From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Wed, 25 May 1994, part 3
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: RQ evangelizing and publishing adventures
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 18:45:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4134
David Cheng in X-RQ-ID: 4124
The High Priest of the missionary order of Glorantha has emerged again.
> I always thought that the RPGA was a really good idea, spoiled by those
> silly experience points for Players & DMs (and the quality of some of
> the submissions).
I don't know why you don't get organized then in your respective home
countries. Over here in Germany we have the Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft
e.V. (German RQ-society) in which I happen to be on the board. This
initiative started officially in 1992 when a group of 15 RQ fanatics
met in Cologne and founded the society. Right now we have some 80
members, and are expanding. Last weekend Nick Brooke and David Hall
joined in...
The core group of RQers to become the society were the people from the
German RuneQuest-Cons held annually since 1990. At first, the society
only institutionalized this convention circuit, and decided to produce a
fanzine, the Free INT. Now we have expanded our activities a bit. We
took over the European distribution of RQ-Adventures, we ran a RuneQuest
stand at the German games fair in Essen (we hope to do so this year as
well), and our latest project just has seen the light: a scenario booklet
usable for RuneQuest (set in Sartar), produced by us, distributed by
Welt der Spiele, the German company publishing RuneQuest (at about
the same rate as AH). For those who can read German, this 44 pages strong
booklet is called "Schatten in den Huegeln" (shadows in the hills),
contains four fully fledged scenarios for RQ. Welt der Spiele has the
monopoly of trading these, so inquiries should go to them:
Welt der Spiele, Am Martinszehnten 5, 60437 Frankfurt, Germany.
We may distribute a small subset among our members, though.
Why do I tell you this? Apart from advertising our products, I think
that the other RQ-communities could use some sort of organisation as
well. The (San Francisco) Bay Area RuneQuest Federation (BARF) certainly
is the way how to tackle the problem of conecting a few islands of
RuneQuest activities which each other, and to expand them. Why aren't
there any elsewhere?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Binary sight?
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:11:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4135
Sandy in X-RQ-ID: 4096
> I can only point out that in this very Daily that folks have
> claimed that the Malkioni dislike and hate all the theists.
This doesn't mean they don't trade with them, or that they burn them
on sight. Glorantha isn't black and white monochrome, it's a colourful
world.
> Regardless of the point, even if the Rokari "only" pillory Hrestoli
> and other non-Rokari Malkioni, this tends to limit the available fun
> area to play in. After all, if your PCs roll up a bunch o' Hrestoli,
> and they decide to travel, one of the likely spots to visit is Ralios
> and Seshnela.
And for very good reasons. Just don't expect a joyous reunion with
the lost sons in every Malkioni temple. We know that lots of Stygian
pilgrims move through Seshnela. I think the locals complain about the
bloody tourists, but have come to enjoy the quick penny they can earn
catering to them.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Double measure?
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:13:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4136
Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4102
> Since we don't know a lot of Orlanthi-specific myths about Urox, this
> is exceedingly speculative. For the moment I'm inclined to believe
> they are the same thing. It's not clear what you mean by "aspect" here,
> as they play very similar roles in the two cultures. I'm sure the Praxians
> and Sartarites have long since decided of each other: "They have a funny
> name for our god. Funny title for head people in the cult, too."
I said the same about Sartarite Orlanthi and Heortland Aeolians,
which are much closelier related.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Yet more Aeolian defense
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:14:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4137
Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4103
> Oh? Why do you say that? Is this identification actually part of the
> creed, btw, or was it just a `marginal gloss'?
More the latter. It pertained to the importance of Runes more than on
Elf and Dwarf elements.
>> Grower and Maker are part of the cosmology, explaining the basics of
>> Creation in one paragraph.
> Well, I did _say_ it was specifically the cosmology I was talking about,
> not the henotheisist aspects of worship. Only the dwarves and elves
> trundle these two out, even cosmologically, I think.
Read KoS, page 54, last paragraph:
"The Elder Gods were attributes and attitudes. They included
Maker and Grower," [...]
And that book treats _mainstream_ Orlanthi!
> This'll be the Backup Emergency Rationale, then? Let me reiterate, I'm not
> trying to Alex your campaign, by any means, I just don't see the imperative
> for the sorts of things you suggest, if, as you imply in between times,
> this stuff is _just begging_ to become official.
When I put my Seven Winds scenarion from Free INT 5 into Heortland, I
knew nothing about the Aeolian Church of Heortland. I was pointed to it
by one illustrious personage of this forum (thanks again, Nick) and
everyone else I asked about them (including Sandy) had heard about
them before. All I did was to write down what I had gathered, and fill
in the missing parts. If this is _not_ the way to produce products for
Glorantha, I am at a loss how anybody's vision of Glorantha can be put
into a project intended for publication.
Let me state again: I dont want to muck up anyone's Glorantha. I used
material offered to me to build a more complete picture around it. I
wanted to participate in our collective effort to make RuneQuest as
popular as it was back when one could read the White Dwarf in awe.
To be honest, I feel a bit abused.
> That's begging the question. They are _thanes_, who just happen to be
> called knights, according to the source.
Please define "thane".
> Knighthood is a remarkably mundane concept, when it comes right down to it.
> I bet there are "pure" Malkioni knights who don't even engage in "pseudo-
> cultic" saint worship of any kind.
Knighthood is a remarkably religious concept, with initiation vigils, pompous ceremony, idealistic
codes of honour and all that stuff.
> We're talking about mass conversion here, not covert, residual sects.
Not conversion. More an add-on. As Belintar was added on the cults
of Kethaela when he came into his primacy. (All of the cults of the
Holy Country were changed by this. Some fundamentally, by this add-on.
Ask Nick about the Esrolite Year King rites.)
> I think we (sort of) agreed several messages ago about Malkionised
> overlords; I think the _bulk_ of Heortlanders are still recognisable as
> Orlanthi, though. e.g., would see being a sorceror/wizard as being
> incompatible with most cult vows.
This is the point where we part company. Utterly. And where I won't under
any circumstance refute my views. Rather I'd quit this forum.
The Ditali Orlanthi have no problems at all that their lords are
Malkionized, and would be hard put to find a reason why to burn all
wizards - didn't their castle wizard give them this wonderfully sharp
spearhead for te raid on Esrolia? Of course they'd burn evil sorcerers.
The wizards would order them to do so, as would their priests.
> I'm not sure that even the upper crust
> are frequently sorcerors,
You mean sorcery-users? These are hardly what the populace would call
sorcerers. A sorcerer is someone steep into unholy magic, not a
Chalana Arroy healer who happens to know and apply sorcerous Treat Wounds.
> but if they are, I don't think the hoi polloi
> are, nor would I favour having a unitary religion for both which explicitly
> includes both "options".
How did you feel about MOB's Thurla character in Hut of Darkness, from
TotRM 9, then? I tried hard not to allow this kind of character among
the Aeolian Heortlanders, with magic more conservative Glorantha fans
than me failed to criticize.
Still Alex, in X-RQ-ID: 4105
> Head Heretic Hnick Hbrooke.
>> I'm not convinced of it, but I did find another one in Glorantha. Try the
>> Four Corners of the Earth Rune:
>> The Mother Gata
>> The Daughter Empress Earth
>> The Holy Ghost Earth Witch
> Hbah! That's a Trinity? Rather more like the Romano-Greek triple earth
> goddess, or indeed the hideous number of triple-aspected Celtic deities,
> are we going to count those as Trinities?
It's a trinity in one of the senses as I used it in my Aeolian write-up.
Henk, please?
> Glorantha goes a bit far by making the earth one a tri-trinity, mind you.
> On the other hand, why does a Trinity have to be "necessary" in order to
> amuse ourselves by kicking the idea around? Is someone out there trying
> to prove a "This is True for All Sects, in all One True Gloranthas" type
> argument, one way or t'other?
Now Alex managed to confuse me.
and yet Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4106
> Only one ("official", and not even a RQ) publication has alluded to Elmal,
> so if it's such a stinker, why worry about it?
More will follow.
> Those of us who like the
> Gregged Yelmalio now have an interesting extra bit of Orlanthi mythology,
> and an explanation for the cult that makes a lot more sense than the load
> of twaddle in CoP. What, exactly, has everyone else "lost"?
Innocence?
Losing innocent faith can be a tearing experiene... Part of this is what
initiation is about.
> The main problem with the Elmal discovery was its timing, I think. That
> it came out at roughly the same time as Sun County suddenly created a rash
> of inconsistencies which wouldn't have arisen otherwise. Perhaps SC should
> have been Gregged, but how well would that have gone down with the punters?
Excellent question. Especially in the light of my recent experience...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Five sons of Umath
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:16:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4138
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4115
> The GLs "discovered" Kolat's importance, but it's probably a
> result of their realization that Umath must have somehow spawned all
> the sylphs and storms of the world. The GLs then discovered that
> Umath did so by spawning one giant sylph-thing, which broke up into
> sylphs and storms. The GLs called this briefly-existing entity Kolat.
> It doesn't mean there's a personality-possessing entity called Kolat
> alive today, or ever alive (except for that brief moment during
> Godtime before he fragmented). But the GLs feat in discovering this
> fact doesn't mean that there was never any Kolat. Just that they
> found out about him.
I disagree with this view, mostly because it would spoil my campaign.
Putting my God Learner hat over my Arkati headband, and wearing my
monomyth glasses, here are my heresies:
Umath had five sons, from the elder three of whom most of the other storm
deities descended.
The eldest son was Umaths son of the world, the physical winds of the
world. It fathered a host of air and wind spirits and deities of mostly
local importance. This entity blows as a soft and gentle wind as well
as a roaring hurricane, and can carry bad stenches as well as bring
fresh air.
The second son was his bestial son, the berserk. He wedded the earth
and fought against chaos. Few of his children are detailed as fully
fledged deities.
The third son was his brutal son, the destroying wind. He too had
children which became deities, some of these even important figures in
the pantheon. This is the son of Umath who died in Godtime, killed by
his brother.
The fourth was the honourable warrior wind, who became the keeper of
Death, and disavowed his family ties. Only one son of his ever appeared
in myth and history.
The last son was the adventuring wind, who befriended many of the other
deities and became a leader, who challenged the ruler of the universe
and replaced him. He subdued each of his brthers and got hold over some
of their powers, and rules the world.
It is easy to identify sons 2, 4 and 5 in Third Age mythology: they are
Urox/Storm Bull (2), Humakt (4) and Orlanth (5). Sons 1 and 3 are hard
to identify.
Reading the Initiation of Orlanth in KoS, we learn that the first son
survived his initiation by blowing with a force that moved everything
else, the force of the winds. The text says that this son's name was
Vadrus, but in The Sons of Umath the eldest son is named Kolat.
The third son was thrown into the sex pit, and became obsessed with
rape. The context makes it clear that this son later became known as
Ragnaglar. He also is the destructive wind, of fierce and mindless
violence, as is stated on top of the same page (64) for Vadrus.
The third son of Umath was killed by one of his brothers. In some myths
we learn that Storm Bull slew Ragnaglar, in others Humakt slew him, or
Vadrus. The myths are vague.
This humble God Learner would not accept the genealogy given on page
63, because the number of Umath's sons is wrong. Some times "Vadrus"
really is "Kolat", some times he really is "Ragnaglar".
I believe that the Storm gods are often confused or equated in Orlanthi
as well as non-Orlanthi myths. I'll give a few examples of possible
confusion.
- The Goddess of the Still Air is said to be Molanni, concubine to
Yelm, or Brastalos, wife to Magasta. Both are said to be daughters of
Vadrus.
- There is a Storm deity cited as the father of the Pamalt pantheon
storm gods, Keraun and Sikkanos. The god Learner write-up says Orlanth.
- a horde of warring storm deities coursed over the world, led by the
sons of Umath. Their leader generally is named Vadrus. Some times the
warriors are local winds, like Aerlit or Ygg, fathers of the human
ancestors of the Westerners, or the fathers of the various mertribes,
Janelosp (Gnydron), Egransk (Malasp), Gornaloth (Ysabbau), Diendimos
(Ludoch) and Por Janks (Ouori). Plentonius (GRoY) has the leader of the
air gods as Umatum, Lanatum, Oralanatus, and Rebellus Terminus.
So to give names to the sons of Umath, I just present names given to
each number of the sons, using all sources I recall, without quoting
them.
1.
- Kolat, father of the spirits of the wind (among these Aerlit, ather
of Malkion)
- Umbrol, father of the sylphs, the elementals
- Orlanth, the world storm (in Elder Secrets), and as father of e.g.
Keraun and Sikkanos
- Orlanth Thunderous
- Umath
2.
- Storm Bull, son of the beast mother (Mikyh?), husband of the beast
mother (Eiritha), god of berserkers.
- Urox or aurochs
- husband god in Earth mythology
3.
- Vadrus, father of the bad gods of the Air (especially Gagarth and
Molanni), killed in the Gods War
- Ragnaglar, father of the Devil, killed several times in the Gods War,
(by Humakt and Storm Bull)
4.
- Humakt, god of swords, death, honour
- Resant, storm and war god of the Fronelan hill barbarians in Jonat's
Saga
- Orlanth, war god and wielder of Death
5.
- Orlanth, King of Gods
- Orlanth Adventurous
- Orlanth Lightbringer
- Worlath (in Ralios)
- Resant (in late 2nd Age Fronela)
- husband god in Earth mythology
PS: All this is God Learner rubbish, and naturally wrong. Is it?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Initiation, my last
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:17:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4139
Boris nicely summed up why I want flexible rules. Alex fears that
flexible rules can be bent. They can, but I don't really care.
Cullen tempts me to join the fray again. I might - in private email.
(And this not for fear of Nick's reprisal...)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
---------------------
From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Gbaji and the consequences
Message-ID:
Date: 24 May 94 19:20:06 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4140
Sandy in X-RQ-ID: 4091
> Joerg mentions:
>>The anti-Gbaji-campaign spanned all of known Genertela (face it: we
>>know next to nothing about the far east).
> The anti-Gbaji campaign had little effect on most Praxians or
> Pent nomads, who stayed in their ancestral lands.
I had the impression that a horde of several ten thousand followed
Arkat for the big plunder of Peloria, and that a good-sized group
of them even stayed to rule this Oasis-people.
> Gbaji's influence
> did reach Kralorela, and the Kralori dragon empire knew of him and
> traded with him, though I don't think his religion spread too far
> among them. Chaos isn't as big a deal among the Kralori as it is
> among the other nations of Genertela, which were much more badly hit
> during the Great Darkness. This disinterest in what Gbaji had to
> offer made his missionary efforts somewhat superfluous.
This again makes me suspect that illumination really is draconic thinking.
The dragons are indifferent to chaos as long as it doesn't threaten their
kind directly, which even chaos is hard put to do.
> But I do know that Nysalor's reign is generally thought of
> favorably by most Kralori. No doubt they mistook it for an effort to
> have a divine god-king like their own in flattering imitation.
Another notch in the knife-handle of this theory.
>>From a Malkioni point of view, wasn't Chalana Arroy a well-meaning
>>healer wizard who became so obsessed with Healing that she forgot
>>the real purpose of worship and made her followers worship Healing
>>instead? (To parallel the Humct write-up in Prosopaedia.)
> Only if you assume that Humct and Humakt are the same.
They are as much the same as are Yelm and Ehilm (of the Galanini).
> Even
> if Chalana Arroy is supposedly a healer wizard (which no doubt _some_
> Malkioni believe), this doesn't mean she's treated exactly the same
> as a human hero like Elamle-ata or Arkat. For one thing, she's
> reached a status level quite different from that of ordinary heroes.
> No doubt any humanity CA once had has been stripped away and replaced
> by something else. So, no, I don't think CA is a recognized saintly
> individual in Malkioni society.
An angelic individual, then? And didn't Arkat and Dormal fully attain
divinity es per deity, sufficiently to be listed in GoG and Troll Gods?
>>These pure bronze veins: are they mined as metal, or as ore?
> Dunno. How about both? Veins that are thick enough or buried
> deep enough (to avoid oxidation) would still be solid metal, with
> maybe a border of ore, while other veins would just be ore.
This would work. For me.
>>If mined as metal, will bronze items corrode?
> Sure. My player's bronze items corrode all the time. Don't
> yours?
My campaign spans just 4 seasons at the moment. Rust has not been
a problem yet.
>> What kept them from corroding?
> Won't depth and comparatively little time underground do the
> trick? They've only been laying in the dirt for a few thousand years,
> after all.
They have been subject to decay, else the rock surounding them would
be the deities' flesh (which I doubt). They have been subject to stress,
ad one of the most aggressive acids known in geochemistry: water
under pressure. The geological upheavals have accelerated geology and
geochemistry in Glorantha to such an extent, especially because of the
magic around, that the short period of time is evened out, IMO.
>> Wouldn't it be sacrilegious in this case to break up one's ruling
>> deity's family remains for selfish mundane use?
> Whose ruling deity you talking about, bub?
Look at which pantheon has and works which Rune Metal. Most Gloranthans do.
> I worship
> Yelm/Malkion/Ernalda/Telmor. This bronze crap is _storm_ god stuff.
It is. But Gold (Yelm) or Copper (Ernalda) are Rune Metals in use for
mundane purposes (e.g. as coins) as well. Malkion _was_ a storm god.
> And even if I worship a storm god, these are probably the remains of
> someone I don't care about, like Vadrus. And even if they're not,
> what better fate for them than to be turned into a plow to feed my
> children or a sword to continue fighting Darkness?
This was the argument I wanted to hear.
> I'm sure somewhere there are veins of ore or bones which the
> locals know to be some important deity, and which they regard as
> sacred and untouchable, but in most cases I'm sure they're happy to
> dig up the stuff.
We know of the Storm Bulls guard at the block, and the Caladraland
claim on petrol and coal. I don't know of more examples.
> I've even read that the first
> iron tools were _inferior_ in hardness to the contemporary bronze
> ones, but that the greatly cheaper nature of iron (iron ore is
> everywhere) made it displace bronze.
That's most probably due to the poor quality of the first iron
produced by mankind.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de