From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 28 May 1994, part 3
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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: non-Angels
Message-ID: <940527042505306@thuemmel.com>
Date: 27 May 94 16:06:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4217
Gary Newton in X-RQ-ID: 4157
G> And Cullen "What I want in the west is rampant heresies!" O'Neill:
}8->
G> How about a pseudo-pacifist bunch (or are they..?), maybe of
G> Safelstran henotheists, maybe of Seshnelan Rokari, who want to sit
G> down the lion with the lamb and make peace with those unwashed
G> eastern barbarians before civilization falls? Theological
G> justifications?
Yeah these are basically the ideas I mean... but w/o a mythological
structure to hang such ideas upon, they're just a bit too dry for my
taste. What I'm thinking about is trying to construct a myth that can
be used to construct the kind of diversity I'm talking about. I think
I'll go back and read everything I've got on the Malkioni.
I've got The three books in G:CHW, The three GoG books and I just
got SiP (it finally came in). Are there ANY other sources for
Malkionism? Anybody?!? ~~~
What about the story of Hrestol's mother for instance, does anybody know
anything more than is in "What the Priest said:"? This entry says to me
that there is a legend of Hrestol at least, probably a whole
mythologized history of the Malkioni we don't know about... we could be
waiting a while to hear more about them, too!
Maybe'll try to make up a Malkioni Mythology using what is available and
my own ideas... I'll keep you posted if I make any progress, which
probably won't be much. The knowlege that you're going to be Gregged
is sure enervating...
G> And I know this isn't a heresy, but I'll mention it anyway, just in
G> case... The society of the Malkioni is obsessed (to varying
G> degrees...) with the idea of caste. Especially the society of the
G> Rokari- who are historically fairly recent,
Although they would claim otherwise... (IMHO)
G> with its (very)
G> limited opportunities for social advancement, must have a thousand
G> and one ways to ritualise inter-caste and intra-caste interactions.
G> You know the kind of thing - not marrying anyone who isn't a
G> vermilion dyer if you were born into a cloth-making family, etc.
A few generalizations could be made... formalizing all of them is
unweildy, but one could make up restrictions as you went... as long as
you keep the general charecter of the restrictions consistant it should
work.
G> what about the implications for religious life? Assuming that
G> Malkionism changes and has changed with time, the originally
G> divinely-inspired caste system might start backing up on the
G> religion's philosophy itself. The idea of Virtue being different for
G> each caste...
I REALLY like this idea, something like:
peasants = humble, obedient, loyal, etc
knights = loyal, brave, honest, etc
lords = loyal, wise, charming, etc
wizard = loyal, powerful, modest, etc
or were you thinking even more different than this?
G> The Henotheists interpolating a semi-feudal
G> relationship between God and His Angelic Host... Ritualized social
G> activity becoming empty religious ritual..? More expensive clothing
Yes this sounds good, I wonder if the text could be so obscure as
to allow a no 'angels' at all interpretaion... The bible is
almost this obscure, I think... I'm assuming that Malkioni have
a text... maybe they DON'T if its all oral then distortion is
very easy! (Pardon my thinking outloud)
G> restricted to higher castes and possessing some religious connotation
G> which demands and justifies its use... "So ye labour with the animal
G> as God has ordained, so must ye wear its skin..."
Well this won't work in quite this form (knight must wear
horsehide, Plowmen wear leather?) It seems to be basically on the
right track, ie: creation of doctrine
G> And what about the Invisible God being transcendent rather than
G> immanent? What are the implications for people's ways of thinking? A
G> tendency to discount the validity of physical experience? Or a lethal
This is mentioned in G:CoHW in the player's book... it says "The world
is full of temptaions to draw you into the material world at the expence
of his spiritual freedom." so I'd say discounting physical experience
is the way Malkionism goes.
G> Any takers for a philosophy born from the sad lessons of
G> the Gbaji Wars...?
