Bell Digest v940520p1

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 20 May 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


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From: gkca16@udcf.gla.ac.uk (S.Phillips)
Subject: "Hot"'n'spicy  early-morning earth-moving haggis-equipment
Message-ID: <9896.199405191209@rockall.cent.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 19 May 94 14:09:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4071

Hello from Sam
--------------

I seem to be getting my dailies in a bizzare order - replies before questions 
etc. Maybe I have fallen into a time-warp...warp...warp...arp...rp..p..p..

MOB: 
>I plead a late night's debauchery followed by early-morning
>earth-moving equipment over the back fence for fuddling my brain.

Is this some sort of Aussie euphemism for "calling on Hughie",
"Telephoning Dr. Hurl", .. etc?

Sandy: (on today's "heated" debate - arf!)
> In discussions of food ere now, I've used the term "spicy" to  
>mean "hot". By this I do NOT mean the food's actual temperature, but  
>the fierce burning you get from chomping down on a hot chili or  
>spoonful of white pepper. 

Dinnae ye patronise me, Sonny-jim. >;-(=)

>Anyone who's had Korean kim chee can  
>testify that a chilled food can be "hot". 
 
Absolutely, Mmmm! Slurp! As is the morning after's vindaloo or bowl of chili 
eaten cold with a flat half-tin of beer and a somewhat stale pitta or nan - The 
best hang-over cure I know ;-j ..but this isn't quite what I meant to be taking
issue with. I was trying to argue that the addition of a chili to a meal was 
not the *only* way of spicing up a bland meal and that many other cultures or
cuisines used other strong flavoured spices to add interest to a meal.

> If you think of Cloves and Nutmeg as "hot", you  must have a  
>very mild-tempered palate.

No. I'd sooner eat a chili than a handful of cloves - or a nutmeg. "Heat" is a
red herring here. Strong flavour is the thing. (or hallucinogenic properties in the case of the nutmeg - but that's a different matter).

You seem to be arguing that the addition of chili is the *only* way to make a
bland meal interesting. The addition of a chili to a bland meal only leads to a hot bland meal. Chili is nearly always added with other strong flavours eg lime,
cumin, lemongrass, cloves, cardomon, coriander, nam-pla,...

> Haggis is hot-flavored? I thought it was just oats and  
>tidbits boiled in a sheep tummy.

You obviously haven't eaten a good haggis :'-(  Perhaps I should bring a good
one to Convulsion? No, okay - they are not "hot" by Thai or Indonesian 
standards. But they are peppery and very strong flavoured. They are *not* just
old offal'n'oats (well they are but they don't taste like it) and they are
definitely *not* bland. Grrrrrrr... With a good malt whisky (or a good cheap
blend) they make a fine firey meal. The neeps are neccessary to cool the palate.


> The medieval recipes I've seen, including  
>descriptions of feasts, are NOT hot by Mexican, Indian, Szechuan, or  
>even Texan standards

Neither were Indian, Szechuan or Thai meals before the discovery of America.
But they *were* "spicy". It was the Europeans who introduced "hot" food to
the east.


Cullen O'Neill in X-RQ-ID: 4012 (filched from Joerg)
 
>> All (85%) Orlanthi males are initiated to Orlanth (KoS p.245f).
 
> To me the idea that 'All Orlanthi males' need to be actual
> initiates is ridiculous.  Most are probably just lay members.  I
> regard all information from KoS with suspicion anyway.
 
Why? What use are lay members within a culture? You are either *in* or you are
a weirdo and are therfore *out*. People get linched for less. I play (yes that
"p" word) that to the Sartarian Orlanthi clans there is a cheif god who all must
love, follow and obey (in much a similar way as you do your cheif and king). 
This does not mean you cannot hold an alternative view on some aspects. Orlanth
has many kin. Each hold different opinions. The Orlanthi are passionate people
and love a good argument. But at the end of the day the kinship is what holds
them together. If you do not see Orlanth as Rex then you cannot be kin. Be-Off!

Joerg:
>In Orlanthi society: if you are a male, act like Orlanth, if a 
>female, like Ernalda. If you are a plowman, act like Barntar, if a 
>charioteer, like Mastakos. If you're a warrior, act like one of the 
>following: Orlanth, Humakt, Heler, Elmal, the Thunder Brothers, 
>Urox, any greater hero.

