From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 06 Jun 1994, part 2
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk
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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
Subject: Re: Dark Woman
Message-ID: <9406042123.AA17834@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 94 21:23:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4378
Paul Reilly here
Boris writes:
And finally, the subject that's on everybody's mind, Devin's riddles.
The first seems easy enough for everybody (though Paul Reilly makes a
cryptic comment about the First and Second Gifts of the Dark Woman;
who is this, Subere, or Nakala? And what was her second gift?)
Dark Woman = Subere
First Gift = Death
Second Gift = Black Eater.
Note that when Arkat tried to use the Black Eater against "Gbaji" it
seemed to fail. This sort of backfire was to be expected- went he quested
to receive the Second Gift he must have been following the Trickster's path,
not recommended.
Subere is, IMO, one of those deities NOT dependent on mortal worship. She
is at the very bottom of Hell - below her is Chaos. She has the power to
stand against Chaos.
Alex writes:
> (Does Glorantha have eclipses?)
Jugger probably can cause rare eclipses. Annilla is HIGHER than Yelm (after
all she overcame him) and won't. There is a crescent shaped trak north of the
Crater that should have Eclipses, think about it. There is probably a
Temple of the Eclipse there. The track moves south in summer and north
in winter.
> What about burial alive? Let's not forget those rave-faves, castration, and
>Putting Out of The Eyes, for "lesser" offences (or as a preamble to execution).
And being tied in a sack with a cat, a dog, a snake, and a cock (I think?)
and being thrown into a river. For parricides.
>Vormainians: a variety of _efficient_ methods.
We had a Vormanian, Tora, in our campaign as a 'guest star'. He was
carrying a
letter to the Red Emperor but was a bit lost. Tora was a _samurai_ who had
a little companion who translated for him. Tora had learned the guy's
language, the "Barbarian Tongue". He was very annoyed when he found out
that barbarians had more than one language.
Tora got annoyed easily and tended to lop off people's heads. One day
a Eurmali was reaching out for his purse; Tora lopped off his hand in the
blink of an eye. The Trickster held up his remaining hand and bleeding
stump, regarded them, and cried "Now I'm assymmetrical!" Vormainians love
symmetry...
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From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: Starting a new campaign
Message-ID: <9406042140.AA12694@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 94 21:40:59 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4379
Mike Dawson here, not Kirsten Niemann.
Alistair Langsford asked about starting a new campaign, specifying
that it would be for people who have not played RQ before. I assume
they are gamers who are just new to the system, but that doesn't
really matter for my suggestions.
I would start off some militiamen in Queenscliff. That's what I did
when I started up my game a few years ago. Most of my players were
new to RQ, but I had a couple who hadn't gamed at all and one (Martin
Crim) who was a Gloranthophiend.
(As an aside, I limited Martin's impact on a bunch of new players by
making him a foreign Sun Domer from Dragon Pass. His character was
not like the folks of Sun County.)
Sun Dome militiamen are several things that make them easy to run for
beginning players (and beginning refs):
1) easily sterotyped
Nick Brooke referred to them as "uptight spartans in the wild
west" to paraphrase.
2) highly provincial
They don't travel much or know much about the outside world.This
reduces the amount of time you have to explain about the world.
3) xenophobic
see above
4) unified in concept
makes the players work hard to make themselves different
5) easy to order around by NPC bigwigs
That's enough.
So, I wanted to play some of the Sun County adventures (it was
supposed to be a playtest run, but never got that far). I looked at
the various scenarios in Sun County, and realized that none of them
were right for beginnners.
What to do? I came up with a pleasant little adventure called
Gaumata's Vision.
If I was in a sitution where I had to rely on the extant published
material for my campaign, I think I would run things this way:
A few of the scenario hooks in Sun County
A visit to Garhound, probably not as contestants
Gaumata's Vision, preferably with the "Wrong Village" scenario first
River of Cradles scenarios, especially if you can find some mythinc
way to make the PCs more important than RoC does. (This is what I am
doing in my campaign.)
The rest of Shadows on the Borderlands
If they survive that far, send 'em off into Strangers in Prax.
That should keep you busy one night a week for a couple of years.
On another note, Codex #2 goes to press next week, come Wakboth or
Uleria. I sprained my ankle this week, keeping me from getting it
done.
And I have already started laying out #3. Hopefully that will be out
for Convulsion.
Mike
--
------------
Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com
for information about Codex Magazine.
UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk
"Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha" .