Sounds interesting, but I'm against too much philosophy... the common
people during the middle ages fer'inst didn't know much about philosphy,
they knew about the myths of the Bible as presented in simple stories by
priests. I think something similar would be true in the West. The
problem I keep coming back to is that we don't know what these stories
are, so getting a feel for the West is like getting a feel for Sartar
without knowing anything about any of the gods except their names. Well
almost that bad....
G> Cullen "Can't we call them something a little less RW-ish? Saints and
G> Angels and the Creator..."
G> I'd dearly love someone to come up with evocative and non-connotative
G> words for Saints and Angels. (Avatars...? Shadows...? Children...?
G> Seneschals of the Lord...? erm... erm... *fingers drumming on table
Powers? Aeon, Archons (too Gnostic ??), Devas (nah too hindu), umm er...
An aside (in whispered tones):
Psst... by the way, my feeling is that the GL secret is that the gods
didn't exist at all before the God Learners, this is at least in part
prompted by the idea that changing the godplane can change Gloranthan
history and by the write-ups of Humct, Worlanth, and Ehilm in the
Prosopaedia from GoG. Whatya think?
Cullen
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From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
Subject: knock, knock &c.
Message-ID: <940527042509307@thuemmel.com>
Date: 27 May 94 16:09:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4218
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4169
S> In the end, you have LOTS of extra rain over any Orlanthi
S> territory. Magic ecology at its finest. Of course, PC
S> adventurer-types probably won't get Cloud Call too often, but the
This (along with Bless Crops) answers the question (in part) of why
Sartar is so very different from Prax in climate. In WF4 Greg says that
Prax and Sartar have different climates due to different magical
ecologies (or words to that effect), is this what he meant? Or are the
effects of Genert's death also more strongly felt on Prax, as I seem to
recall... But since cloud call is to the horizon shouldn't the areas on
the east of Sartar also become lush (as they are), making them desirable
as farmland? Since it was the Sartars (Sartari?) who made it lush some
of them might claim it was theirs... This might help to explain the Pol
Joni?? But they're not farmers... so why is it that they aren't?
Nomad raids or the effects Genert's death??
---------------------
Dogs Playing Poker (if that is indeed your REAL name) in X-RQ-ID: 4165
~~~~
D> Cullen O'Neill asked:
D> How many Orlanthi does it take to change a light bulb?
I wish I COULD take credit for this, but it was purely Sam Phillip's
idea! He had some great ones too, I especially liked LH, Gbaji (not
Nysolor? he is after all a god of Light(s) ), and the last three.
Note the similarity between the AH employees and the trolls, makes ya
think or somthin'...
Yours was as good as any of those...
So I felt inspired...
Q: How many Ancestor worshippers does it take to change a light bulb?
A: We will worship the departed and ask him to provide light for us at
our rituals, as he did when he lived...
Q: How many Chalana Arroys does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: OK, I ressurected it, of course you should have called me sooner; its
been 5 days, so it will now only give the light of a 15 Watt bulb.
Cullen
---------------------
From: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu (Loren J. Miller)
Subject: more responses to Devin
Message-ID: <01HCU7JV0ZZC8WW453@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: 27 May 94 10:44:40 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4219
Devin writes:
> I posted two long writeups of magic items and got no response
> whatsoever. Did they suck? Where they usable?
Sorry, I don't use third-party magic items unless they come with a
usable story attached. I suspect that many other readers felt
similarly.
> The party was basically geased by Mostali from the Nidan Mountains (the geas
> took the form of magically implanting iron time bombs inside the bodies of
> the PC's and promising to remove them when the geas was completed)
Sorry for descending to usage-flames, folks.
I find this irritating, mainly because I thought I was done being
"quested" and "geased" into the DM's fragile plotline when I stopped
playing AD&D. Why don't you use a word like "forced" or "impelled"
instead? Not only is this use of "geas" a D&Dism, but it also confuses
things with Humakti-style Geasa.
whoah,
+++++++++++++++++++++++23
Loren Miller internet: MILLERL@wharton.upenn.edu
"Enough sound bites. Let's get to work." -- Ross Perot sound bite
---------------------
From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Orlanthi custom
Message-ID: <9405272003.AA08078@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 27 May 94 20:03:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4220
Paul Reilly here.
