Bell Digest v940607p3

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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Tue, 07 Jun 1994, part 3
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From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Re: David's Ralios. And a question.
Message-ID: <9406061651.AA09219@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 6 Jun 94 20:01:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4397

>As I see it, Golden Bow=Jardan, the Grazer Warrior age group god, who's
>also Yu-kargzant's son. I wouldn't expect this among the Galanini.
>Something similar, maybe.

Umm, I'm not up on all these weird solar deity names (haven't had time to
look into GRoY yet), so I'm not entirely sure what you mean. What I was
aiming at was the idea that since the western cavalrymen and knights moved
in, the Galanini would have to think of something besides just having
horses to keep their edge. Horse archery seems to fit the bill nicely. The
exact mechanics we can leave for later.

>But
>you won't be seeing David/Jonas wars on this, I think either approach is
>valid.

Yeah. Just for the record: even though David has ripped off an amazing
amount of stuff from us :-), we've gotten a few ideas from him as well.
Chariots, for one.

>>We've been thinking that _all_ Ralian horses are ponies. Well, relatively
>>small and sturdy horses, at any rate. Native ones at least - the Safelster
>>states will of course have imported breeding stock from the West.
>
>I agree. They're all like Celtic Ponies in Pendragon terms. The Galanini
>are better breeders, and do have a horse large enough to be considered a
>Charger, though this is exceptional. Safelstran states have larger horses
>which are equivalent to Pendragon Chargers, and imported Destriers are not
>unheard of. But they don't do well in the hills of the East Wilds.

This is good. I like the idea that the Galanini have better (and bigger)
horses - perhaps they've cross-bred the native strain with horses they've
stolen (I mean _liberated_) from Safelster? The poster I was replying to (I
think it was Joerg?) saw the difference as mustangs among the Galanini,
icelandic ponies among the orlanthi: actually this isn't a bad idea either.
The way I see it at the moment (liable to change in X seconds), the
orlanthi use a smaller version of the Swedish draft horse, while the
Galanini have something similar to the proposed mustangs. This was probably
the _same_ horse to begin with, it's just that the orlanthi have bred for
strength, the Galanini for speed.

>But if Humakt was unknown, why would everyone know that Arkat betrayed
>them? (The popularity of the cult may have plummeted after Arkat became a
>troll and people decided Humakti weren't quite as honorable as their
>reputation.)

No, Humakt is (was) disliked _because_Arkat_was_a_Humakti_. The fact that
he betrayed the cult naturally makes it look silly to boot. In our current
draft, we just have two Humakt temples, one in Kilwin and one in Dorflik (a
city in Safelster that we made up from whole cloth). There is one clan with
a lot of Storm Bull worshippers in northeastern Delela (they're attracted
by the rumours of Chaos in Karia).


A completely unrelated question:
Does anyone on this list know if the Tekumel mailing list is still active,
and if so at what address? The one I tried was a year or so old, and it
just bounced my query.


(      Jonas Schiott                                   )
(      Institutionen for Ide- och lardomshistoria      )
(      Goteborgs Universitet                           )


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From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu
Subject: Re: NewSpeak, Trickster
Message-ID: <9406061928.AA28004@venus.phyast.pitt.edu.phyast.pitt.edu>
Date: 6 Jun 94 19:28:14 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4398

  Paul Reilly here, commenting on manipulating thoughts with the structure
of the language.

  
>The Russian language once
>had the same word for "Red" and "Beautiful" (hence Red Square); something
>similar would be really appropriate for the Lunar's tongue... maybe on an
>obvious moral level, like Red equals Good, or maybe something more subtle...?

  Yes.  Of course our own society would never stoop to such blackhearted
manipulation of people through language.  It's might white of us to even speak
with people from other cultures, much less approve of them.  There's something
sinister, almost unmanly, about a society that uses the fabric of laguage
to propagate cultural or religious prejudices.  People who would stoop to
such a thing have no Christian charity in their hearts.    Etc. ad nauseam...

