Bell Digest v940527p4

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 27 May 1994, part 4
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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Aeolians with their backs to Storm Mountains sally forth
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 May 94 19:46:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4196

Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4167

> I quote Joerg:
>> First of all, I believe that there are a lot of henotheist churches, 
>> or at least sects (subcults), in Ralios.  Some are Stygian, some are 
>> Cthonic, some are Aeolian, and some are Solar. A lot of these have animal 
>> saints replacing the old Hsunchen deities, IMO.

> Indeed, there are many henotheist churches, but there is one (apparently)
> _called_ "the Henotheistic Church".  Whether it's in any way a unitary
> religion I have no idea. 

I have the idea of lots of local variations, a lot of them taking one of 
the ruling gods of Ralian 1st or 2nd Age (Basmol, Worlath, Ehilm, Argan 
Argar, Tanier, Felster, Doskior, or an Earth deity) into the centre of 
their worship. This is my idea, I don't play in Ralios (yet), take it or 
leave it.

> But it seems natural to me to suppose that,
> generally speaking, each sect or religion uses the term "saint" to indicate
> whether it considers an entity is a "lesser" one, comparable to the mortal
> saints of orthodox Malkionism, or a "greater" one, mentionable in the same
> breath as "real" gods, like the IG.  (Just not "I".) 

The greater saints of Malkionism (Arkat, Malkion, Zzabur) are definitely 
of the same stature as even major gods (Kyger Litor, Zorak Zoran and 
Zzabur are mentioned in one breath in the I Fought We Won myth 
in Troll Pak).

> I'm not enamored of
> the idea of all sects using the term for everyone in sight, regardless
> about their beliefs about them.

Nor am I. That's why I welcomed the expression "angelic being". Would 
this council of language artist spew forth a few more such terms for me 
humble practitioner of Tradetalk?

>>> Using the same term for obscure heroes
>>> and major deities doesn't really inspire confidence in claims that this
>>> _isn't_ a questioning of the importance of the latter, though.

>> Obscure heroes like Arkat and major deities like Minlister? Come on.

> Come on, indeed.  Arkat isn't an obscure hero, and Minlister isn't a deity
> I've heard of.  Could you please disagree with the point I was making, not
> the straw man I wasn't?  If you use one set of terminology for one group of
> gods (the Aeolian Trinity) and another for a second group, (the Aeolian
> saints), then you're implying that each is different from the other
> group, and similar to members of the same group.  That is, Issaries and
>  are "just" saints, while Orlanth and the Invisible
> God are "proper members of the trinity".  I don't say this structure isn't
> possible, or even unlikely, generally speaking, but where it does occur,
> it's likely to be regarded with suspicion by "orthodox" worshippers of,
> say, Issaries.

As I said above, Arkat is greater in stature and importance than many 
important deities. Orlanth, Yelm, Magasta, Pamalt, Lodril, Mother Earth 
and the Red Goddess are the only deities I would place above all other 
deities. Sorry, but Humakt, Lhankor Mhy, Kyger Litor or Aldrya aren't 
that fundamental, even though they hold a critical Secret Power. Arkat, 
Humakt and Yanafal Tarnils aren't too different in their powers, the only 
thing to make Humakt stand out is his possession of the Death Rune.

Most of the Lunar Pantheon consists of apotheosized humans. So does part 
of the Aeolian array of "Saints" or whatever I can call them in English as 
a term that won't offend anyone. (This actually made the Aeolian Church 
of Heortland so palatable to the Lunars that they renounced a lot of the 
restrictions Richard the Tigerhearted's Rokari clergy had imposed on them 
in a wave of iconoclasm. Or at least this will happen when my campaign 
reaches 1620 and Fazzur will free Hendrikiland from the Western oppressors.)

> If you insist on picking holes in your own divine/mortal distinction, then
> substitute "considered important" and "considered not so important".

Ok. Orlanth is considered Most Important, and never is called a Saint.

All other entities possessing divinity, be it through mortal action, 
apotheosis (which to me is another word for being recognized as a saint) 
or divine birth, are ordered along their importance.

most important (without capitals) are the Lightbringers, Ernalda, Malkion, 
Hrestol and Arkat.

important are King Heort, Barntar, the Lowfires, St. Aeol (courtesy 
David Hall), the Bretwalda (Pharaoh), Bingista, Esra etc.

not so important are Dormal (the Hendriki are no naval power), Gerlant 
Flamesword, Talor, Harmast, Minlister, Voria, Maran Gor, Babeester Gor, 
Choralinthor.

just present in the catalogue are Valkaro, Sofala, and other entities 
figuring in this myth or that.