Peter (aka Pam Carlson??) asks some very interesting questions. I will
to give some quick answers. No real sources, just the way I run things
in our campaigns:
>1. What happens if a human eats a chaotic critter, like a slime deer or a
>two-headed bunny?
This has not come up in a human campaign, however it does come up in our
Uz campaigns fairly often. I rule that a chaos creature is a sort of 'patch'
that Arachne Solara slaps over a chaos hole (due to the Law of Personalization).
More on this another time - sometimes the creature exists beforehand
and opens a chaos hole within itself, other times it is generated in response
to the hole, as in Thed's Chaos Spawn.
OK, so when is a creature spuffy and what is the effect of eating it?
Usually the chaos hole goes with the _spirit_, not the corpse and thus
it is ok to eat a _dead_ chaos critter. Best to check with your Storm
Bull buddies though, because sometimes (Chaos is unpredictable) the
spuffiness stays with the corpse.
If you eat something spuffy (like a live chaos critter, or, rarely, a
dead one) there is some chance of becoming spuffy yourself, following the
ancient Darkness principle of "You are what you eat." I think that this
is what happened to Bagog; once the great scorpion prowled the world, eating
Chaos. She ate too much to digest and become spuffy herself. Ooops.
This problem might be _more_ severe for humans, who have notoriously weak
digestions. However, it is possible that they could eat something spuffy
and survive unmutated: first, their weak stomachs might be unable to digest
the thing fully in which case the human could wind up untainted but
leave behind some spuffy feces. Second, it might just kill him.
>Does Walktapus have any side effects besides regeneration
>in-stomacho?
(I run the regeneration vs. stomach acid digestion as a race - don't eat
too much at once and you'll be ok.)
It could, depending on your campaign. In our campaign, it is 'unclean' to
eat the 'human' part of a Walktapus. Here's why: The Walktapus has a strange
form of reproduction. If it stuns a humanoid it uses its third tentacle to
"sting" the head of the humanoid. This leaves an embryonic Walktapus on
that head. It is very hard to remove as it regenerates. It grows like
a cancer and eventually covers the whole person over the course of a
season or two, consuming his substance in the process. Yuch. This has
to be caught early on and burned out with acid, it soon has tendrils into
the brain.
Second, eating human flesh opens you to involuntary initiation into a
cannibal cult; I use Cacodemon as god of cannibalism. Oops. Cacodemon
recruiters sometimes hawk cheap fried & breaded meat of uncertain origin
on street corners - "It's finger lickin' good!"
>2. How would an Orlanthi clan chief deal with a young man from his clan who
>had been caught robbing strangers?
It all depends. Were the victims fellow Orlanthi? Were they guest-holy?
Are they foreigners? Enemies? Etc.? Were he robbing enemies, he'd be
rewarded by his chief; if they were guests, he'd be outlawed.
Let's assume they are pretty neutral for the sake of argument.
>Fines?
Probably. I'd make him pay double restitution, plus an equal amount to the
clan elders as 'court costs'. Lots of historical precedent here.
If he were young and foolish and a close relative and the aggrieved parties
were amenable, I might suggest that if the stuff gets returned anonymously
the whole thing could be forgotten. Also depends on whether his shame is
public, in which case it must be dealt with, or whether I or the victims caught
him in private, in which case we might be able to handle it _sub rosa_. Note
also that my knowledge of the individual's character would influence my
response.
>Banishment?
If the victims were guests under my roof, a three-year outlawry might
be appropriate. If they were not guests but were either fellow Orlanthi
or some kind of respected neighbor, then perhaps one year. If they were
enemies of some sort, he might get rewarded. If for example we were
Sartarites under the Lunar occupation and he stole from Lunars, my response
would depend heavily on who knew about it. I might outlaw him to please
the Lunars but slip him my second best horse and a good sword on his
way out.
> Confinement?
Ugh. Orlanth would zap me. I might have him watched until sentencing if
I didn't trust his word or get his parole.