  It's interesting to note that this goes on at a more subtle level of 
omission.  For example, Americans are constantly bombarded with 'facts' from
their news sources like '69% of people have sex before age 16" or "98% of
people live in housholds with a television set" - `people` here meaning 
USA residents.  Evil.

  -------------
Alex Ferguson writes, quoting John Hughes quoting Chaosium:
>> "THE FIREBRINGER: many people agree that Trickster, in one form or another, 
>> stole fire from the darkness. Among the Pentans he was Raven, in Pamaltela he
>> was Hare, and for the Theyalans he was a Lightbringer. "

>While contrariwise, the Dara Happans certainly don't.

  I think that the DH might agree that Rakenveg, the carrot-headed Trickster,
snuck in and stole Fire during the Darkness - FROM THEM.

  Note that this means that there is a flaming Carrot-headed god on Glorantha
who is a Trickster.  DOes anyone else read Dark Horse comics?  Rakenveg would
in this scenario offer spells like :
DISTRACTION
  The caster pulls forth and shows some unusual but essentially ordinary
object, calling attention to it: "Look! A bee head!"  If the caster overcomes
the POW of anyone within range of his voice and sight of the object,
they must pay attention to it for one round, as per Xiola Umbar's Attract
Attention...

------------

  Eurmal is definitely a Murderer.  No question.  Who unleashed Death?





  It looks like Runegate is to small for my story.  I am thinking of changing
it to Alda-Chur or Bagnot.  Would anyone with a 'proprietary' interest
in either of those cities contact me (paul@minerva.phyast.pitt.edu).
I am sure that someone ahs been backgrounding Alda-Chur.

  -Paul

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From: CryptoMatt@aol.com
Subject: Re: New Pelorian New Speak
Message-ID: <9406062007.tn896552@aol.com>
Date: 7 Jun 94 00:07:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4399

David Gadbois says in X-RQ-ID: 4385...
>For example, New Pelorian should break all the linguistic rules we
>know of.  Have the language be highly inflectional (fewer words that
>way) and make inflectional morphology be context-sensitive.  To effect
>this, have all the inflections be pairs of prefixes and suffixes that
>are combined cross-serially.  For example:

>   be- * -tan   = sister of
>  na- * -stal  = female
>   tapa- * -tar = Loyal to the Empire
>   lun          = The Red Goddes
   
>So: Tapanabeluntarstaltan is the New Pelorian name for the Great
>Sister.

Well... um... I think that if the Lunars tried to make this New Pelorian
the required language of the state, they'd have a mass uprising. Not only
would the subjugated people rise up in righteous anger against their
linguistically twisted conquerors, but the Lunars wouldn't be able to

respond because they would be so busy trying to inform their central
authorities of the rebellion!
The simple message, "Send reinforcements, the hill barbarians have
revolted!", would take several pages of text to convey. 
On the other hand, New Pelorian New Speak does add certain twists to the
nightmare of Lunar bureaucracy. You've got to have lots of people to push
that much paper. ;-)

-Matt Thale


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From: DevinC@aol.com
Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 06 Jun 1994, part 1
Message-ID: <9406062042.tn898131@aol.com>
Date: 7 Jun 94 00:42:26 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4400

Devin Cutler here:

Alex writes (forcing me to keep this debate public):

"Unfortunately for this argument, a "geas" doesn't mean a compulsion (outside
of D&D), and certainly not a non-magical one.  Then again, I'm not sure
what the justification for the use of the term in Glorantha and Shadowrun
to mean "magical restriction" is, either, since the word simply means
"enchantment", according to my Gaelic dictionary."

Semantics, shemantics! I really don't care much about the possible misuse of
s single word when everyone knows what I meant...so I'll just admit complete
D&Dism and go home on this one...OK?

"
Much more helpful.  I don't see the cynical, syncretic worship of the
Roman empire of that period as being much different from that of the
Lunar empire we know and loathe.  Or the Orlanthi from the pagan tribes
of northwest europe.  (In the general manner of their worship, not the
cultly or theological particulars.)"

