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To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 25 May 1994, part 2
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From: jclannom@mathlab.mtu.edu (Joe Lannom)
Subject: Initiation scenario outlines
Message-ID: <9405241429.AA16519@mathlab.mtu.edu>
Date: 24 May 94 14:29:25 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4130
Joerg scribbled in the 5-14 daily:
> I "_need_" the following partly, not totally independent mechanisms about
> initiation:
>
> - pantheon initiation
> - religious initiation accompanying adulthood initiation
> - childhood pre-initiation
I've been thinking about orlanthi initiation lately (finally got and read
most of KoS.. still working on it. I just got it saturday!).
The Orlanthi seem to be very impressed with the ability to get things done.
Not just the ability but the action itself, and the importance that it has.
Saving a sheep is just fine and dandy, but saving kin from some big drooling
monster with big nasty teeth is even better!
So... thinking more about the way the tribes work, and how they interact with
their world... there are two ways that the priests could get someone to
prove themselves more worthy of their sponsorship.
One is to setup a scenario where the 'initiate' is forced to use skills
worthy of a good orlanthi, or use knowledge of the pantheon to get out of a
fix. This implies solid structure and predetermined fate and can be fixed by
crooked priests or eurmal wanna-bes. The rigid structuring seems more inline
with what a Yelm worshipper would do, not something from Orlanth, the
original god of freedom!
So, the second way I like better, which is this. Since they live in usually
strife ridden lands, clans raid each other, monsters wander out of the
wilderness, oppressive governments squat upon their homelands... there are
plenty of opportunities and situations that call for orlanthi skills to just
stay alive!!
The first time a boy rescues a sheep using a stick or sword or javelin,
hurray! The priests recognize him as a worthy member of the cult and simply
perform the ritual which is a recitation of the myth where orlanth did much
the same things as the child (rescued someone dear to him, or challenged an
unfair situation). The child sees himself acting like orlanth and is filled
with pride and strives to be even BETTER at it. He gains a greater status in
the clan, more responsibility and, hopefully, more maturity.
Another scenario for childhood initiation would be contests such as the Gods
do to prove themselves against each other. Dancing, music, weapons... the
winner of each of these yearly contests is eligible to go through the
initiation.
As for religious initiation accompanying adulthood, there are many more
situations where someone could be personally wronged by the world. A loved
one is stolen from within the camp, a father is killed, a mother slighted...
Leading a group of people, solving an argument within the clan, these are the
things that not only lead to initiation as an adult, but also to a specific
facet of the many faces of Orlanth. Someone with a solid head that has kept
peace within the tribe and gotten everyone to work together could be an
Orlanth Rex initiate, or a lawspeaker. Someone who has travelled and brought
back riches that increase the clans status, orlanth adventurous.
In each of the above cases, the person must perform an act proving them
worthy of initiation. This shows initiative, ability, and what I feel would
be the most important facet to ANY orlanthi, independence.
I for one would like to play/run an individual character that started as a
child, with a child's skills and run (with large yearly gaps, each 3 years
getting a skill roll perhaps) it until adulthood. Such background! Strong
ties to the clan with which you've worked, without whom you wouldn't have
lived, without whom you would have no identity, no ring.
Ok, I've got my summer project now... a series of childhood adventures for
Orlanthi. And to think, I was actually wondering what I was going to do with
all my free time....
joe lannom
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From: mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com (boris)
Subject: A Secret Society
Message-ID: <199405241528.AA10816@batman.b11.ingr.com>
Date: 24 May 94 15:27:58 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4131
Submitted for your approval...
From the early days of RuneQuest, secret societies and shadowy groups
have been talked about. Argrath is said to be a member of several such,
and the "Cold Wind Movement" is mentioned in RQAG. However, I have never
seen any information describing such a society, or anything that would
help a GM use one in a game. So, I made up my own, the Temple of the
Black Wind. Any comments, criticisms, or suggestions for improvement
are definately welcome; I am certainly not an expert on masonic orders
or mystery cults, and my research may be faulty.