------------------------------------------------------/_\
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From: eco0kkn@cabell.vcu.edu (Kirsten K. Niemann)
Subject: Kudos and other stuff
Message-ID: <9406042212.AA14629@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 4 Jun 94 22:12:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4380
Wow, catching up on Dailies is a full-day job. Figures the Digest
would get hopping on a weekend where I am away for 4 days in a row.
Mike Dawson here, not Kirsten Niemann.
----About David Dunham's Campaign write-up
REally good, even though it was about...initiation.
-----Paul Reilly and discussion of Western Philosophy
I for one, do feel that this stuff belongs right here in the daily.
Don't take it to email.
Mike
--
------------
Gloranthophiles need to contact me at codexzine@aol.com
for information about Codex Magazine.
UK Gloranthophiles write to cphillips@blue.demon.co.uk
"Inquiries into the nature and secrets of Glorantha" .
------------------------------------------------------/_\
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From: 100102.3001@CompuServe.COM (Peter J. Whitelaw)
Subject: Wow
Message-ID: <940604223855_100102.3001_BHJ44-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 4 Jun 94 22:38:55 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4381
I'd just like to thank Stephen Martin for his monumental Gloranthan index. It
must have taken an age to prepare.
But,
> SOURCES: OFFICIAL
>[...]
>Lords of Terror III
Que?
All the best,
Peter :-%
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From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: Some Replies, and a Malkionic theory
Message-ID: <9406050457.AA09975@Sun.COM>
Date: 5 Jun 94 19:56:03 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4382
Nick Brooke replying to Neil someone:
>Neil wrote:
>> In my eyes, it is the perfect opportunity for the Lunars to do some
>> subtle conversion on an impressionable youth... Does anyone have any
>> hints about a good way to get the character converted and have the
>> player start realizing it only once it has happened.
In our Prax campaign a Storm Bull PC decided to learn some New Pelorian.
The GM slipped some illumination questions into the lessons:
"Repeat after me: Where does the fire go when you put it out?"
>Here's a very simple/subtle one. Have you read "1984"? In my Glorantha, the
>Lunar language of "New Pelorian" was created with motives very similar to
>those that led to Ingsoc's "Newspeak" (indeed, the New Pelorian for New
One somewhat more positive level, Iain Banks' Marain, the language of the
Culture, is similar.
While I like this idea, are the Lunars that sophisticated? Even with the
magic,they are Bronze age culture. And if they tried it, I doubt they would
have been totally successful, as regional dialects and jargon appeared.
David Dunham's Wind Run: I like this spell a lot!
Alex Ferguson writes:
>Female caste stricture: do what hubby/daddy/nearest upwind male authority
>tells you to.
Very likely. It's been pointed out to me (by John Hughes and Paul Reilly)
that if there is a single female caste, then it's a class, not caste system.
According to John, the definition of caste is an "endogenous (i.e. in-marrying)
occupation based social structure".
>Actually, I think the Hrestol maintain the one-female-caste situation.
Another argument for this is the idea of a Hrestoli with a wife being
promoted ahead of him. I doubt even Hrestoli Westerners would accept this.
However, this doesn't necessarily mean the women are oppressed: not
being part of the restrictive class system could be an advantage.
> Also, Alex gives many forms of execution, a wonder to behold and a joy for
>any wide ranging party.
>our idea of post-Malkion, pre-Hrestol Malkioni
>is fairly vague, and corresponds in no obvious way to any current sect.
>(Unlike pre-Malkion and post-Hrestol.)
I've an alternative theory concerning the "what happenned after Malkion"
question. I found an interesting paragraph in CoT:
"Western Genertela was the source of the humanists. The culture
began on the land of Brithos, and was ancient even before Time
began. It was so old that it had schisms within it even during
the Dawn Age. For instance, the Old Malkioni religion was long
forgotten, dead when the god was killed, and instead the Wizards'
secrets gave spiritual mastery and fulillment for the people, but
the dawning of year 2 established the New Malkioni religion - the
spiritual support of the Hrestol knights."
While this is over 10 years old and could be considered out of
date, it does lead to another scenario: Malkion the Prophet
was the one who saved the Kingdom of Logic, and then gave the
Brithini their social classes and _taught them Solace_. During
the Great Darkness Malkion died and the Brithini religion could
no longer reach Solace, which had required the living presence of
Malkion (in many ways similar to the Dragonewt cycle). By the Dawn
almost all memory of Solace had gone from the Brithini, when Hrestol
received his visit from the Prophet.
This alternative scenario explains a great deal IMO: why the
West seemed to be Brithini at the Dawn (Hrestol is referred to
once as a Talar), why the Rokarian attempt to return to pre-Hrestol
Malkionism is basically recreating the Brithini with Solace. It
would also explain why Malkion is part of Brithini and Western culture,
when the Brithini don't accept what seems to be Malkion's basic message,
that of Solace. Those Brithini that accepted Hrestol's revelation (perhaps
the majority in Western Genertela) have all died by now, leaving only
those who rejected him. In this scenario, it's Hrestol's revelation that
breaks caste strictures and causes aging, not Malkion's.
It's even possible that Malkion said nothing about immortality (ageing
may not have been a big problem that far back in Godtime). Malkion
promised something better, true immortality in Solace. The immortality may
be a result of Zzabur's work, trying to give the Brithini the nearest
equivalent to Malkion's Solace which they could no longer reach. I think
by the dawn Zzabur was the only person who would actually have known Malkion.
--
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra.
"I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard"
Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.
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From: hmangold@muselab.ac.runet.edu
Subject: Additions to the Index
Message-ID: <9406051602.AA06945@muselab.ac.runet.edu>
Date: 5 Jun 94 16:02:45 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4383
Salutations, all. I'm kind of an infrequent poter here, but I'm going to
try to take a more active role, if possible. I've been playing/reading RQ
for about 9 years now, and i must say that the discussion quality on here
is of a very high caliber IMHO. I think that the gamer/scholar ratio is
just about right.
Anyway, just got the RQ Index. Wow! A *hell* of a lot of work
went into this thing. My complements to Steven Martin. I think I found
some stuff that he missed, however (I'd email him privately, but I can't
find his e-mail address. D'OH!).
The one that I can report concretely right now is the cult
write-up for the Cult of Ragnaglar by Gary James. It appeared in issue
4 of the Australian magazine Multiverse, the Winter 1985 issue. Also
included is a bit on something called Elemental Demons.
I seem to also remember a whole bunch of RQ article from White Dwarf
that also were not included. The one that comes most readily to mind was
one dealing with Gloranthan demons. Hmmm. I'll have to check my vast
archives for this stuff. If Steven Martin could please contact me, or
someone could post his address, I think i can help to fill in some holes.
Did evrybody check out the new issue of Dragon magazine? Sandy
has an article in there on a rather unique Draconic entity. Comments anyone?
Hal Mangold
hmangold@muselab.ac.runet.edu
Savage Henry
SvgeHenry@aol.com
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From: niwe@ppvku.ericsson.se (Nils Weinander)
Subject: Some Kralorelan stuff
Message-ID: <9406051754.AA02234@ppvku.ericsson.se>
Date: 5 Jun 94 21:54:15 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4384
Nils Weinander writing
Here is a first faltering attempt at exploring Kralorelan culture.
Praise and flame are both welcome, though not equally so :-).
In the text everything within {} is comments from me.
From the Scrolls of Past Masters and Solemn Erudition kept at the
monastery of Three Towers and Rose Trees. {The scrolls are written
on grey silk with dark red ink and enchanted for preservation}.
'These are the collected writings of the honourable and well
spoken mandarin Ih Talwor, called Red Tiger (Tiger for his martial
prowess and personal valour, Red for his uncommon colour of hair).
Red Tiger was renowned for his knowledge of civil law and the
art of waterworks. He was also an authority on classical poetry
and an excellent martial artist, bing a master of both the
long sword and unarmed combat. On his 100th birthday he retired
from active service as a mandarin and entered our humble
monastery to live out his remaining days as a monk and write
down his learning. Thirteen weeks before his 109th birthday he
met with the Silent Swordsman and left us to dwell in the
innermost halls of the Palace of Waiting. {The god of Death is
not worshipped as such in Kralorela, but seen as a Grim Reaper,
which is honoured but has no cult. He may or may not be the
same as Humakt.}
... {Many wise things on civil litigation and irrigation of
rice paddies, essays on classical Kralorelan poetry etc.}
...so I was convinced that I could in this fashion reach the
noble Imin Long, the August Dragon, who roams ways which are
unknowable by man, but sometimes gives councel and judgement.
I fasted and meditated for three days before girding my iron
sword and donning my travelling shoes. I received two Poems of
Power from the Exarch to help me gain entrance to the Place
of Possibilities and to endure the presence of the Dragon.
{The Poems of Power are something like one-time use divine
spells, but possibly of draconic nature. The Place of
Possibilities is the hero plane.}
On 1-day, Week of the Journey's End, Month of Being I stood
where the stone arch of the Bridge of One Way ends. There I
meditated for an hour and then I started walking along the arch
the bridge would make while reading the first Poem of Power.
As I walked I could see that I was walking on the single cable
which spans a great stretch, but it felt like a cobbled street.
When I reached the far end I was no longer on the bridge, but
standing on a mouintain path. The path winds in a spiral up to
a high pinnacle.
On the way up I had to fight three different monsters. I defeated
all, but was wounded in the arm. When I came closer to the top I
sensed the presence of the Dragon. When I cleared the final slope
and reached the flat top of the peak I read the second Poem of
Power to endure the dragon's presence. I stepped into the light
of his grandeur and bowed as before the Emperor. He greeted me
and asked my business. I said:
"To ask for wisdom and judgement as only dragonkind can give"
He answered:
"It will be yours. You will receive five answers and your
judgement"
I asked:
"What is life?"
He answered
"Life is the illusion that anything has a beginning"
I asked:
"What is death?"
He answered:
"Death is the illulsion that anything can cease to be."
I asked:
"What is chaos?"
He answered:
"Chaos is the illusion that entropy gives freedom."
I asked:
"What is order?"
He answered:
"Order is the illusion that the absence of entropy gives
safety"
I asked:
"Is illumination then the solution?"
He answered:
"Illumination is the illusion that chaos and order exist, so
they can be reconciliated. Illumination is insignificant when
you have seen through the illusion and found the paradox of the
Void."
I said:
"I thank you for your answers and will now take my judgement"
He said:
"You are a good man who strives to serve your empire and learn the
wisdom of dragons. You will receive good health and sound thinking
so that you will never judge falsely."
...
If you people liked it I might return with more from the scrolls
of Red Tiger.
/Nils W
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From: gadbois@cs.utexas.edu (David Gadbois)
Subject: New Pelorian New Speak
Message-ID: <199406052001.PAA08067@peaches.cs.utexas.edu>
Date: 5 Jun 94 10:01:34 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4385
In X-RQ-ID: 4318, Nick Brooke links New Pelorian and the Newspeak from
Orwell's 1984. I think that makes excellent sense: the Lunar way has
always struck me as being derived from the Cold War western propaganda
view of the USSR and the PRC.
How shall the state be most vigorous? It shall be most vigorous
when it is without conflict. How shall it be without conflict?
When it is without disagreement. How shall disagreement be
banished? By banishing the four causes of disagreement: lies,
foolish talk, boastful talk, and talk which serves only to incite
quarrells. How shall the four causes be banished? By speaking
only Correct Thought. Then shall the state be without
disagreement. Being without disagreement is shall be without
conflict. Being without conflict it shall be vigorous, strong, and
secure.
The above quote is from "The Citadel of the Autarch" by Gene Wolf
(Pocket Books, 1982, 0-671-49666-2.) There is a marvelous section of
the book where the protagonist encounters an Ascian soldier named
Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. The Ascians are an extreme example
of the Red Menace. They speak nothing but stock phrases drawn from
something like Mao's little book. Everyday speech for them consists
of combinding the phrases in stylized ways. Later on in Wolfe's book,
Loyal to the Group of Seventeen tells a story, and one of the other
characters provides a running translation:
... the Ascian began to speak: "In times past, loyalty to the
cause of the populace was to be found everywhere. The will of the
Group of Seventeen was the will of everyone."
Foila interpreted: _Once upon a time ..._
"Let no one be idle. If one is idle, let him band together with
others who are idle too, and let them look for idle land. Let
everyone they meet direct them. It is better to walk a thousand
leagues than to sit in the House of Starvation."
_There was a remote farm worked in partnership be people who were
not related._
"One is strong, another beautiful, a third a cunning artifier.
Which is best? He who serves the populace."
_On this farm lived a good man._
"Let the work be divided by a wise divider of work. Let the food
be divided by a just divider of food. Let the pigs grow fat. Let
rats starve."
_The others cheated him of his share._
And so on for several pages. I think watered down version sort of
thing could serve as a nice model for New Pelorian pragmatics.
On the mythological level, I think that the Lunars must have partially
botched the questing that set up whatever god of communication
presides over New Pelorian. They could have gotten some mechanistic
Mostali Maker figure as the basis, and the transformation resulted in
a god that lacked a good coverage of linguistic subtleties.
For example, New Pelorian should break all the linguistic rules we
know of. Have the language be highly inflectional (fewer words that
way) and make inflectional morphology be context-sensitive. To effect
this, have all the inflections be pairs of prefixes and suffixes that
are combined cross-serially. For example:
be- * -tan = sister of
na- * -stal = female
tapa- * -tar = Loyal to the Empire
lun = The Red Goddes
So: Tapanabeluntarstaltan is the New Pelorian name for the Great
Sister.
--David Gadbois