From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 28 May 1994, part 5
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
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From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 27 May 1994, part 5
Message-ID: <9405272159.AA18497@keppel.dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Date: 27 May 94 21:59:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4226
> Devin Cutler here:
> Nevertheless, people react differently when presented with a belief as
> compared to when presented with the physical presence or manifestation of
> power of a deity.
And what about a belief _in_ the physical presence or manifestation of the
power of a deity? Our disagreement seems to be about how much the
"orthodox" view of Glorantha, that Gods exist in a real deterministic,
provable sense reinforces what we seem to broadly agree many earthly
people believed anyway.
Also, much discussion of late has been about the Invisible God, who of course
_doesn't_ exist in a deterministic, provable way.
> Many modern day Christians and other modern day religious persons will
> certainly say that without a doubt they believe in their God and hgis
> omnipotence. Nevertheless, I can imagine that if God were to make blatant
> weekly showings of His powers, then these persons would become much more
> devout.
What part of Glorantha is (almost any of) modern-day earth a fruitful
comparison for?
> The pre-Renaissance persons may have believed their God was active, but they
> never saw such activity. Physical proof is a wonderful motivater.
And if they believed they saw such activity, as many of them clearly did,
ditto.
> In addition, even in pre-Renaissance times their were many, especially
> amongst the learned or the nobility or the well-to-do, who, while paying lip
> service to belief in a God or gods, did not truly believe in such. Certainly,
> the Romans were a good example of this.
The Romans may not have been "pious" in the way many people understand the
term, but they seem to have been pretty superstitious, and felt the forms
of religious observance to be important. I see no reason to rule out
comparable religions from Glorantha.
> The divinatory information from Gaumata's Vision at the very least tells you
> pretty much without uncertainty that a village somewhere in Sun County has
> been corrupted with Chaos. When I ran the scenario, this was deduced by the
> players instantly without any thought whatsoever.
This sort of deduction is often aided by thoughts such as "We're in the
obvious "hook" part of the scenario, so..." Maybe you just have keen
players.
> In RQ2, many cults would use Divination to screen out initiates. Cults of
> Terror mentions this many times, and such mentions suggest that this
> information is reliable (i.e. at least Pow 18 Priest x5%=90% of the time).
Reliable in what way? Reliable as in "gives an answer which can be
interpreted as indicating whether to accept the candidate", or reliable as
in "gives a readout on his relevant skill numbers, moral values, personal
qualities, and hidden motivations"? Given the number of ogres floating round
in "legitimate" cults, it's not what _I'd_ call reliable.
Martin Crim:
> Alex says: "Wakboth is making me post [this long message on
> initiation]."
[...]
> Anyway,
> subtle hints from several quarters having failed, I join in the
> plea for a cease-fire.
No promises, but I'm inclined to ease off on the mega-diatribes, at least
long enough to see if the discussion dies a natural death without me
animating its rotting corpse artificially.
Alex.
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From: mmlab!cookec%max.mml.mmc.com@uunet.UU.NET (Chris Cooke)
Subject: Eurmal wants me to(o)!
Message-ID: <9405280021.AA11807@relay3.UU.NET>
Date: 28 May 94 00:22:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4227
: Peter Whitelaw:
: > Has anyone ever noticed how few questions ever get answered here?
: ...
: > Someone else asked about the Gagarthi (Chris someone) did he get any
: > answers? Not one. I asked if anyone wanted me to post a load of non-
: > Gloranthan material for your perusal, delectation, comment or dismissal.
: > But one lonely reply.
Just the opposite!!!
As the Chris _someone_ you mention, I felt I should state WITHOUT A DOUBT I
have received more help from this forum then may be apparent. Much of it has
come via E-mail conversations started with a question posted here. Perhaps I
should post more? I still feel rather the new kid in town... I don't have
much _formal_ material, I tend to make up what I need as I go. Given the many
helpful experts, I hesitate to jump in.
The assistance I've gotten here has helped make my ongoing campaign (1 year+)
such a hit, I have players on a waiting list. Thanks go to David Cheng for
getting me started with his initial source list, Sandy for so much I don't
know where to begin, Jeorg, Tim Posney, David Cake, Nick Brooke, Jim Rogers,
Shannon, Henk, David Cutler, Curtis Taylor, Greg Fried, Loren, Dave Camoirano,
and a host of MANY others.
: What a load of crap! I recall at least three helpful posters giving Chris
: Someone chapter and verse on Gagarth, before Sandy posted the entire text
: of the official Chaosium cult write-up. Were you asleep at the time?
Hmmm, I caught the ToTRM referance but I must have missed the cult posting.
It helped some but since David Gadbois informed me all issues save #5,10,11
are unavailable it wasn't that much help... Sandy, could I persuade you to
Email me the write-up you posted? I made up what I needed but I'd prefer to
have the real thing for future referance(Arnold voice - I'll be BACK).
This brings me to a point, the learned dissertations a interesting but
when they drone on in paragraphs longer then my 80 line screen, I go into
BRAIN DAZE. Could we keep with regular(or at least shorter) paragraphs?
: I thought I was doing you a kindness by not rejecting your offer of "some
: non-Gloranthan campaign notes from a friend's campaign" sight unseen. I
: imagine that they would not be my cup of tea; that they would fit better in
: a Digest format which allows us some control over receipt (as happened with
: Sandy's wonderful Tekumel conversions). Why not ask Henk about the chances
: of your material earning this? As you want answers, *any* answers: No, I
: don't believe I'd be interested in them. That's two replies, now. Happy?
I personally would like to see as much RQ and similer as possible. My
campaign freely mixes a bit of Elric, a touch of Sandy's EPT, and
similer(mostly creatures, sceniaro possibilities or whatever fits my "feel"
for Glorantha) with my Gloranthan material. I may not be a purist but my
group and I have a blast!!!
: Now, in response to Devin Cutler's informal poll:
:
: > "How many people who write, or post, about Glorantha aren't also players (or
: > refs) of the game?"
: >
: > I wonder that myself sometimes, given the level of unconsideration to gaming
: > issues on this Daily. Perhaps an informal poll is in order?
I am perhaps backwards? I am and always have been primarily a ref.
I played a couple times in our spinoff but it didn't workout so well. I found
the new ref always asking for my help until I was basicly running the spinoff
too. I did keep him honest though...(oh the complaints I heard :-( )
I decided to let him try it on his own(just answering his questions and such)
but that isn't working well either. his personality doesn't seem to lend
itself to GMing. "you'll do this because god wants you to but your god isn't
really telling you that and if you don't that high level NPC will kill you"
*sigh* too bad, it was fun to play a bit too... QUACK!!!
--
/> Chris Cooke
//
(//////[O]>=========================================-
\\
\> cookec@mml.mmc.com
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From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: Re:Details of Gloranthan Life Questions
Message-ID: <9405272031.tn564758@aol.com>
Date: 28 May 94 00:31:44 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4228
In X-RQ-ID: 4186 Pam Carlson asks
>2. How would an Orlanthi clan chief deal with a young man from his clan
>who had been caught robbing strangers? Fines? Banishment? Confinement?
>Lop off body parts? Make him do extra work?
In my Glorantha, it would all depend on the victims.
If the strangers were Lunars or other clan enemies, and they were unable to
exact vengence on the clan, then the young man would likely receive praise
from his clan.
If the strangers were good Orlanthi, and not from a hostile clan, then
things would be different. The young man might be forced to pay some sort
of weregeld if the victim is of no great importance. If the victim has
power to harm the clan, then banishment would likely be the punishment.
I don't see the Orlanthi dismembering people or confining anyone under
normal circumstances. Mobility and Mastery and all that...
Pam also says...
>And (mount soapbox)
>THERE SHOULD BE MORE DOGS IN RQ! Where are the big dogs who guard
>caravans at night? The dogs of any size who travel w/ adventurers to hear
>or smell those pesky trollkin before they get off the first round of
>slingstones? The Coursing Hounds of Prax? The herding dogs of Sartar?
>(Just try and get an alynx to bring in 1000 sheep.) A Yelmalio file's
>mascot who wears the unit's logo and wins big at the dogfights? I realize
>that several groups of Gloranthans identify strongly with other animals,
>but how could so many cultures fail to keep such a fabulously useful
>beastie? Just because certain pre-RQ games had the ubiquitous "war dog"
>which could be purchased fully trained, loyal, and practically stuffed
>into the bottomless adventurers pack when not in use doesn't mean that
>dogs should be tossed out along with alignments and maps of the
>netherworld.
As an Orlanthi player character who owns several shadowcats (or alynxes if
you'd prefer), I must leap to defend the shadowcat. ;-)
My shadowcat almost always gave me advance warning when the trollkin were
out skulking. And about those sheep, who says an alynx would have any more
problems bringing them in than a dog?
Just because earth cats are too independent and free willed to go out
and do a boring job like herding sheep doesn't mean that Gloranthan cats
can't do it.
I can't really say what sort of animals that the Praxians use to help with
the herding duties. But in my Sartar you won't find many herd dogs, but
you'll find quite a few herd alynxes.
I agree that we shouldn't throw dogs out of Glorantha, but I don't think we
should deny cats their rightful place in Gloranthan society either.
;-)
-Matt Thale
---------------------
From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: Campaign Stories
Message-ID: <9405272031.tn564760@aol.com>
Date: 28 May 94 00:31:49 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4229
To all who are posting campaign stories...
Thank you very much! Keep the stories coming!
And hopefully I'll have some stories of my own
to contribute after I start my RQ campaign in
2 weeks.
-Matt Thale
---------------------
From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: dribs and drabs
Message-ID: <9405272214.tn567541@aol.com>
Date: 28 May 94 02:14:20 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4230
Re: What kind of game?
I haven't GMed RQ in some years. When I did, it was a
decidedly heroic game, with much heroquesting and Grand Events.
The main character was a troll who once killed several thousand
humans in a matter of minutes--but it was for their own good.
They had been led astray by a false messiah, who was actually a
minion of the Devil. He had caused Genert's Waste to blossom and
grow lush, so they were quite impressed and followed him out to a
spot near the Tunnelled Hills. The troll heroine figured out
what was going on by the simple expedient of talking to the
Messiah and getting converted to believing in him through his
powerful chaotic magic. However, another PC managed to rescue
her, and she went to where most of the Messiah's followers were
camped out and there activated a heroquest magic of her own, a
drum which caused an area-effect Fearshock. This killed quite a
few people outright, and many more were trampled in the stampede. (She got
the drum as a reward for recreating Kyger Litor's "Skinning of Thed" by
skinning 100 broos and stretching their skins over a drum made from a giant
redwood.)
The only game I'm in right now is much lower-powered, but
still in the heroic tradition. My character is almost qualified
to be a Wind Voice. In our most recent games, we ran the
Troubled Waters scenario.
New topic: Talking Funny
One problem that I've come across in better games is my not
knowing how to address an important personage. This is more than
not knowing what the proper term of address is, whether it's
"your grace," "your holiness," or "your blueness," for example.
(Hmm, maybe the Vadeli were Blue Meanies?) It's also the proper
form of abasement or haughtiness. Both can be given as
information to the player with a Custom (People) roll. If the
character doesn't know, he can fall back on an analogous
situation he is familiar with. But how many GMs tell you, for
example, that the proper way to talk to a Storm Khan is by not
taking any crap, being extremely blustery, etc., while the proper
way to talk to a Waha Khan is to be very deferential, self-
deprecating, and supplicating. (I'm making these examples up).
The only examples of this we have are with trolls: the
greeting ritual (here, eat this instead of me), the conciliation
prayers, and the posture.
I think it's important to know how to address people of
different stations in life. In America, at least, this is not
something that's a big deal, and the differences are not
consciously thought about and are, in fact, taboo to talk about.
Someone will probably write in to the Daily to tell me that we're
all middle class here and have no terms of address or different
ways of talking to people based on their status. (That's why
reporters are rude to the President.)
Anyway, I'd like to see more of this. Obviously,
sophisticated cultures like the Lunars and Malkioni have lots of
status-based ways of talking to people. Courtly manners and
language have their place in those cultures. But what about the
Orlanthi? Does a Sartarite freeholder talk differently to his
tribal king than to a thrall? I'd say the difference was pretty
subtle, not only because the Sartarites are a freedom-loving
bunch, but also for maximum culture shock with the Lunars.
I don't think any Gloranthan cultures are as hide-bound as
the Tsolyanu of Tekumel, with their 23 (or however many) forms of the second
person singular pronoun. Feel free to disagree.
Re: human eats chaotic bunny
I'd say nothing happens ... usually. A rare chaotic feature is
"taints eater with chaos." Among some folks, like trolls, eating
your foes is de rigueur.
Re: Orlanthi dealing with thief in their midst
Ooh! Ooh! Legal questions! I love this. And it even gets
the Classic Legal Answer: "it depends."
If the clan guy stole from some visiting merchants or fellow
Orlanthi, and the clan chief wants the merchants/Orlanthi to come
back again, he'd make his clansman return the stolen property and
pay a penalty in goods or services (since coins are pretty rare).
If the chief doesn't care about the merchants, he'd do nothing.
The merchants, if they know Orlanthi justice, might invoke the
process described in KoS (q.v.).
If the clan guy stole from some random stranger, the chief
will want his share. If the stranger was an enemy, like a Lunar,
then the chief might praise the clansman and otherwise do right
by him--but he'll still want his share of the loot.
Re: Orlanthi taxes to support non-farmers
The poor work for a living, it's just a bad living.
Housecarls in Sartar do some farming, and take largesse from
their chief, who gets it from the farmers as taxes. The smith
gets paid by the farmers (in bushels of grain) for shoeing their
horses (does anybody know if there are such things as bronze
horseshoes?), making their pots and swords, etc. No, their
tithes to the temple are separate.
Re: Doggies
Quite agree. Why don't you write some of these up?
Something along the lines of:
Sartarite Sheepdog: SIZ 4-5; white or gray; built for long-
distance running. Loyal, hard-working, easy to train, and very
demanding in time and energy to keep. The average Sartarite
shepherd keeps 3 dogs, and feeds them on ... [this is where I run
out of steam, being more of a cat person than a dog person].
Re: Scholar/Gamer
Much as I'd like to reply to Devin's last round of comments,
and especially his "who, me? I didn't call anybody a scholar"
pose, I think we've exhausted this subject and so I will restrain
myself.
Re: Immanence and Transcendence
Unlike Paul, I see both the Hrestoli and the Rokari leaning
towards transcendence, along with the Brithini, Sedalpists, and
Vadeli. Here are some of the corollaries of this belief: the
world is the creation of the IG, and therefore inferior to Him.
The world is a thing made with a purpose, which is to take us
beyond it, to Solace. Making is good, in imitation of the IG.
The Hrestoli see the caste progression as a way toward perfection
and thus departure to the right afterlife. The Rokari see strict
caste obedience as the way to achieve this. All these sects
stress gnosis over experience. They see the world as the
interaction of impersonal forces, which the individual must face
to achieve his goals. Individuals must restrain their impulses
and direct themselves toward a lofty goal. These sects teach
that there is a universal truth to be learned, and the modern
sects believe they ought to proselytize it. Both the Hrestoli
and Rokari think about the future (where they'll find Solace),
not the here and now.
By contrast, the Stygians, Henotheists, Boristi, Galvosti,
and (oddly enough) Jonatings stress the IG's immanence. The see
the universe as good, because the IG is immanent in it. They
stress growing over making, experience over gnosis, present over
future, etc. (all the opposite of the transcendence guys, except for
proselytizing, which they do too). A lot of them believe in reincarnation.
The Carmanians are also probably ones who stress the IG's
immanence (when they think about him at all), but I defer to
Nick's superior sources and enormous investment of time in that
sect.
Anyway, I'd much rather discuss this on the Daily than some
other topics going on (all right, I'm not coy: than initiation,
for starters).
--Martin
---------------------
From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: mystery deity; Safelster; priests
Message-ID: <199405280355.AA15837@radiomail.net>
Date: 28 May 94 03:55:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4231
Joerg said
>important are King Heort, Barntar, the Lowfires, St. Aeol (courtesy
>David Hall), the Bretwalda (Pharaoh), Bingista, Esra etc.
Who is Bingista?
Graeme said
>Ralios on the other hand seems to be
>many small principalities over most of its domain, leading me to
>suspect that it's all hilly, forested, broken terrain, with easy
>transport only allowed by the rivers.
That doesn't fit with the large map in Glorantha, which shows all of
Safelster as lowlands. Maybe there's some weird magical effects, like your
heresy's magic gets less powerful as you get further from your home city.
If you manage to conquer another city, you can take over their magic too,
and extend your border (much like the Glowline).
> Surprisingly, David Dunham responds to my question about RoC rune level
>skill requirements:
>>I welcome the change (I think), as it seemed that becoming an acolyte
>>was too easy, being mostly a matter of time
>>(50% skill is easy, 10 surplus POW is relatively easy)
>
> The 10 surplus depends (in RQ3) on what happens to cast rune magic by
>initiates. If spells learnt and cast counts towards the 10, fine. If it
>doesn't, things become harder.
In Adventures in Glorantha, it's only currently available rune magic. This
fits the way we'd always played RQ3 -- if you'd cast the spell (and hadn't
regained it somehow -- AiG allows initiates to regain one point/year), it
didn't count towards the 10.
If the spells aren't available to you when you become an acolyte/priest,
what's the point of requiring 10 points of rune magic?
---------------------
From: drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu (David Cheng)
Subject: RQ-Con Booklets Sent
Message-ID:
Date: 28 May 94 04:09:23 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4232
Just a quick notice:
The first batch of RQ-Con booklets went out in Friday's mail, all first
class or air mail. The orders I've received and sent are from:
Brian Hebert, Jeff Freymeuller, David Schubert, Chris Pound, Kent
Christensen, Barron Chugg, Peter Wotruba, Brent Krupp, Jim Catel, Martin
Crim, Eric Scharf, Jim Wright, Bo Rosen, Guy Hoyle, Troy Selyem, Dan
MacDonald, Nigel Johnston, Michelle Ringo, Gerald Bosch, Fred Schiff, Devin
Cutler, Chris Cooke, Matt Thale, Book Stan, and Erich Schmidt.
I think it's interesting, and not at all surprising, that over 70% of these
folks are on the West Coast. See y'all at RuneQuest-Con 2!
I haven't yet sold out of any of the items:
* The Rough Guide to Boldhome
* The RuneQuest-Con Program Guide
* Lunar Coins
. . . so if you're still interested, get your orders in. Email me for more
info if needed.
RUNEQUEST-CON COMPENDIUM SUBMISSIONS STILL SOUGHT
I am going to start laying out the book. There are many of you who haven't
yet sent in your HotB stories, Orlanthi Legends, Geo's Recipies, etc. How
'bout we move the deadline back to the middle of June. If your stuff gets
printed, you get a free copy of the book!
Contact me for more info.
* David Cheng drcheng@sales.stern.nyu.edu cheng@io.com
(212) 472-7752 [before midnight] GEnie: D.CHENG
---------------------