> Lop off body parts?
Urgh. What kind of person do you take me for? Actually, heavily
Westernized Orlanthi might stoop to this sort of thing. Yuch.
>Make him do extra work?
If he were just a thrall or something, he'd get this and a beating, and
his master would have to pay a fine. I think. Children might wind up with
this sort of punishment.
>3. Do Orlanthi farmers have to pay taxes to the clan to support the
>non-farmers (the poor, the housecarls, the smith)? Do their tithes they pay
>as initiates cover this?
I play that in the more 'primitive' or 'original' Orlanthi areas the
chiefs act as big-men. They have the biggest herds, plus certain special
privileges such as when triplet animals are born, one goes to the chief's
herd. This applies to triplet humans as well - one goes to the chief's
service, but this is rare.
The poor are supposed to be supported by their families and by giveaways
from the big men. This is one way to earn status in the society - look
at Hahlgrim in CoT. Note also that Generosity is one of the Six Virtues.
In Classical India people had to pay a certain fraction of their harvest
to the village carpenter and the potter. I do this with the Pelorians. For
Orlanthi, the smith supports himself by straight trade or is supported
by the chief, depending on local culture. I don't think they use
the percentage arrangement.
Oh, when white animals are born (albinos too) they are given to the
Healers. Certain other traditional arrangements apply as well.
Orphans are to be raised by the family. If the family is too poor or
nonexistent then they are the clan chief's responsibilty.
Clan chiefs can squeeze out a lot of money from their member if they are
right bastards. We had a scenario where the King of Tarsh gave tax relief
to an area that had been hard hit by famine and disease among the herds.
A clan chief did not tell the people about this but kept collecting
taxes and pocketing them, divering some of the money to the Exiles on
Wintertop. Led to a bad situation when the Lunars found out.
Their tithes as initiates do NOT cover this, except if the priests want
to be seen as big men. The temple will put on feasts and whatnot out of the
tithe (which is typically grain or animals anyway) which are open to all
Initiates, probably their children as well. These feasts are a major
redistribution of wealth and some of the poorer people probably get most of
their meat at occasions like this sponsored by the temple or the clan.
Good questions!
More later, Paul
---------------------
From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 27 May 1994, part 2
Message-ID: <9405271618.tn557196@aol.com>
Date: 27 May 94 20:18:09 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4221
Devin Cutler:
Sandy writes (after giving an expanded version of the Saints' Blessings ...
thanks Sandy!):
"My players saw a real dragon once -- the black dragon up by
Cragspider's. 'Twas asleep at the time. "
One of my players saw a True Dragon while traversing a Dragonewts Road (it is
a long story). I had him make a Con x5% roll or die of fright. Having
succeeded, I had him make an Int x1% roll or go insane for D8 Seasons. The
rest of the party found him gibbering and drooling at the end point of the
Plinth Road.
Pam writes:
"End tirade. I appologize if there are lots of dogs in Glorantha, but I
certainly haven't found many. Does anyone else want to see more canids, or
have I been sniffing too much flea spray?"
Well, there are certainly dogs in Balazar. In fact, they worship a
spirit/deity called Brother Dog, can speak with Canines, and basically relate
to dogs in much the same way Praxians relate to their animals (albeit the
Balazarings don't ride their dogs and probably don't eat them).
Paul Snow writes:
" IMHO the rules for trading in Classic Traveller were easy to use and
seemed fairly sensible"
The concept is fine, but the Traveller charts were subject to rampant abuse.
The problem with trying to quantify Trading Rules is that there are so many
economic factors, and player characters often ignore motivations that would
be present were they actual living beings, that it becomes very easy for any
Trade Rules to be abused.
This is not to say that we shouldn't try to come up with better rules, its
just that it should be recognized that ANy Trade RUles system that we end up
liking will probably have to include a strong component of GM adjudication.
"If you want help for trading, I have one word for you: "Eldarad". <*DUCK!*>
No, seriously! The one thing I found helpful in "Eldarad" was the table of
barter-goods and corresponding values."