Yes, yes yes!
I would add to this:
"If you are kin, honour the clan. If you are wise obey the chief".
 
Cullen?: 
> I think associate cults were created to address this exact point.
 
Yes. By Godlearners with their bizzare way of expressing things. What is an 
associate? There are kin and there are outsiders. There are freinds and there
are enemies. Anyone who does not recognise that Orlanth is the king of gods 
*cannot* be kin. In a predominately Orlanthi society any Orlanth associate 
religion would believe this. On the fringe they may play along to keep "in".
Outside, the normal rules for "association" may not hold at all.

I am sure that culture will effect association as much as religion. A young
Sartarian Uroxi may find it hard to embrace a Zorak Zorani as an "associate"
the first time he met one. For, how *could* he be kin? He eats babies.. Doesn't
he?

Keep the rules flexible. 
If you don't like it - change it. If you don't know it - make it up!

>Nick nobly requests:
>>Where does all this "foolish/peevish" stuff come from? Did I  
>>inadvertently do something to piss you off?
> Sorry. Just pulling your chain. Hadn't realized I'd picked on  
>you more than others. Must mean I like you more.  

Excuse me while I go for some early-morning earth-moving equipment over the 
back fence. This is the sort of thing that gives flame wars a bad name.

Happy eating.. Yum Yum!

Sam. x 
Not Scotland but Sartar.

p.s. Anyone else for Haggis?

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Cullen's reaction on my initiation bits
Message-ID: 
Date: 19 May 94 12:23:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4072

Cullen O'Neill in X-RQ-ID: 4068

> This I agree with...  indeed I would go farther.  Initiation creates an
> identification between a god and an initiate, such that the initiate
> becomes identified with the god in every aspect of his life.

That's Rune Lords. Initiates take their deity as a role model, but 
most of the time they fail to really identify.

And I think that there won't be any myths about Orlanth going to 
the lavatory, except if Eurmal was involved.

> Do you mean though that anyone not an initiate isn't 'going
> to Heaven (or whatever is appropriate)'?

Anyone not an initiate will have an afterlife as a spirit, as do the 
shamanic creeds, IMO. If you call the Hall's of Orlanth Heaven, no, he 
won't get there.

>J> Being initiated into a certain cycle of myth allows participation in
>J> these myths via reenactment, aka worship, or heroquest.
>                                    ^^^^^^^

> Does this last bit mean that lay worshippers can't worship? 

They can, but ineffectively so. Their attendance certainly serves the 
cult, and may gain the laymen good standing and access to temple 
facilities, but it won't effect their spiritual life if they aren't 
initiated to any religion. The thing is different for associate cults, 
whose participation in the friendly cults' worship ceremonies would even 
count towards their time requirement, and whose role is a lot more active.

> I don't really
> think you mean this, but what do you mean?  Do you mean to imply that
> ALL forms of worship are essentially heroquests/reenactments? 

All forms of worship hold elements of reenactments. When a christian 
priest spreads his arms, he _symbolizes_ among others the crucified 
Christ. Taking the bread and wine is an reenactment par excellence, 
maybe not very heroic.

> Arkat's struggle is most prominent in what way?  To which group of
> worshippers (Worshippers of Arkat certainly, but not, Orlanth ???)
> This sounds like an interesting idea... please expand on it.

The anti-Gbaji-campaign spanned all of known Genertela (face it: we 
know next to nothing about the far east), and involved all religions 
present at that time.

I've just played a pilgrimage following the route a band of 1st Age 
Hendriki rebels against Palangio the Iron Vrok had taken through 
Heortland, routing illuminate forces and finally joining Arkat's host 
on their way into Dragon Pass. Due to the presence of a few illuminated 
persons in the pilgrimage, the roles of routers and routed became muddled 
up, and the local spirits became some kind of headache, enough so to 
alarm the local spirit master and send his apprentice plus a band of 
youths at temple service to investigate.

The pilgrimage was an Orlanthi/Aeolian one, yet it involved the Arkat/Gbaji 
conflict. Regardless where you go in western and central Genertela, you will 
find repercussions of this.