The Temple of the Black Wind is a secret society first formed among the
Kitori tribes of the Heortland. It is somewhat similar to the masonic
societies of our world, or the ancient mystery cults, with layered
initiation and much ritual and mysticism.
Very few people outside of the society know of it. It has reasonable
relations with the Cold Wind Movement in Sartar. Most of it's members
are initiates of one or more of the various Heortland cults, including
Orlanth, Vinga, Humakt, Arkat, Issaries, Argan Argar, and Kyger Litor.
First Circle: The Evening Breeze
Member Title: Scouts
Description: Initiates of this circle are probationary, and will be
scrupulously checked before elevation to higher circles is allowed.
The only purpose of the Temple revealed to these initiates is to
promote better relations between humans and trolls. Not even the fact
that higher circles exist is revealed to these. Sometimes, if a
person is trusted well, this level of initiation is skipped, though
the lore must then be learned at the next level.
Requirements for Initiation: An interest in trolls, and an adventurous
nature.
First Circle Lores: Speak Darktongue, Troll Custom
Second Circle: The Night Wind
Member Title: Templars
Description: Initiates of this level are true initiates, though still
watched carefully. They are told that the organization has ties to
the Cult of Arkat, it's goal is to explore Trollish and Orlanthi
magics, and it is militant in nature. It is revealed that the Order
has both troll and human members, and that there are four Circles of
initiation in the Temple.
Requirements for Initiation: No obvious pro-Lunar feelings, and knowledge
(30%+) of the First Circle lore.
Second Circle Lores: Read/Write Darktongue, Kite Flying (Manip, Easy),
Troll Lore, Storm Lore, Speak Stormspeach, Read/Write Stormspeach
Third Circle: The Midnight Gale
Member Title: Scholars
Description: Initiates of this level must sacrifice POW to the Spirit of
the Temple (which seems to be an Umbroli, or storm demon). It is
revealed to them that the Temple is an anti-lunar movement. They
learn that the Temple has shamans, priests, and sorcerors as members,
and combines elements of all three. Sorcery teaching is offered to
any who wish to learn, as are divine and spirit magics, bound spirits,
and arcane lores, such as alchemy.
Requirements for Initiation: Must take an active anti-Lunar stance, which
will be found from missions taken as a Templar. Must sacrifice 1 POW
to the spirit of the Temple. Must have knowledge of (30%) two Second
Circle lores and be an expert (60%) in the First Circle lores.
Third Circle Lores: Blind Fighting (Per, Hard), Orienteering (Per, Hard),
Kite Piloting (Agi, Medium), Temple Cant (Com, Easy), Play Drums,
Play Bullroarer.
Fourth Circle: The Black Storm
Member Title: Masters
Description: All of the leaders of the Temple appear to be of this Cirlce
to all lower initiates; the existance of higher circles is concealed
from them. Learn of many secret, hidden, and magical paths and trails;
*must* learn Darkwalk *and* Mistcloud. It is revealed that the spirit
of the Temple is a powerful Demon crossbreed of Darkness and Storm
named Dehumbrol, bred by heroquest and directly descended from Kolat
and Dehore. Must learn the ritual to summon the spirit.
Requirements for Initiation: Good performance on as a Scholar, and be an
expert in five second or third circle lores. Must face Dehumbrol and
be accepted by it (the Master may be granted an allied spirit if this
goes well). Most are usually either a shaman, rune lord, acolyte,
priest, or magus.
Fourth Circle Lores: Summon Dehumbrol, Command Darksylph, FearShout,
Various Rituals, Temple Lore, Temple Script.
Fifth Cirlce: HellStorm
Member Title: The Questers
Description: At this Circle are taught Arkati secrets that have been
recovered, including some heroquesting skills. Secrets of saint's
blessings are taught, specifically those of Arkat, Talor, and Himile
(Saint Himile blessing is a variation on Gerlant's; Iceblade).