It seems (and I agree) that the best part of Eldarad (or to many the ONLY
good part of Eldarad) was its barter system. Anyone experience problems with
it (or if I'm the only one who ran that scenario, does anyone speculate on
any problems with it)?
Brent gives an example of a crazy Agimori, which brings up a question:
There was some discussion a while back on the fact that, in Pamaltela, not
all Agimori were men-and-a-half.
Fine, I can accept that. But do the men-and-a-half still exist (they did as
of RoC)? If so, how common are they, and what determines if an Agimori baby
will become a Man+1/2 or not? How does the distinction between "regular
Agimori" and men+1/2 relate to the supposedly immortal Agimori who have never
tasted water?
Finally, it seems that the only Agimori met in Prax are men+1/2. Is this the
case? Perhaps, knowing the journey from Pamaltela to Genertela would be
dangerous, only men+1/2 were taken, and that men+1/2 always breed true. Any
thoughts?
Loren writes:
" Do I hear you
volunteering, Devin?"
Sure do, just you wait-)
"
anyone. Worship will give those characters the edge on their opponents
whenever they are in a heroquest, and IMHO if they accept the aid they
have available from worship then the benefits of the HQ are shared
with their worshippers."
WIth the Will system of HQ, I allow that each point of POW sacrificed gives 1
WILL usable on the Heroquest.
Robert writes:
"All this indicates, to players of Runequest, that they can continue to be
together as they advance in their relgions. It is not uncommon to have a
group of high-level characters."
The problem in GoG is that Runelords must spend 90% of their time in cult
service. While such cult service is certainly the fodder for some great
adventures, the problem really arises when you have two Runelords of separate
cults trying to run together. What Orlanthi value as cult service is likely
to be completely different than what Yelmalio(s) value as cult service.
For example, raiding and slaying a batch of Zorak Zorani would probably fall
under a Yelmalian Light Captain's cultic duties, but certainly the same could
not be said of his Wind Lord companion.
I have found that, in order to run Runelord parties of different cults, you
must do one of three things:
1) Ignore the GoG parameters and go for it
2) Create a party of Runelords who are all of the same cult or closely
associated cults
3) Provide a campaign wherein a single overriding necessity makes for a
common interest amongst all cults.
In my campaign right now, the Block is cracking and something evil is
starting to seep back into the world. Since this is a paramout importance to
both Yelmalio and Orlanth, Thane Kiri Windstrm, an Illuminated Orlanthi Wind
Lord, has borrowed from his travels in the West and has set up an order of
Knighthood dedicated to attempting to thwart the rise of evil from under the
Block. The Order has two branches, the Order of the Storm and the Order of
the Sun (Orlanthi and Yelmalians respectively.
Kiri works in close coordination with Sun County (in Dragon Pass...which I
play is still Yelmalian), and this allows Orlanthi Windlords and Yelmalian
Runelords to travel together on Cultic business.
Martin writes:
"Does anybody else on the list want to read anything more
about this initiation argument (or, for that matter, the related
threads)? I'd like to see the Aeolian church write-up, but
debating it before seeing it seems a tad ... something. Anyway,
subtle hints from several quarters having failed, I join in the
plea for a cease-fire."
Well, it would certinaly save my wrist from carpal-tunnel syndrome when I
have to scroll past the Initiation debates.
" Yeah, there's a perceived problem. But you haven't
articulated a convincing argument in favor of it. And if you
don't want to talk about it anymore, don't expect to have the
last word on the Daily. :-P"
IMO I have articulated a convincing argument, but maybe we should argue about
that-)
And who says I don't want to talk about it anymore? I just want to try and
spare those who ARE sick of it from endless rehashes (of which I myself am
guilty). I am still keen to debate this point privately, and have been doing
so with several people (right Joerg?). Feel free to continue this discussion
by e-mail with me, and if anything world-shattering breaks out, we can post
it to the net.
So see, I got the last word after all (g)
"I had a player in my first D&D campaign whose character was
a cleric of himself..."
This is a great line. Was he guilty of mastersupplication-)
Regards,
Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com