> J> A standard form of (religious) initiation is to a specific deity.
> Except
> J> in rare cases (like Humakt, or the majority of the Invisible God
> sects)
> J> there is no claim for exclusivity of this worship. In several cases
> more

> This is true in the case of lay worship, but being an initiate of more
> than
> one cult is asking for a visit from a spirit of retribution.

Utterly wrong. It is perfectly possible to become initiated in as many 
mutually friendly cults as one can afford, without _any_ interference 
of retribution spirits. This is _not_ possible for Lord membership.
If you need an example, look at Bolthor Hairybreeks, King of the Bilini.

>C>> I think associate cults were created to address this exact point.

>J> The published lists don't answer my questions.

> Yes that is true, but making up new myths to explain the relationships
> seems less invasive than redoing the whole cult structure!  In your
> example:  does the fellow really NEED any magic from these other gods?

He'd need ploughing magic or Bless Crops, Hide Wealth to ensure the 
safety of the community's wealth, and whatever personal magic an Orlanthi 
needs to fend for himself and his family.

> I don't see that he does.  In that case with regard to those gods he
> wishes to venerate/placate he can act as a lay worshipper.  Also your
> point above about: "affects his soul, spirit... afterlife,"  applies.
> Is this guy really going to have his "soul, spirit..."  affected by a
> arbitrarily large number of gods? 

I see his afterlife as a member of Orlanth's Stead, where all of these 
deities dwell.

> Initiates "...pledge themselves
> to the focus of a single divine entity." (CoP 7)

I can't say when initiates to more than one cult first occured in RQ, 
but they are present in Griffin Mountain, so this is no RQ3 innovation.

> J> In Orlanthi society: if you are a male, act like Orlanth, if a
> J> female, like Ernalda. If you are a plowman, act like Barntar, if a
> J> charioteer, like Mastakos. If you're a warrior, act like one of the
> J> following: Orlanth, Humakt, Heler, Elmal, the Thunder Brothers,
> J> Urox, any greater hero.

> Well I'd agree that the default if you're not an initiate of another
> cult is 'act like Orlanth', but if you are a trickster would you still
> act like Orlanth?  How about if you're a Storm Bull?  
> So basically Orlanth would have almost all the people as lay members

As associates, at least. As a Storm Bull, you'd still reply to clan 
structure, clan laws etc. like all Orlanthi. You're set apart as special 
hirdman, but while your drunkenness, upsetting behaviour and wanton 
cruelty is recognized, in all other regards you are expected to function 
as a member of the society laid out by Orlanth.

As a Eurmali, you need to swear allegiance to an Orlanthi, and follow 
his orders in a way most amusing and disturbing (e.g. by ignoring them), 
but Eurmal isn't an original member of Orlanth's stead, he became so 
after the LBQ.

> (after all...  does the average farmer need Divine Magic?) 

Yes. Bless Crops is essential for economy ever since Genert died. And 
a single acolyte of the Grain Goddess can only cast so many points as 
she has, plus one more for each two days. If she had to provide all spells 
for say 50 steads answering to her shrine, each demanding one or two 
points of Bless Crops, the last of these would receive their blessing 
when the harvest is in. This is why farmers need reusable Bless Crop 
spells, if only regained every second year (allowing for failed ceremony 
rolls).

> and only exceptional types become initiated at all.

This contradicts most sources. Only extremely unexceptional individuals 
(trollkin) regularly turn up as lay members.

> Well, my impression of Orlanthi culture was that it was looser than
> 'you are required to do what the master does'.  Who is the
> master?  Exactly how does this bit of social analysis relate?

Your sworn leaders. Read KoS, report on the Orlanthi, for details.

If you ask the elders, Orlanthi society is as stiff as Dara Happan 
protocol. Luckily, the elders are just one facet of the society.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (The Lawnmower Man)
Subject: Haggis
Message-ID: <01HCIKP7NVYQ9PM2FT@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 19 May 94 02:40:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4073

>	Haggis is hot-flavored? 
You're right, it's not spicy, but it's certainly...pungent. :)


--Scott "Veggie Haggis" Haney

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Saints et al
Message-ID: 
Date: 19 May 94 13:03:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4074

Gary Newton in X-RQ-ID: 4053

> Argrath (Argrath@aol.com) mentioned something I haven't heard of before (not
> too difficult to do, if the truth be known... ) - High and Low Sorcery.
> Que? 