>>> Actually, I have very few objections to the Aeolian Church, apart from where
>>> you've put it.

>> I didn't put it there.

>   I can't help thinking this isn't a response to what I said, but
> let me rephrase more carefully: "I have very few objections to a religion
> existing in Glorantha with a theology and structure like that you propose
> for the Aeolian Church, but I do not think that such a church would be
> widely worshipped in Heortland."

Not in northern Heortland, and only by part of the populace in southwestern 
Heortland. It's an Arkati group, and there is another Arkati great temple in 
Heortland noone has taken offense to! There are still theists among the 
Hendriki, as well, but they don't play the leading tune right now. There 
have been even more theists before they began to emigrate into Dragon Pass 
and to form the Quivini alliance. All I say is that in the cities of 
Hendrikiland the Arkati creed of the Aeolians has survived from the end of 
the First Age. Together with the concept of knights as the lords' special 
force of fighting retainers, even though they look and behave different 
from Loskalmi or Ralian knights.

I don't know whether the masses have been widely accepting the Aeolian 
creed all the time. I'd guess they did so during the Second Age, when 
the neighbouring Empire of Sea and Land did so in Slontos and colonies 
as well. This might have changed with the downfall of Jadnor, Lylket and 
the Clanking City. But there were Hendriki participating in the fight 
against the Clanking city (and I will develop a martyr Aeolian bishop 
who fell during the siege). In the 3rd Age, the Malkioni influences could 
have lain low, until by contact with the Trader Princes they became 
more popular again. But it has been present all the time, and it has 
left tracks in history here and there.

When I first heard of the Aeolian Church of Heortland (it wasn't my idea, 
honestly) I had much the same objections. I checked with a few high-ranking 
coryphees for Gloranthan knowledge, and found that it existed. So I 
incorporated it in a passive role into my first (quite successful) 
Glorantha scenario ever. I just hinted at what went on. Whenever I 
looked at the idea of knightly, Creator-acknowledging Hendriki later, the 
idea made an evil (?) sense, so I accepted and embraced it.

Later I decided to start a Gloranthan campaign. It is a playtest campaign 
for RQ4: AiG. I needed to work out the exact nature of the church. I 
collected official material, and unpublished material as well. I 
incorporated all myths I could find.

I took great pains _not_ to contradict any published nor unpublished 
source I was aware or made aware of. IMO I didn't. Don't.

The stuff I'm collecting and writing might contradict some campaigns 
some people have played in Heortland. But then how many Praxian campaigns 
have been contradicted by the River of Cadles supplement?

If you have notes about your campaign events in Heortland, I'd be 
pleased to work them in and produce a consistent version. If you 
want to co-work with me on the Hendriki-Pak, you're welcome. My email 
address ought to be known by now. (If not, look at the .sig)

Yes, I want to try and have my stuff published. Preferably by Avalon 
Hill. Else in German by Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft. I see 
this as my opportunity to contribute to the RuneQuest-Renaissance. 
What do you other people out there do? Where's your contribution?

This is one of the results of Gaming Evangelization David Cheng 
correctly asks for. Get at your keyboards, and do some work.

> I said nothing about a religious war (between who?); clearly my occassional
> attempts at levity via stake-sharpening remarks has either fallen rather
> flat, or is being actively misconstrued.

Probably a little of both. Have a look a your own contributions to the 
Daily, though, this is not a technique I have a monopoly in. Nya.

> I've no idea, off the top of my head, what political situation pertains in
> Otkorion, but I certainly don't think "conversative" Orlanthi, and full-blown
> henotheists (of the "St. Orlanth" persuasion, as it were) consider themselves
> co-religionists.  (Or should that be "co-cultists"?)  Similarities of
> religious belief can be cause for either buddy-buddy ecumenicalism, or
> for outright hostility.