Secrets of illumination are tought, though actual illumination is
discouraged. Learn that Arkat was an illuminate; learn some more
heroquesting rituals.
Requirements for Initiation: Must have participated in a particular
heroquest with the Temple Examiners. Must have mastered five skills
of the lower Circles.
Fifth Circle Lores: Arkati Lore, Aeolian Lore
Sixth Circle: The Sunbane
Member Title: The Chosen
Description: This is the inner circle, the ones who have proven most
trustworthy and worthy to the Temple. All members of the Sixth and
Seventh circles have taken mighty oaths to prevent betrayal, and most
have minor demons, spawn of Dehumbrol, as allies and helpers. These
are the teachers and keepers of the secrets of the Temple. Most are
illuminated (know your enemy). There are currently seven members.
All are heroquesters and they currently train with the Seventh Circle
for a mighty quest to gain power to use against the Lunars.
Requirements for Initiation: Must be chosen by the High Priest for
advancement to this level. Must have expertise in all lower lores and
mastery of seven of them.
Seventh Circle: Skystormer
Member Title: High Priest of the Black Storm
Description: There is only one Grand Master at any given time; the
current one founded the Temple after she heroquested to breed
Dehumbrol. If she ever retires or is killed, her replacement will be
voted on by all members of fifth and sixth circles. Only the inner
circle know the identity of the Grand Master, who is Chieftain Melrode
of one of the Kitori clans, kinswoman of the Kitori King.
In my game, I have a PC and an NPC who are members, and have been sent to
Pavis to see if there's fertile ground for the Temple there; given the
close proximity of trolls and humans, this is regarded as a good place to
recruit. Both are Third Circle members; I expect the PC will approach
most of the other PCs about joining. Of course, he can raise them to no
higher than Second Circle level himself, so will either have to return to
Heortland to get elevated to Fourth Circle (and learn the summoning ritual
for Dehumbrol) or send for a Fourth Circle Master when time comes for them
to advance. Such should provide a few adventure seeds.
----
Boris
---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: various
Message-ID: <9405241846.AA17111@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 24 May 94 06:46:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4132
Devin Cutler asks:
>I would also be curious as to what kinds of compaigns the "scholars"
>are running.
I run a world-spanning non-heroic campaign. Any heroism and
world-shattering activities the PCs have to do on their own nickel. I
feel that this enhances their feeling of accomplishment should they
succeed. The party currently consists of: 6 Ygglinga; 1 snow troll
who was stranded on the island when the ice melted last spring, and
made friends with the locals; and 1 wandering friar from Nolos
(Rokari: Wizard: finds caste strictures hard to obey).
The Ygglinga are a variety of religions. Their island decided
that Ygg had failed them, and was seeking for another Way. Some of
the PCs decided that the Orlanthi pantheon from Junora was pretty
similar to Ygg, but more powerful (so we have two Orlanthi, a
Humakti, and a Storm Bull). Another faction of the PCs decided that
the gods were worthless -- look at Ygg, after all. So they became
Ancestor Worshipers. (There'd been a certain amount of Ancestor
Worship in Ygg's faith already, so it wasn't hard to switch.)
I admit I too dislike campaigns where everyone starts off
some weird incompatible thing, but I _like_ campaigns where everyone
starts off compatible, and as new characters join the party (through
death or retirement), they are from the local area. This means that
as the campaign progresses, the party gets more and more mixed up.
However, the older PCs, who would normally be the most incompatible,
as they come from the most distant lands, are also the most
cosmopolitan, from their journeying.