A RQ:AiG concept. Low Sorcery are spells to be cast by the masses, while 
High Sorcery is the province of wizards.

> Also, I figured that with all those wild
> and barbarous Orlanthi skulking around the borders, Henotheism, particularly
> in western Safelster, might have more than a small dose of Orlanth influence.

In Otkorion, the Henotheist Church almost certainly is strongly Orlanth-
influenced. They even imported the hero (saint?) Siglolf Cloudcrusher.

> The following is what I came up with (sort of a la Joerg's Aeolians, I 
> s'pose. Solidarity, Joerg! m(^v^)m  ):

Thanks, I needed that.

> "In the beginning, God created the world. He created every living thing, 
> every tree and every bird, every cloud and every stone. And when He had 
> created the world, He breathed His life into it. And His Breath moved over 
> the world, breathing life into everything it touched. And from His Breath
> God created the Host of Angels to help Him tend His creation, and He assigned
> to them their proper duties and places in the world. That is why our priests
> speak of the Trinity of the Creator, Host, and Breath of God, and that is
> why there are three corners to the First Rune made by the Lord."

Angels, not saints? Neat. I could have used that, too, and saved a lot of 
heated argument.

> Incidentally, I've worked up three of this "Angelic Host" for the Church in
> Estali, the so-called Angelic Orders. These are; the Lord of Swords
> (essentially Humakt); the Great Green Lady (Ernalda - see above); and the
> White Lady (aka Chalana Arroy).

> Now, the Friars / Reverend Mothers of these Angelic Orders certainly have
> access to Divine Magic, _but_ (and here's where I get vague...) do I just
> stick to Sorcery for the "Prayers" of the Orders (same as the Prayers of
> the mainstream Church itself - Henotheist IG with a touch of Orlanth), or
> do I attempt to tackle Spirit Magic too? ...Heeeelllp... * pathetic flailing 
> of arms and much tearing out of hair *...

I've decided to allow an either/or course, but then the theist element in 
Heortland is stronger. I don't think the combination sorcery plus spirit 
magic works well.


Scott Lawnmower in X-RQ-ID: 4054

> I'm not sure I follow the logic on this one, Joerg--nothing you 
> stated above seems to support your assertion that the saints convey 
> powers to worshippers.   (It may be that you and I don't use the word 
> "convey" in the same way here.)  

They may not give the powers as DIY kits, but if you look at how divine 
magic works, essentially it is the deity channeling its power through 
the initiate/priest at the moment the initiate asks.

> Earthly saints certainly performed miracles (after all, a miracle or 
> three is required for canonization nowadays), but I don't recall any 
> case of a saint granting a miraculous power or ability to someone 
> else, particularly after that saint's death.  People pray to saints 
> for *intercession*, but to me this is not the same as having that 
> saint grant or convey some magical power.  It's more a case of 
> (minor) divine intervention rather than a granting of rune magic, to 
> put it in game terms.

Divine Intervention was a Rune Spell in RQ2. In the current development 
of AiG it is handled via divine spells of the deity. I think the 
borders are fuzzy. Plus Earth is a less magical place than Glorantha.

> Of course, there are places like Lourdes, but again, that's not a 
> saint granting powers *to* a worshipper, but rather using powers *on* 
> a worshipper.  (And Lourdes itself is more like a big ritual 
> enchantment done by the saint...no further action required by other 
> worshippers.)

They need to come the prescribed way, i.e. participate actively in 
the ceremony. In RQ terms, the result of the ceremony is a spontaneous 
one-use divine spell to be cast in the ceremony.


Jonas Schiott in X-RQ-ID: 4055

>>Or does 
>>even a theist priest's or a shaman's power ultimately derive from 
>>the Invisible God, according to Malkioni doctrine? In this case 
>>there are no false gods, only gods pretending to be Saints.

> You mean "saints pretending to be gods", don't you? If not, I don't
> understand your concept of "god" in this context.
 
I should have said gods whose cultists worship them as saints, and 
(in case of False Gods) forgetting the Creator/Invisible God.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: yeah
Message-ID: 
Date: 19 May 94 13:04:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4075

Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4059

> 	Now see here, my rejection of the Trinity as an important  
> Malkioni concept doesn't mean that the number Three can't be  
> important. I was just rejecting the thought that the Invisible God is  
> mystically divided into three personalities.

How about different aspects, then?

In case of the Aeolians, this was a convenient way to make Orlanth 
worship both universal and a way to worship the Invisible God.

>> I side with Nick: if we cannot argue about the teachings of a Saint,  
>> Malkionism is too dull.
> 	Despite my belief that all the various sects of Malkionism  
> generally accept all Saints, I concur that there is avid and  
> acrimonious debate about their teachings. 

Compromise dawning...

> re: Saints & their universality
>>> I don't agree. Here's why. Unlike Earthly saints, Malkioni  
>>> saints give actual magic powers to their devotees.

> Joerg replies:
>> Dangerous territory, I know, but most Earthly Saints are credited 
>> with miracles, which are nothing else but magic.
> 	Miracles however are deniable and unreliable, unlike  
> Gloranthan magic. 

Following the general trend the Earth magic is less reliable and 
proveable than Gloranthan magic.

>> Even if you belong to a sect committed to the primal sin of Tapping?
> 	Okay, I'll back down a little bit. I now believe that there  
> ARE certain "Saints" accepted by fringe heresies that are rejected by  
> the mainstream sects. These obscure saints may have tapped, or some  
> other crime. 

Triumph!

>> In Gloranthan words, Chalana Arroy is a recognized saintly  
>> individual in Malkioni society?
> 	Chalana Arroy is a goddess, not a person. She doesn't really  
> count. Elamle-ata, the Healer (super)Hero of Pamaltela, would be  
> recognized as a saintly individual by the Malkioni, or indeed by  
> anyone in Glorantha.

From a Malkioni point of view, wasn't Chalana Arroy a well-meaning 
healer wizard who became so obsessed with Healing that she forgot 
the real purpose of worship and made her followers worship Healing 
instead? (To parallel the Humct write-up in Prosopaedia.)


To metallurgy:
> 	The going assumption in the Chaosium house campaigns has  
> always been that working Gloranthan bronze is like unto working the  
> Earthly substance, though we generally believe that Gloranthan bronze  
> is probably higher quality than the bronze you get in the 20th  
> century. However, we do know that some Glorantha bronze does NOT  
> require the step of smelting tin and copper, because it's found as  
> pure bronze veins in the ground. 

Being a chemist with geological interest, excuse me if I ask obnoxious 
questions:

These pure bronze veins: are they mined as metal, or as ore? If mined as 
metal, will bronze items corrode? If buried? Are these veins still bone-
shaped? If not, what kept them from corroding? If so, I can accept that 
a deity's remains aren't subject to mundane corruption unless forcibly 
parted; but wouldn't it be sacrilegious in this case to break up one's 
ruling deity's family remains for selfish mundane use?

If there is bronze ore, would this be similar to brass "ore" (actually 
a mixture of copper and zinc ores)?

And although bronze doesn't require the mixing of Sky (tin) and Earth 
(copper), it can be won thus.

But if broonze does not require beating the way steel does, will the 
Gloranthan redsmith have a large anvil at all? Will he have a furnace? 
Why would he be associated with fire, if the fire wasn't needed to 
"extract" the metal from the ore? Just for melting?

Will there be layered bronze items (damascened) for sharpness? If so, 
how would the layers differ from each other? Tin-copper ratio?
(With damascened iron it is the carbon content that varies.)
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Lost souls
Message-ID: 
Date: 19 May 94 13:04:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4076

Nils Hammer in X-RQ-ID: 4067

> I hope that the invisible god is not going to be inevitably tied to sorcery.
> We would loose that lovely "what the shaman told me" description of
> souls who haven't a system to keep them. ("ashes..drifting down")

This would still apply to the Brithini (and most probably the Vadeli) 
who don't believe in any afterlife, and who don't get one as consequence.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de