If you have a common enemy, like the threatening Lunar Empire, the 
Praxian Beast Riders, or the atheist scum of God Forgot, or a common lord, 
like the Pharaoh (called Bretwalda in my game), I see a good probability 
(close to 100%) that the theists and the Aeolians feel they have a common 
stand against all foreign influences.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Cullen on initiatory stages
Message-ID: 
Date: 26 May 94 19:56:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4197

Cullen O'Neill X-RQ-ID: 4180

> S.Phillips in X-RQ-ID: 4113
>>The Esrolian Ernaldan is not kin so she is a weirdo. She probably
>>thinks that Ernalda is the king of gods and Orlanth is her wife. Now
>>that's not on - is it? I mean, we have to respect her but we don't
>>have to agree with (or even like) her. She would be better off going
>>back to Esrolia where the men have no passion. This argument would be

> Yes This is probably the attitude, but you don't burn her at the stake,
> at worst you're rude...  this is precisely what I meant by tolerate.
> But this doen't address the point I was making.  ie: a lay member can be
> an accepted member of society.

What you call a lay member has a so deep share in the cult secrets and 
cult secrets of the pantheon in question that the only difference to what 
you call an initiate is the lack of a Rune Lord-like devotion. If any 
initiate was an avatar of his deity (only), I agree that most Gloranthans 
wouldn't be initiates, else they would be as inhuman as the Brithini.

Sam:
>> I tend to think of the Lay worshipper as someone who is along for the
>> party.  And I also think that this sort of unpious behaviour is seen
>> by many cults as a good way to raise funds and so most would probably
>> throw a party.

> Back to lay worshippers...  I still think that a fairly large percentage
> of the population will be lay members.  If you downgrade initiation, you
> get people suggesting that you need two levels of initiation, and that
> at the first level somebody can be an initiate of n cults (where n is an
> (arbitrarily large number).  This is the same thing as a lay member (to
> me).

This is exactly the case. If any initiate was a Rune Lord only without 
1d10 DI and without iron armour, you can stuff your religion .... cooling 
down ... Let me put it this way: I don't need to be the embodiment of the 
deity or deities I worship to be a participant in their more secret 
rituals. Nnot even priests need to act like their deities in every way, 
this is Rune Lords _only_, and maybe people aspiring to become Rune Lords.

If you played it otherwise, all Humakti would have to be totally celibate, 
lest they create new life. All Orlanthi would _have_ to go on adventures, 
and _have_ to marry an earth cultist, and _have_ to plow the earth, etc ad 
absurdum. No space for character development would be left, except for 
lay members, who don't even know what happens to them when they die.

No, an initiate needn't act like his deities all the time. Being initiated 
to more than one would mean sure madness (i.e. would be mandatory for 
Lunars ) deciding whether to act like Orlanth or Lhankor Mhy. LM 
never plowed, so my character mustn't? Orlanth did, so he must?

I don't advocate n to be an arbitrary large number. What I want is 
a reasonable attachment to the deities of one's social unit, be it 
hearth, clan or tribe. These deities include my ancestors (catch a 
religion not including them somehow), the local spiritual entities 
which receive worship, and the deities all of us worship. As a pure 
lay member with no link whatsoever to the divine my character is left 
with as much warm feeling in return for religious activities as the 20th 
century atheist paying lip service to some religion for what reason ever.

I don't want such characters as the standard character in Glorantha!

Nor do I believe that this is the deal teh Malkioni get.

>> But he is already part of that god's family. He is in Orlanth's Staed
>> and so are all the other deities who are Orlanth's kin. Orlanth sits
>> on the throne, Ernalda at his side and all his kin around him. They
>> are drinking and laughing and having a good time..

> But where does someone who's an initiate of Urox, Ernalda, Orlanth,
> Barntar, Chalana Arroy and Aldrya fit into the Clan structure?  Are the
> clans of gods less structured than the clans of men?

He doesn't any more if he has undergone a RQ3 initiation to each of these, 
costing him 60% of tie and income. He will cease to be a functioning member 
of the clan, and be expelled.

That's why Boris, Loren, I and probably a lot of lurkers see the need for 
a more pantheon-style of worship instead of the one cult - one deity 
stuff.

Cullen in X-RQ-ID: 4181
replying to Boris in X-RQ-ID: 4116

> The Lunar cults cannot be used to generalize for more 'normal' cults
> (generalizing is dangerous anyway, Devin's calling out the Inquisitors
> as we speak....).  'Normal' cults don't use sorcery

Sez who?

All the Eastern Isles, plus Kralorela and Vormain, plus the Lunars, 
plus the Arkati, plus the Carmanians, Jonatings... do. I don't want 
to start a head count. I am aware that the Eastern sorcery may be different 
from the Western, Malkioni sorcery. Yet there seem to be as many 
Stygians or Cryptostygians about on Glorantha as there are Orlanthi or 
Dara Happans or pure Malkioni. Are all the members of this large group 
abnormal?