Someone asked how to do the training and catchup time. We skim over
it as fast as possible. Usually the shaman spends time searching for
spirits to bind, while the other PCs train in Ceremony or some other
simple task. I'm not too generous about what types of Training are
available in an area, so the PCs do a lot of Research, or train one
another (if skilled enough). But all the training, etc. that we do
rarely takes more than 5-10 minutes, even including the shaman's
spirit combats, and then the rest of the evening can be spent being
chased around by triceratops men or whatever.
Glen Bailey wants to know about thieves:
>Thieves (okay, Eurmal worshippers). I'm a little confused on their
>actual "worshipping".
Okay, here's an essay on Gloranthan thief organizations.
Glorantha does not have the so-called "Thieves' Guild", a
creation of Fritz Leiber, who invented it in a (successful) attempt
to demonstrate that his city of Lankhmar was _so_ old and decadent
and hide-bound that even the _thieves_ had a "guild!" Then TSR
idiotically assumed that every city had a thieves guild, even
inventing a special character class. Ludicrous, IMO.
All over Glorantha, cultures are afflicted by the social
parasites of thievery. Most lands do not have organized crime, But
some do. Pavis, for instance. Fonrit actually boasts a
multi-city-state organization (highly unusual).
Okay, so who are the thieves? As I see it, there are three
basic types of thieves. The most common type everywhere is the "lone
wolf", or "adventurer" type. The next type I recognize are those
crooks that belong to a "gang". The third are those who belong to a
true crime "cult".
FIRST: the lone wolf. This doesn't mean he operates solo --
just that he has no connections with any organization outside his own
small band. In Sartar, who are the thieves and robbers? Well,
Tricksters perpetrate lotsa petty theft, but I don't see them as
pulling off many "big jobs". Most Sartarite thieves are probably
Orlanthi, driven to burglary by poverty, outlawry, lack of scruples,
or war. In my campaign, there is no organized crime in Sartar or even
Tarsh. Bandits, yes. But one group of bandits has no real connections
with any other group except for occasional friendship. America's Wild
West bandits, or England's 18th-century highwaymen are fine examples
of these guys. Griselda and Wolfshead and their friends are this type
of guy. Many PCs operate basically as this category of
thief/robber/bandit.
SECOND: the "gang" member. The Black Fang group is well-known
as an example of just how bad things are in Pavis, and of course the
Black Fangers sometimes visit Sartar. In Sartar, Black Fang is mostly
known as an assassin's guild, since that's what they do there. But in
Pavis, they have their fingers all over the place. Black Fang is a
pyramid organization, with one (or a very few) rulers at the top,
controlling the shamans, who in turn control most of the members.
Everyone who worships Black Fang in essence is under the thumb of the
gang's "leaders".
Most "Gang" organizations in Glorantha I imagine are social
or otherwise secular, with no real cult organization. Black Fang is
an exception. The Lamsabi thief network is probably a gang
organization like this one, though it's hard to prove.
Most civilized thief "cults" basically consist of a group of
criminals in some old populous city who have found a common hero,
spirit, or other entity which provides them with magic powers. I
predict that even as Black Fang acts as the focus for a spirit cult,
that there is a forbidden thief "Saint" worshiped in Northpoint or
Tanisor by Malkioni burglars.
THIRD: cult activity. I suspect that the Lunar Empire's main
criminal network is the Krarsht organization, most members of which
have no idea they're worshipers in a chaos cult. The alarming feature
of a Cult criminal group is that it cannot easily be ferreted out or
prevented. Since there is no single cult leader, a temple can be
started up anywhere. The Atyar aspect of the Thanatar cult is also
this type of organization, at least in Kralorela.
Not all Glorantha criminal cults are chaotic in nature, of
course. Most are probably not, like Lanbril.
Martin Crim says:
>Isn't there a contradiction between saying peasants can up sticks
>and leave, on the one hand, and saying that each society is
>controlled by an oppressive military-religious cabal?
Not really. I feel that Gary Newton was trying to say that,
since peasants could easily leave, some societies reacted by becoming
even more amazingly harsh, and (mis)using religion to keep their
peasants in line. Thus using not only physical, but mystical
pressures to hold onto their folks.