Maybe this simply gets down to some a priori beliefs about divinity and
people's potential reactions to divinity. I am working from two premises:

1) The gods on Glorantha are more active and manifest more often, more
overtly (i.e. provably), and more repeatedly than any Earthly deities. When I
say this last sentence, I do not mean "than any Earthly deities ever did in
Terran mythology", I am saying "than any Earthly deities ever REALLY did in
any sort of verifiable sense". Now, I suppose we are heading into dangerous
territory (i.e. do Terran gods (or God) really exist), and this is a subject
that I would like to avoid. 

2) That assuming a person knows for a fact that a god exists and has direct
effect on their lives/souls, that they would worship and revere such a god to
a great extent.

Now, certainly, supply and demand have a sort of effect in Glorantha. The
supply of deities to worship in Glorantha is much greater than most of earths
(monotheistic) religions. 

Therefore, I suppose Gloranthan worshippers can demand more of their gods
than earthly worshippers can of their one Supreme Being, because if a
Gloranthan doesn't like one god, he/she can simply worship another. In a
Judeo/Christian mythos, you have no choice, it is worship THE GOD or burn in
Hell.

Also, while in Glorantha the relationship between god and worshipper is a
two-way street (i.e. the god gains something from the worshippers and vice
versa), Terran monotheistic religions are more of a one-way street. Id est,
worship of God is less a trade (of POW for benefits) and more of a parental
type situation (i.e. love is a major factor).

The above two items might mitigate to some extent the devoutness of
Gloranthans to their deities, but I still feel that this is far outweighed by
the fact that:

1) Every Gloranthan knows that there is an afterlife. They know it for
certain. How? They can regularly talk to their ancestors, they SEE spirits,
etc. While many on Earth claim to believe in an afterlife, few can really
claim to believe it with the kind of non-faith intellectual proof that
Gloranthans have.

Because there is an afterlife for certain, a lot of the uncertainty and doubt
surrounding death is non-existent in Glorantha. IMO, when everyone KNOWS that
heaven awaits them if they are devout, they are going to be much more eager
to secure a place in that heaven. On Earth, many of us I propose are not as
devout (as one of many reasons) because we are not sure what awaits us after
death (if anything) so we tend to focus more on the here and now (i.e. we are
more materialistc).

2) Once again, the same holds true for powers/spells/miracles. Yes, people in
pre-Renaissance Earth sometimes believed they saw miracles. But I submit that
such sightings of miracles was not universal (i.e. everyone didn't see
miracles and evidence of the divine power on a daily basis). In Glorantha it
is. 

I don't care how gullible and faith-full someone might be, hearing about a
miracle second hand is not as effective as witnessing it firsthand or, better
yet, performing it oneself.

"They believed they did, in many cases."

Not the entire population. I can't believe that more than 5% of the
population ever believed that they saw a true and profound miracle.

"What constitutes a miracle is a
matter of interpretation."

Of course it is, but when miracles are universally accepted as reality, their
existence becomes more concrete and the divinity that performed the miracles
becomes more real.

" I don't think exact frequency is a particularly
hot issue.  Mass guided teleportations get pretty old when you've seen a few,
anyway."

True, but no matter how commonplace Guided Teleports get, everyone knows they
come from Mastakos. No one on Glorantha believes the power comes from within.

"Universality of magic is no argument for a level of faith, or uniformity
of belief, in Glorantha unknown on earth."

Then maybe we should agree to disagree on this point. I have given my
argument for this above.

 "After all, Gloranthans know that
people worshipping Bad Gods, and even no god at all, get magic, too."

Why does the fact that Bad Gods give magic mitigate the devoutness of
Gloranthans?

Yes, Sorcerors get magic, but it is regarded as unholy and soul destroying.
In any case, just because magic exists in a non-Divine form doesn't suddenly
convince Gloranthans that their deities are impotent.

"Spirit
magic certainly isn't "evidence" of divinity of any sort, much less one
who believes and promulgates his own GoG writeup chapter and verse.  More
like a kind of cultic Predecessor Worship."

Yes, but spirit magic does prove that the spirit world exists, that an
afterlife exists, etc. Furthermore, Cult Spirits would tend to be a
manifestation fo a god's powers. But in any case, so what? Divine Magic in
and of itself is enough to prove the Gloranthan deities' manifestations.

 "Well then, that's no reliability at all, since the god could answer on
whatever basis he feels like at that non-moment, not necessarily the letter
of cult entrance requirements.  "Yeah, sure, let him in.  Looks okay from
here.  Gotta run, playing full contact golf with Heler in half a non-hour."
Few actually specify "non-chaotic" as such, anyway."

Of course the god can answer any way he wants. But I was speaking "reliable"
in the sense that reliable = what the god wants. 

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com


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From: 100270.337@CompuServe.COM (Nick Brooke)
Subject: Newspeak
Message-ID: <940607014902_100270.337_BHL31-1@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 7 Jun 94 01:49:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4401

Hi, all!

David Gadbois quoted the start of one of my favourite folk tales - Loyal to 
the Group of Seventeen's story from "Citadel of the Autarch". I *love* that 
series, and the tale is one of the highlights...

Graeme asked:

> While I like this idea, are the Lunars that sophisticated? Even with the
> magic,they are Bronze age culture. And if they tried it, I doubt they
> would have been totally successful, as regional dialects and jargon
> appeared.

Reread the appendix to 1984. The same applied to Ingsoc Newspeak.

Lunar Newspeak is, of course, a long-term project. So is *everything* to do 
with the Lunar Way. Thinking in mortal lifespans is a waste of Time. For it 
to ultimately triumph, the Lunar Way will require many cycles of growth and 
death and rebirth. The Lunar Empire is merely the first of these; its final 
"destruction" by Argrath (inter alia) is the prelude to rebirth in a wholly 
different form. This has *always* been Lunar doctrine. So, "Newspeak" these 
days may be flawed and incomplete, but after a hundred generations or more 
it will have accomplished its aim.

Of course, the Lunar state language is far less rigid/barren than those of 
Winston Smith or L2G17. In some ways, it is a reaction against the barren, 
sterile priestly tongue of old Dara Happa. Lunar calligraphy is beautiful: 
think of Arabic manuscripts; all those cursive flourishes, compared to the 
rigidity of a primitive (all-capital) alphabet...

Nils gave us a fragment of Red Tiger's illuminated Kralori mysticism: MORE 
PLEASE! I loved it!

Gary Newton expostulated:

> "Hey! You can't do that! Everyone knows time travel in Glorantha is
> impossible! It breaks the Compromise!"

Yeah. But does it happen despite that?...

While I dislike bringing what I feel are non-Gloranthan concepts (like time 
travel, parallel dimensions, genetics, etc.) into my world-view, if there's 
a good story to be told which uses them, I'd say "Go ahead: tell it!" We've 
probably "travelled through time" on HeroQuests before now without noticing 
it, and I'm sure other instances of the Great Compromise "breaking" spring 
to mind (both Waha and Cacodemon seem to have a loose grasp of its terms).

Unlike some RQ-gurus, I do not feel the need to have a single system that 
explains everything (whether it be a Unified Gloranthan Theory, a Monomyth, 
a God Learner Secret, or whatever). I prefer taking the world as it comes. 
Many reputable sources have claimed Gloranthan time travel to be more-or- 
less possible, while I've experienced it (or something like) myself. So I 
tend not to be dogmatic on the subject.

Alex: Carolyn Cherryh's haggis'n'kilts fantasy novel "Faerie in Shadow" 
translated "Geas" as "Necessity", which seemed to work well enough. A fun 
book, too, if you can stand cod Scots (better than the real thing...).

> Is there a shrine to Where Did You Get that Sword, Eurmal?  Put it Back
> at Once! anywhere in the Barbarian Belt?

If there wasn't before, there are probably a dozen now, this idea being so 
fine and all.

B Hillesland:

> More information in Nietzsche's Thus Spoke Zarathustra (I'm just kidding
> of course...)

OTOH, why kid? Belief in Man (or Superman) as the Master Race or Apex of 
Creation seems straightforward enough for the formerly "humanist" West; I 
was pleased to see Mike Dawson following the same chain of thought wrt 
Arlaten the Magus in "Strangers in Prax".

====
Nick
====

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X-RQ-ID: Extro

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