what the master does.

Well, my impression of Orlanthi culture was that it was looser than
'you are required to do what the master does'.  Who is the
master?  Exactly how does this bit of social analysis relate?

Cullen

---------------------

From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: Peppers, various
Message-ID: <940518211520110@thuemmel.com>
Date: 18 May 94 07:35:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4069


Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4033 (Quoting me)
C>>This makes me wonder what then is the analogue for the European
C>>passion for pepper, which was incredible during the Renisance??
S>    The "pepper" that was generally desired and sought after
S> during the renaissance and middle ages was _Piper nigrum_, what we
S> now call "black pepper" (though "white pepper" can also be made from

I was aware that the pepper I was talking about was black pepper,
but thanks for the background!  I didn't know that was why red/chili
peppers are called that.  But my point still holds... in fact
a little later you gave me an idea:

Quoting Paul Reilly, I think?
P>>We have Praxian food as being very hot.  The plants that survived
P>>had to ward off Chaotic herbivores and insects and the like ...
P>>Peloria thus picked up its taste for spicy food during the Animal
P>>Nomad occupation.
S>
S>    This would certainly explain where the hot spices come from.
S> If some Praxian plant (spicegrass?) produces cuisinary heat, perhaps
S> it is the source of spicy food all over Genertela, leaving chili
S> peppers to be discovered elsewhere (Pamaltela?)

This gave me the idea that the reasons the Lunars invaded Prax
was to get at the hot spices they'd been paying through the nose for
before.  This is kinda similar to what actually hapened in the Far East
in The Real World, isn't it?

Then I thought...   some Lord or other uses this to get rich and then
doesn't support a continued presence since he now has the seeds.  The
idea that the 'real' reason the lunars went into Prax is to get at the
source of the spices is rather amusing.  Then having gotten their
seeds, the support for a 'continued presence in the region' kinda
wilted. ;^)

Cullen

---------------------

From: Gil555@aol.com
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <9405190007.tn265089@aol.com>
Date: 19 May 94 04:07:31 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4070

Please delete me from the mailing list.  Thanks.


---------------------