Is Chalana Arroy, who after all allows her healers to use sorcery, not 
a normal cult? Is Kyger Litor, who allows her children to worship Black 
Arkat and to use his sorcery not a normal cult? Are the Wenelian Trader 
Princes not sufficiently Issaries that they pass as such in areas like 
Sartar and Prax?

Accuse me of rules bashing, but this particular "rule" makes little 
sense to me given what I read in GoG and Genertela Box.

> either are we going
> to use the Red Goddess write-up to change this.  Lunars break rules for
> the #@)) of it anyway... surely their 'freedom' from the 'normal' form
> can't be used to alter the 'normal' form... of course 'normal' is only a
> 'useful GL construct' but lets not drop these altogether until Greg
> makes us.

He made us.

> Ok, this is a convincing argument.  I give on the issue of
> this...  but if a peson is effective as a worshipper when they're
> an initiate of a friendly diety, then why is there a need for
> pantheon initiation?  Like you said from a guest initiate sees the
> ritual from a different perspective!  That of his diety.

Because in your view of initiation, you wouldn't initiate the majority 
of the populace. Now you agree someone initiated is better than someone 
igcnorant, to which deity should he be initiated? Do we want only 
archetypes running around on the world? Even RuneQuest-Glorantha never 
was built like this, with characters like Griselda officially approved 
in Glorantha.

>> This begs the question, what is the iniatory
>> status *relative to Ernalda* of all of the Orlanthi, Uroxi, etc.
>> taking part in an Ernaldan High Holy Day service.  They are not
>> initiated to Ernalda, neither are they just lay members, as they
>> participate much more fully.  Yes, they are associates, but unless we
>> call "associate" a third initiatory state, this is just handwaving.
>> And if we *do* make associate another state of initiation, well then
>> fine, I'll also call this a low initiate and I am satisfied.  And if
>> Alex (or anyone) asks me to what are they initiated that is associated
>> with all the rest, well, I have shown above that one may initiate to
>> many deities with a single initiation; one initiates to the "gods of
>> my ancestors", i.e. the clan's gods.  And if that is still
>> unsatisfactory, they I suppose the clan wyter will do.  It would be
>> associated to all of the other deities worshipped by the clan, n'est
>> pas?

> When one is initiated to a diety one becomes dedicated to that diety's
> viewpoint, and begins trying to become like that diety to the extent
> possible.

If it was this easy to become an avatar of one's deity, why the fuss 
about Rune Lords? Becoming the deity clearly is their province, not 
that of the initiate.

> In some way the Initiation must be at base a transformative
> experience (otherwise why the big change in afterlife/Divine magic?).
> This gets lost with pantheon initiation. 

I don't see why. I hope to be able to submit the transcript of the 
initiation lecture of German RQ-Con soon, which nicely detailed what 
initiation is all about.

> The hero ceases trying to
> become like his/her god(dess) and becomes, well... kinda generic.

The hero still has the cultic prescriptions to act upon. He only acts 
as appropriate, but for the ordinary initiate appropriate behaviour is 
depending on the situation or work at hand.

> I think this is way to high a price to pay.  I think that initiates of one
> god therefor serve to help the Ernalda service by being representatives
> of their gods at the holy day services (which might be put on by the
> whole community, but each initiate is participating as a representative
> of his god).  Does this work for you?

No. The majority of initiates represent the benefiting party of the ritual, 
just like in Orlanth's stead. No need to represent these individually, 
really.

A few chosen initiates (if no higher ranks are present) become the avatar 
of their deity - for this ritual. Some become the avatar of a totally 
different deity - sometimes even an enemy deity - again just for this 
ritual. I doubt every clan has a full set of all deities in the myths, 
even the more popular ones. Other initiates have to jump in.

> Well... I suppose it does help in the way you speak.  But couldn't you
> have just as rich experiences with everybody participating in all the
> rituals as lay members/guest initiates and when there is a lack of a
> _____(fill in blank) worshipper the community must seek out a priestess
> (or initiate any way) to fill in that role at the ritual to make the
> land fertile or whatever.  I see alot of interaction between the cults
> without any need for multiple initiation.

I don't see how the basic initiation hampers inter-cult interaction. If 
you want a specialist, you still have to seek out a priest or Rune Lord.

LBQ:
> Well seriously... I couldn't figure out what it meant.  I really
> mean it, no humour involved.

LightBringers Quest. Like God Learners one of the words that makes my 
wrists ache.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de