I felt the situation faced by Safelster's leaders could be
approached in two ways. Consider East and West Germany before
reunification. Neither nation had much emigration. West Germany
didn't lose skilled workers because they were well-off in their own
country. Why leave? East Germany didn't lose skilled workers because
they laid a minefield & barbed wire all round the border, and had
plenty of secret police keeping an eye on everyone. Both techniques
"worked", though obviously we think one is the better solution, and I
can see both solutions "working" in Safelster. Compare to England's
Brain Drain from the 1950s and '60s, in which many of Britain's "best
and brightest" fled to the Land of Opportunity to escape their home
nation's dismal economy (and presumably, cooking ;) )
Dave Dunham mentions:
>Surely [Lodril's] Pamaltelan worship is very different from how he's
>treated in Peloria. I suspect he didn't make Agimori in Pelorian
>myth, and in Pamaltelan myth, the solar brothers might be unknown.
>And what about his worship in Teshnos?
Certainly emphasis is placed on different parts of Lodril's
worship in Pamaltela than in Peloria. But if a Pamaltelan Lodril
worshiper came to Peloria, and claimed that all the Agimori people
were manufactured by Lodril, the Pelorians probably wouldn't
contradict the statement. The solar brothers may not be known in
Pamaltela, but a Yelm priest announcing Lodril's relationship to the
Sun might be accepted (if misunderstood).
I think that Lodril in Pamaltela provides pretty much the
same spells as in Peloria, and he also has priests and acolytes. I
wouldn't be surprised to find that different skills were emphasized
in cult membership and, since he's considered a war god in Pamaltela
(and Teshnos, I think), a "Rune Lord" status might be added to the
cult structure. Pamaltela may also have a way to add shamans into the
cult structure (non-Rune spell receiving shamans, IMO). But such
alterations I view as well within the parameters of societal
differences. The rune spells are still the same, the lowfires are
still part of the cult, the spirit of retribution is probably still
the same. But other subcults, the addition of a Rune Lord, and a
shaman status, and different skills all would work towards making the
cult look different, I agree.
Sandy
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: Point Counterpoint
Message-ID: <01HCPX4OCXKI8WWHFS@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 24 May 94 09:22:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4133
We join our debate in the midst of a spirited discussion about
initiation and pantheons and subcults, etc.
Jane Curtin: Dan, I think that pantheistic initiation is the way to
go. I don't want to force each Orlanthi to spend twice
the POW to get the same utility out of their cults that
each Lodrili gets out of their single cult. It just
doesn't make sense.
Dan Akroyd: Jane, you ignorant slut. First of all, it's
pantheONistic, not pantheistic. Where did you learn
about religion anyway, from the "Big Book of Evil
Foreign Cults"? Second, I must take exception to your
inappropriate use of Lodrili to characterize (or so I
must assume) the Pelorian peasantry. They are not
Lodrili, they are Lodrillinga and you can't say a single
damn thing to convince me otherwise. Finally, until you
can find a cure that isn't worse than the disease I
don't want to hear any more of your insipid snivelling.
Jane: Cure worse than the disease? What kind of hallucinogen
have you been putting in your enema this week, Dan?
Dan: Get a grip, missy. It's a hard world and you gotta learn
to act like a man---as I have done.
Jane: Oh yeah? I read your name in the ladies room and the
phrase "impotent but likes to be spanked" was following
it.
Dan: Jane you bitch! You've crossed the line now!
Moderator: All right, you two. Stop it right now. Stop insulting
each other, and stop it with those useless and
eye-glazing point-by-point-by-counterpoint arguments.
Summarize your opponent's argument and respond to it all
at once in a lucid manner. I don't know how you expect
anyone to follow such an exchange, and honestly I doubt
that you can follow it yourself.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite