From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 26 May 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: isaac@twics.com Subject: Monkey Brain Sushi Message-ID: <0097EFAB.BA0EFEA0.97@tanuki.twics.com> Date: 25 May 94 14:10:32 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4157 Hi everyone! Just regained consciousness after a bad attack of work and tackled the past few days' digests... Thanks to Sandy Petersen for stating my position far more clearly than I did re: the oppressed masses in Ralios - < ...since peasants could easily leave, some societies reacted by becoming... Linked with this is Graeme Lindsell's interesting comment about Tsarist Russia. As I tried to say previously, I'm not wild about "Earth in Glorantha", but a couple of interesting parallels struck me - The Russians even now are not beyond displaying a certain amount of distrust / suspicion / irrational fear about the Great and Lawless East with its Hordes of Invaders. Their literature is full of the theme of all these Scythians and Mongols charging around, wildly liberated, with the wind blowing through their unwashed hair(s) as they trample civilisation into the dust, etc, etc. Now, given the Orlanthi propensity to take umbrage, or even just to go in for a bit of friendly raiding and pillaging from time to time, there's doubtless more than a few "military advisors" in Safelster and Seshnela who are as keen as anything to go and pacify these barbarians... And as for what happens when the barbarians get the upper hand - you only have to look at China and those Mongol hordes to see where the henotheists might come from. OK, enough of the Earth parallels. I'm afraid they're a good jumping off point for hang-glidings of the imagination, but Gloranthan "reality" dictates the way things unfold... (erm... possibly...) And Cullen "What I want in the west is rampant heresies!" O'Neill : How about a pseudo-pacifist bunch (or are they..?), maybe of Safelstran henotheists, maybe of Seshnelan Rokari, who want to sit down the lion with the lamb and make peace with those unwashed eastern barbarians before civilisation falls? Theological justifications? And I know this isn't a heresy, but I'll mention it anyway, just in case... The society of the Malkioni is obsessed (to varying degrees...) with the idea of caste. Especially the society of the Rokari - who are historically fairly recent, I admit (at least, that's what I've been led to believe? Elmal, anyone? :-)) - with its (very) limited opportunities for social advancement, must have a thousand and one ways to ritualise inter-caste and intra-caste interactions. You know the kind of thing - not marrying anyone who isn't a vermilion dyer if you were born into a cloth-making family, etc. But what about the implications for religious life? Assuming that Malkionism changes and has changed with time, the originally divinely-inspired caste system might start backing up on the religion's philosophy itself. The idea of Virtue being different for each caste... The Henotheists interpolating a semi-feudal relationship between God and His Angelic Host... Ritualized social activity becoming empty religious ritual..? More expensive clothing restricted to higher castes and possessing some religious connotation which demands and justifies its use... "So ye labour with the animal as God has ordained, so must ye wear its skin..." And what about the Invisible God being transcendent rather than immanent? What are the implications for people's ways of thinking? A tendency to discount the validity of physical experience? Or a lethal pragmatism when God doesn't always smack our hands... witness Confucius (I think it was him... help...) saying things like "You should go to war only for material gain. That way you are concerned about what will be left after the war. Wars fought for ideological reasons are to be avoided - they kill women and children, slaughter livestock and burn fields, leaving the land an unuseable wasteland afterwards." Any takers for a philosophy born from the sad lessons of the Gbaji Wars...? Ooops.. getting long - parting shot : Cullen "Can't we call them something a little less RW-ish? Saints and Angels and the Creator..." I'd dearly love someone to come up with evocative and non-connotative words for Saints and Angels. (Avatars...? Shadows...? Children...? Seneschals of the Lord...? erm... erm... *fingers drumming on table top*...) For one thing, the Angels I use in my campaign, although they are recognisably linked with "the Gods", are understood by those who worship them as Angels to be part of the Divine Being of God Himself, etc. In other words, they are facets of God's "personality", devolutions of his being, if you will. Angels seemed a handy word to avoid those appalling distinctions between "Divine Saints" , "Mundane Saints", etc, etc... which creep up and mug your campaign when you aren't looking :-). Bill Robertson : "An Elf-Forest is not a transplanted Earth forest. Malkionism isn't warmed over Christianity. Kralorela isn't a stir-fried China." Yowwww! Let's chant that mantra before we go to bed at night... Humble apologies for the length. m(__)m Thanks for reading. Sayonara for now, Gary (Gary Newton / Isaac@twics.com) --------------------- From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK Subject: Cloud Clear Message-ID: <9405251519.AA27665@Sun.COM> Date: 25 May 94 15:01:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4158 Hi All and especially Joerg Joerg slags off Cloud Call pointing out that you need 53 points of divine magic to cast a thunderbolt on a clear day... TRUE in so far as it goes... Cloud Call is much more useful as communal magic (like bless crops) than for an individual adventurer. With this spell a community can pretty much ensure that they get vitally needed rain at the right time. Cloud Call is very powerful in groups. Imagine the scenario when the Lunars try to break up an Orlanthi religious ceremony on a bright sunny day. Lets face it the Lunars are unlikely to try it during a thunderstorm when Orlanth is Obviously manifesting. Say about a half of the initiates have a SINGLE POINT of Cloud Call then suddenly the attacking troops find the sun clouded over and EVERY Thunderbolt in the congregation becomes useable! Say only 1 in five of the congregation (heads of families maybe) have this spell. This means that the attackers are facing 20+ thunderbolts, each virtually automatically taking out (if not actually killing) a normal human! Suddenly an attack by well trained, well armed professional soldiers against an equal number of poorly equiped villagers becomes an outnumbered, demoralized, disordered force being attacked by a horde of fanatics who have just seen their god's might blast down on their attackers. This is 110 points of divine magic to take out 20 soldiers! Roughly the same as Sever Spirit (although successful uses of SS get round the healing). I have not heard Sever Spirit being described as useless. Finally have you tried casting 50 to 100 points of Cloud Call on an already Cloudy and Stromy day (100% cloud cover to start)! I would rule that if the notional cloud cover reached 200% it would recreat the conditions found in the Storm Age which might be a good way to initiate a HeroQuest. It would certainly scare the living daylights out of any non-Orlanthi! Lewis --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Immanent deities and them that ain't. Message-ID: <9405251520.AA20880@barren.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 25 May 94 15:20:03 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4159 Joerg: > It seems that my impression of the Compromise and its consequences differ > from yours. I thought that the Compromise kept the deities out of > day-to-day affairs of Glorantha, let alone have them worry over minor > details as squabbles between different local interpreteations. It does, but they still "intervene" (via spirits of reprisal, etc.) when actual sacrilege occurs. Thus I don't think a single theistic cult could become riven to the extent of IG worshippers, but this still leaves a great deal of scope. (Of course, one might counter that after a certain point the cults "split" entirely, then throwing up the issue of whether the gods does too.) > I don't believe either that it is possible to look at someone's runes, > not even for temple spirits. I liked the explanation why (some, per RQ3) > illuminates are immune to spirits of reprisal: they don't feel the guilt > the spirits need for homing in on the miscreant. Nothing divine in this. Soul Sight reveals initiatory status to a priest, recall. (Oh no! RQ God Learnerism! ;-/) As to "seeing runes", I don't see why this shouldn't be possible (be _some_ means), but it seems neither here nor there in this context. > > If a theist commits > > a sacrilegious act, various consequences ensue, _without_ any human > > intervention. (To wit, becoming an Inactive initiate (which has more than > > just "rules nit" consequences, and/or spirits of reprisal.) > You become inactive already if you don't show up for the High Holy Day > ceremony (unless you got leave, like that keeper of Greenbrass). You _become_ inactive when this happens (and for other reasons), you aren't "inactivated" by the priest. Though maybe that could be done too, but it seems redundant with sicking a SoR on the poor sucker. In fact, one could say that about Inactivity in general, in Glorantha. > The > spirits of reprisal are summoned and sent by priests using Command > Cult Spirit, as I understood it. Not necessarily, though I do think spirits of reprisal _may_ be Commanded. > Like I said above, I have a more stringent view about the Compromise and > its consequences. One wonders how gods manage to act in _any_ way, given this view. A deity has knowledge of the actions of his initiate, and hence may potentially "notice" a sacrilegious act. The "link" to the initiate is within his domain of influence, so there's nothing Compromise-breaking about suspending it. To instruct a spirit of reprisal is no more compromise-breaking than answering a divination, as far as I can see: both are "communication", not "intervention". > > Excommunication > > needs human action, but will generally follow from the foregoing, and has > > tangible affects. ("My Son, why have you Gone Inactive, and why are those > > Flint Slingers banging away at your noggin? Consider yourself > > an ex-initiate.") > Those Flint Slingers were homing in on his feeling of guilt or betraying, > not on the very act, unless he broke the cult restrictions in a way blatant > to even an entity outside time. So it's a matter of degree, not of Compromise-shattering prohibition? I agree with this view. Being a bit light on the tithe one month doesn't provoke divine retaliation, but peeing on the Altar of Orlanth Victorious cetainly would. (And I don't just mean the "temple defences", before someone jumps down my throat with this riposte.) > > If a Rokari flouts his religions strictures, nothing much happens, unless > > he's caught with his hand in the poor box, or some other part of his > > anatomy in a local peasant wench/sheep/chaos monster. Even then, it's > > a matter for the vagarities of human sanctions. > The Yelmalio village foreman in Gaumata's vision had not been visited by > Monrogh, either. Had he done anything actually sacrilegious? Clearly gods don't act as a thought police, they only notice what a worshipper actually does (if even that). > > Where a manifest (deity|saint) is worshipped too, your kilometrage may > > clearly vary. ("No, really, I left the monks of St. Gerlant Flamesword > > for, errrr, personal reasons.") > Why so? Because if a Saint grants non-wizardly powers, then he's effectively a manifest entity, so reasoning for initiates of visible gods (very broadly) holds. If the cult just grants a special sorcerous spell or twelve, then the Saint is (or at least may be) "invisible", and not at all manifest, in the same (non-) way as the IG. > The only reason I'd accept is that the person which has learned > to invoke a saint has become the Saint's Rune Lord or something similar. I'm not sure I apprehend your drift. Are you saying that apostacy from a Saint's "cult" shouldn't "work like" that from a theistic cult, or that it should. I didn't actually say either, so it's hard to tell which you're "disagreeing" with. In any case, I think it depends on the nature of the saint, and of his cult. _Anyway_, the point is that since some gods are _manifest_, they can do this sort of thing, at least under some circumstances. The IG isn't, and can't, in any way. Most Malkioni would lynch you before you could say "I didn't really mean--" if you so much as implied something which could be inferred as meaning that the IG was in any way manifest, visible, or whatever. "Proof denies faith, and without faith I'm just another crappy False God!", as it were. Of course, some sects believe the IG has a manifest aspect, but that's another boat of bananas entirely. Alex. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Assuming that which is to be proved. Message-ID: <9405251541.AA20913@barren.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 25 May 94 15:41:41 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4161 Joerg quotes me: > > I'm sure the Praxians > > and Sartarites have long since decided of each other: "They have a funny > > name for our god. Funny title for head people in the cult, too." > I said the same about Sartarite Orlanthi and Heortland Aeolians, Indeed... > which are much closelier related. Well, that's where we disagree, isn't it? Of course, this is a somewhat hypothetical question, since we've very little firm info on how different or similar Urox and Storm Bull, their myths, and their respective cults, actually are. Alex. --------------------- From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller) Subject: Answering questions Message-ID: <01HCR739RO4M8WWL7P@wharton.upenn.edu> Date: 25 May 94 07:02:17 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4162 Martin: > Re: local variations > Devin sees "gifts, geasa, spells, Priestly requirements, > [and] initiate requirements" as things that ought not to vary > between cultures, within a cult. Ah, but does Humakt _care_ > about such matters? As someone else said, all he cares about is > keeping 'em dying. Agreed. All the minutae of the cult are unimportant to the god(s) being worhipped. All they want is to maintain temple strength and keep getting that worship to fortify their paths on the Heroplane. They go along with prohibitions and pronouncements decided on by the religious hierarchy because these things help keep the cultus whole. F'rinstance, I doubt that Orlanth actually sends out the impests, rather they are the purview of some minor figure in his household who is easily manipulated by the high leadership of the Orlanth cult. Peter Whitelaw writes: > I HAVE SOME NON-GLORANTHAN CAMPAIGN NOTES ON DISK FROM A FRIEND'S CAMPAIGN. > CULTURES/SOCIEITES/GODS ETC. DO YOU WANT TO SEE THEM OR NOT? Uhhhh, is this a trick question? YES!!!!!!!!! Graeme Lindsell reluctantly entering the fray: > If people want the Daily to have more rules > topics, then post and dicuss them. RIGHT! Don't blame the list for your individual failings, folks. Graeme again: > Gloranthan gods appear to have > less free will than the Greek gods - you never see Orlanth paying > a faithful (or at least brave) initiate a personal visit, or Uleria > manifesting to seduce a handsome man. I bet that happens though. We just haven't heard about it because those stories haven't been told. WALLMAN@VAX2.Winona.MSUS.EDU (Close friend of Little Elvis) > Is there a deity in Glorantha dedicated to crafters and artisans? Not among the Orlanthi. They aren't big city dwellers, and their gods are horticultural type gods, not crafter gods. However, I encourage you to make up patrons of various crafts just as you would make up city gods. whoah, +++++++++++++++++++++++23 Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu "Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite --------------------- From: shillada@gatwick.sgp.slb.com Subject: A lurker comes forth..... Message-ID: <9405251621.AA21859@icarus.gatwick.sgp.slb.com> Date: 25 May 94 16:21:57 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4163 Peter Whitelaw asks :- I HAVE SOME NON-GLORANTHAN CAMPAIGN NOTES ON DISK FROM A FRIEND'S CAMPAIGN. CULTURES/SOCIEITES/GODS ETC. DO YOU WANT TO SEE THEM OR NOT? Yes I would. I am not a huge fan of ONE TRUE WORLD Glorantha. When the GM wants to wing it, adapt material, then I say good luck too him/her. Glorantha is a rich background, and those that want to delve deeply have a great opputunity to do so. Those of us with little time have to muddle our way along, at the risk of being inconsistent with published material. cheers to all, Neil Shilladay. --------------------- From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk Subject: Re: Yet more Aeolian defense Message-ID: <9405251656.AA20985@barren.dcs.gla.ac.uk> Date: 25 May 94 16:56:49 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4164 Joerg: > Read KoS, page 54, last paragraph: > "The Elder Gods were attributes and attitudes. They included > Maker and Grower," [...] > And that book treats _mainstream_ Orlanthi! Oops. These damn God Learners, they get everywhere... ;-) > Let me state again: I dont want to muck up anyone's Glorantha. Nor I: but to insist on a One True World would almost certainly be to do so. > To be honest, I feel a bit abused. I've no idea what's being objected to here: the fact of my quibbling with your picture of Heortland, the manner of my doing it, or my perceiced "agenda" in doing so. If you feel I've been personally objectionable in what I've said, let's take that thought to e-mail, or to over a beer at Convulsion, which you can reserve the right to pour over me, if push comes to shove. > > That's begging the question. They are _thanes_, who just happen to be > > called knights, according to the source. > Please define "thane". Eh? Must I, given that it's taken a whole other thread to try to do so? Let me try to restate myself, in the unlikely hope that it'll help: "Hendriki knights are not so much Western Knights, forming a distinct, noble, class of often land-holding warriors, but are a modification of the Orlanthi status of weaponsthane, having adopted some of the paraphenalia of the former, but remaining, fundamentally, simply one of the classes of freemen." If you're implying the two are the same thing, one wonders why G:G bothers to make the distinction. > Knighthood is a remarkably religious concept, with initiation initiation! throw the stones> vigils, pompous ceremony, idealistic > codes of honour and all that stuff. Or not, as the case may be. > > We're talking about mass conversion here, not covert, residual sects. > Not conversion. More an add-on. If you add on enough stuff that it begins to be incompatible with the original religion, it's more like a conversion, to my mind. > > I think we (sort of) agreed several messages ago about Malkionised > > overlords; I think the _bulk_ of Heortlanders are still recognisable as > > Orlanthi, though. e.g., would see being a sorceror/wizard as being > > incompatible with most cult vows. > This is the point where we part company. Utterly. And where I won't under > any circumstance refute my views. Rather I'd quit this forum. Is this a complaint about the thumbscrews I've been secretly employing on you to make you do so, or just a statement that there's no point in me trying to change your mind? Can I still try to change (if necessary) everyone else's? If you think I'm wrong, and wish to point out why, fine. If you think I'm wrong, and don't, equally fine. If you think I'm wrong, and should therefore belt up, less fine. An unfortunate tendancy of this discussion (and yes, The Other One), is to get bogged down in interpreting the care(ful|less)ly ambiguous Oracular Pronouncements of The Stafford of Oakland. This should not be taken to mean that I (at least) think this is the only, or the best, way to think about Glorantha, much less defend one's thinking. On the other hand, if I'm told I have to lump something because Mr. Greg Says So, then it's not unreasonable to argue that Mr. Greg _doesn't_ say so, if I understand him not to. Not, I hasten to add, that Joerg has conducted the debate in those terms, but some of the dirty in-fighting that takes place on the Daily in general often seems to carry this as an overtone. At no point have I demanded that Joerg desist from posting his Aeolian church material, "admit" that it's wrong, change it to suit me, or any such thing. I, personally, don't think (on the basis of what's been said so far) that I'd use the material as it currently stands, but that could be said of unending reams of "official" material. > The Ditali Orlanthi have no problems at all that their lords are > Malkionized, and would be hard put to find a reason why to burn all > wizards We were talking, in the matter of burning wizards/sorcerors about the relationship between "pure" Orlanthi (we specifically said "Sartarites") and the Aeolians, not that within Heortland. I have no difficulty in imagining a Malkioni ruling class and an Orlanthi people, and I don't think it requires that their religions be merged, or that one be forced on the other group, although mutual influence is obviously likely. What I'm skeptical about, in the particular case of Heortland, is half the populace using sorcery, complete with Invisible Goddish rationale for doing so, and being blithely accepted by all and sundry as pure-of-heart Orlanthi. > Still Alex, in X-RQ-ID: 4105 > > Head Heretic Hnick Hbrooke. > >> I'm not convinced of it, but I did find another one in Glorantha. > > Hbah! That's a Trinity? > It's a trinity in one of the senses as I used it in my Aeolian write-up. You seem to have mistaken me for someone who disapproves of Trinities (in Glorantha). I was merely jeering (mainly for effect) at Nick's example. If this is the sort of "abuse" I'm subjecting you to, perhaps _I_ had better leave the list, since I'm not sure I can guarantee (or want to) to not do similarly again... Alex. --------------------- From: timbee@timbee.rnd.symix.com (Dogs Playing Poker) Subject: Glorantha Light Bulb Jokes Message-ID: <9405251655.AA01256@timbee.rnd.symix.com.symix> Date: 25 May 94 16:55:40 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4165 Cullen O'Neill asked: How many Orlanthi does it take to change a light bulb? A: First Orlanth with help steals Death from Humakt which he uses to extinguish the bulb. Orlanth now notices the the room is dark and decides to bring back the bulb from Hell. Orlanth then travels to Hell and brings back the light bulb so the room is once again lit. This becomes known as the Lightbulb Bringer's Quest and is debated Daily Digest by Scholars who quote obsecure source material.