From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 10 Jun 1994, part 2 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Moonbroth comments Message-ID:Date: 9 Jun 94 14:10:05 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4472 Malcolm in X-RQ-ID: 4452 Great stuff on Moonbroth. Minor suggestions, as usual: The geysers of Moonbroth: In Glorantha the upwelling of water is a phenomenon regulated by the Blue Moon. This stellar body has a 1d6 period of climbing and falling, which makes for an avareage of 2 tides per Red Moon week. In Tales 10 the expansion of the Waertagi cameo from Elder Secrets by Ian Gorlick suggested an Annilla connection, which I find highly reasonable. So for the Geyser activities, I'd link these to the hour or two when Annilla falls down from Pole Star's gate (also used by e.g. Orlanth's Ring) and comes closest to the Inner World. I know this contradicts Cults of Prax, but it makes more sense to me. I don't think the Lunar Empire has any water connections other than through Annilla or inherited from the Dara Happans. > DESCRIPTION > The oasis of Moonbroth lies near the edge of the region of Prax known > as The Good Place. The oasis is a relatively large fertile area, which > covers approximately 2 square kilometers. The Nomad Gods boardgame map has an area of twelve hexes around Moonbroth oasis as fertile ground (i.e. non-chapparal) all year round. This might be only fairly lush compared to Sartar, but still is different from the rest of Prax, apart from Sacred Ground. BTW: In NG, at Moonbroth one could specifically summon Gagarth (the Wild Hunter) by sacrificing a herd counter. I don't know what magical or mythological connection there is, but it's another obscure fact about this oasis. > RELIGION > Most of the Oasis Folk of Moonbroth worship the spirit cult of the > underground water source that gives life to the oasis. They call the > spirit of the hidden water source SECRET MOTHER. She gives her > worshippers the spirit spell CALL MOTHER, which will send drinking water > for one person up to the surface within 50k of Moonbroth. Would this be an obscure Annilla subcult? 50 km would extend well into the dead place, which I'd except from this rule. BTW, what about trolls and Moonbroth? > ADVENTURE HOOK > On the week of the high holy day of the Seven Mothers a great market > and festival is being held at the oasis. People are coming from all > over to join in the festivities and honor the Seven Mothers. The PCs > could be recruited by some Orlanthi big wigs (i.e. Garrath, or Krogar) > and asked to try and sabotage the Holy day by somehow plugging up one > or more of the geysers. (At least that's what my PCs are going to be > doing in Moonbroth!) They also might summon Gagarth and the Wild Hunt. Now _that_ would upset any Lunar ceremony... -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Snippets without quotes Message-ID: Date: 9 Jun 94 14:10:29 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4473 Alex provided a document which well is worth the 20 Lunars the narrator paid. Lovely twist about "sunk Loskalm"! Where did the Lunars obtain their copy of Zzabur's Blue Book? Peter Michaels about Gargoyles: Nice connection, some very interesting ideas. Gonn Orta - Genert: I think this is overemphasizing Gonn Orta. Why should (a fragment of) Genert have uprooted the Nidan Dwarf kingdom (as described in "Making Jolanti")? Although I think it likely that Gonn Orta did heroquest along the paths of Genert. He is one of the most magically potent individuals around the Hidden Greens, which might be a place for the Desert Trackers to visit and deposit their hyena hides. Still, I prefer the Annilla connection for the true (cradle) giants of the Rockwoods. Nils Weinander brings back the Red Tiger, and puts forth a number of parallels between draconic thinking and illumination (from a Kralori point of view) I second. Although illumination from the Lunar perspective does encompass Primal Chaos (they as verbose as Paul Honigmann suggested, but hardly a pure chaotic). Nils, why did you let the uppity storm boy kill Yang Long, and not Yelm, a well known figure in Kralori myth? And what did happen to Kralorela after Yelm had been slain? Metsyla was a deity of light as well, not unlike Antirius a portion of Yelm keeping watch over part of his realm, and like Antirius formed prior to Yelm's death. RQ Companion states (top of p.9) that "soon dragons guarded the Light of the East" during Daruda's reign, during the Storm Ages. But this source also states that Daruda faded to death when he witnessed Yelm's death. Sam's campaign: I'd say, post it. If you don't, send me a copy, please. Paul about Lunar printing: I'd think that the Lunar officials are big at cutting stamps out of linoleum, so why not have larger stamps for producing the forms? viewed from the side, they'd be similar to a Stasis Rune for full forms. There might also be calligraphically satisfying stamps for certain recursing phrases, although the usual "All praise the Red Moon" might be an exercise in calligraphy considered a prayer for all Lunar scribes which must be executed in hand-writing. (On the other hand, Tibetans use prayer mills, so the Lunars might have introduced the "All praise..." stamp in lieu of a rosary.) Dave Cake on Loskalmi Hrestoli: I think the Squire and Acolythist careers have certain "Farmer" skills which count towards having mastered farming, such as Horse Care, Crafts, etc. I wonder how the urban Farmer class is defined? More Loskalm: Alex is quoted that Loskalm annexed Junora after the Ban was lifted. The Loskalmi put it like this: The Loskalmi province Junora was separated from the mainland during the Ban, and was reunited with the motherland. (But the same was said about the Sudeten-areas in 1938.) -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Artmali etc. Message-ID: Date: 9 Jun 94 14:12:29 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4474 Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 4447 > Joerg asks many things about the original Jrusteli: >> All the transport [to move to Jrustela] had been provided by the >> Waertagi. What was their motivation to aid the enemy of their >> old-time allies, the Brithini? > The Jrusteli were not at that time enemies of the Brithini. > Even at the peak of their power they weren't so much foes of the > Brithini as they were of the Waertagi. But they weren't enemies of > the Waertagi either, when they first immigrated to Jrustela. Glorantha Book tells us: "The Seshnegi Empire once reached all the way to Safelster, included the Fronelan coastline, and planted colonies in Jrustela. That phase of the empire ended when it tried to attack Brithos, and was crushed." I recall that a Second Age Seshnegi King cum Emperor of the Middle Seas repeated this assault, and was as severely beaten. Several questions come to my mind. First, CoT tells us that the Seshnegi knights and the (probably Arolanit) wizards were att odds with each other until Arkat came and somewhat reconciled both factions. The Waertagi were allied with both parties of old, in fact they provided the physical link between the continental colonies and the motherland. Did they allow the sea-descended humans of the West (descendants of Malkion are descendants of Warera Triolina after all, and the Ygglinga also claim a naiad as ancestress) a certain amount of seagoing vessels? Did the Waertagi transport the Seshnegi invasion force to Brithos? If so, was their fleet doing so sunk? If they didn't, how did the Seshnegi attack Brithos? Did they use vessels of their own design? What forces did the Brithini employ to sink these? Did the Waertagi allow this military expedition? Why? > Also, you must remember that the Waertagi's source of income > was entirely based on transporting other peoples' goods and persons > across the oceans. I'm sure they were paid for their trouble. I didn't doubt this for a minute. Yet I had the impression that until the closing they were staunch allies of Brithos. Seshnela twice had tried to conquer Brithos. Why should they further the concurrence of their major ally? >> Did they (too) remember Malkion's teachings of Solace Zzabur and his >> brothers (at least Talar and Horal) had forbidden to the Brithini? > Who can say? Who knows what secrets the Waertagi knew? Someone ought to. I can imagine it would be fun to play 3rd Age Waertagi, with all the world's coasts open to them. >> (While I'm at it, what made them spread the (brown) Vadeli from >> their island remnants of former greatness across the world's ports?) > The Waertagi never spread the Vadeli anywhere. The Vadeli are > now in Pamaltela as a result of a Third Age phenomenon-- the end of > the Closing, when the Vadeli pulled their big scam on the coasts. But they are also in any major Genertelan port between Northpoint and Dombain, possibly even in Lur Nop. Did they spread there during the age of the Empire of Land and Sea? >> (And do you know anything about the Awesome Bridge shown in that >> map?) > Yes. Thanks for _this_ enlightenment. To continue the game: Are you willing to share this knowledge with us? >> How big was this catastrophe (the end of the Artmali Empire)? What >> exactly did it consist of? > When Chaos came into the universe, its initial point of entry > was at the north edge, above the glacier. They tipped up the sky dome > to crawl under it, and the sun fell from the sky, plunging right into > the huge inland bay that the Artmali Empire was based around, and > burning up everything there, leaving behind the Nargan Desert. Which sun fell? Yelm was dead and gone to Hell, Antirius shone above Dara Happa, the Sun Dragon over Kralorela (?), Elmal over Kerofinela, Somash over Teshnos, Kargzant over the Pentan reaches, Yelmalio within the elf forests, Yamsur within Genert's Garden. > Even the water caught on fire in that disaster. Tanian's birth? The Artmali are grandchildren of Lorion... > Even today, south of the > Nargan you can find the Boiling Swamps, and further of that, beyond > Pamaltela's southern shores, is the Sea of Fire, which is still > burning after all these years. Only a few survivors of the Artmali > Empire managed to escape, which is why today's blue folk live in such > widely-separated areas. What about Rahmuktara south of the Sea of Worms? A survivor? > Note that in Agimori legend, the Lesser Darkness and the > Great Darkness are not distinguished between. The sun's fall and the > entry of chaos are conterminous. No doubt the God Learners had fits > with this, because it's pretty obvious that Genertelan legendry > distinguishes between the two events (except maybe for Kralorela). As I understood it, the Lesser Darkness had only one thing as effect on Pamaltela: the coming of the trolls. There still must have been a sun (waiting to fall into the Nargan Bay). Introduction to Glorantha book has an obscure mention of the Artmali Empire in the Second Age (p.10): "In Pamaltela the early Artmali Empire was crushed, and its territories incorporated into the sea-borne Jrusteli Empire." > The Artmali Empire was pretty much out of it by the time > Vovisibor came along. Pamalt and the Agimori, previously minor > peoples of Pamaltela, had to muster themselves against this mightiest > of all threats. (I.e., Vovisibor is not a Veldang legend.) The Bolongo legend I mentioned (Bolongo replacing the Emperor) clearly is a Storm Age legend, although not necessarily Lesser Darkness. Moorgarki certainly is a Lesser Darkness legend, because only the slaying of Yelm made the trolls leave Wonderhome. > (I said Orlanth doesn't actually need worship.) >> Then how and why does the Red Goddess' progress pull Orlanth from >> power? > Her threat is much more fearsome than a mere attrition of > worshipers. The Red Goddess's ultimate goal, from Orlanth's point of > view, is to actually remove Storm as a major Rune (it might be able > to remain behind as a minor sub-Rune, like Heat or Shadow). Such > tinkering with the universe's building blocks is a Major Change of > reality. No wonder Orlanth musters all his forces against her. Then why does the empire ignore Ralios? Does the Emperor know about and rely on the reappearances of Arkat to overthrow Orlanth (Worlath, whatever) there? Being illuminated, the reappearanes of Arkat should have some impact on the Empire as well, either an opportunity to spread the Lunar way in Arkati dress, or a possible threat of another crusade from Ralios through Dragon Pass into Peloria. (Arkat's Saga does mention help from Ralios, in the person of Kocholang's son.) > A few Runes were left kind of on their own, without any > obvious Origin. We didn't want to let any one god have more than one > Rune as Origin (except Arachne Solara), so Change, Illusion, and > Disorder couldn't all be Eurmal. We gave Illusion to Eurmal, and > "created" Bolongo to be Disorder, then fit him into certain myths. I > wrote up some tales of Bolongo, and even a debased cult "structure". > Unfortunately, it's my opinion that when we started actually working > on Bolongo, he demonstrated that he's probably actually the Illusion > Origin, while Eurmal's spells and activities qualify him for > Disorder. So there's a bit of a mix-up here. I suppose it's only > natural with Trickster-type entities involved. Why not leave Illusion with Dormal, as the puppeteer connection mentioned in RQ2 suggested, and leave Eurmal as the source of Disorder, only using illusion? -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172) Subject: stasis Message-ID: <01HDCDTC2I46Q82S2D@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU> Date: 9 Jun 94 10:36:00 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4476 Hi all-- In my post yesterday, I forgot to mention that the Conquering Daughter (in both prior and revised versions) holds the stasis rune (as well as moon and harmony). She is seen as a binder of water; builder of bridges, roads, walls (and other stasis-type stuff); stabilizer of the provinces; and protector/shield of the empire. --Harald --------------------- From: pound@is.rice.edu (Christopher Pound) Subject: Skyrealms of Jorune Message-ID: <9406092022.AA23395@is.rice.edu> Date: 9 Jun 94 10:22:33 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4477 Sandy says: > Faulkner asks: > >On a related question, does anyone out there know of any other > >published gaming worlds as rich as Glorantha and Tekumel? > There's one other, whose name I alas don't have on hand. But > it includes weird alien beings and names with exceedingly good > artwork, and a workable magic system. Skyrealms of Jorune is published by Chessex these days. The online contact is RadioJoe5@aol.com, who definitely welcomes inquiries about the game. --------------------- From: DevinC@aol.com Subject: Re: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 09 Jun 1994, part 2 Message-ID: <9406092041.tn1026422@aol.com> Date: 10 Jun 94 00:41:16 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4480 Devin Cutler here: Alex writes: "Oooo, imagine, the deadly sin of Not Giving Someone the Last Word." It's the eighth deadly sin -) "For my money, one parting of the Red Sea is worth quite a few "wasn't that a lucky escape from apparently certain death"s." My whole point is that those who believed the Red Sea parted still didn't witness it first hand. Therefore, their belief was less perfect, less complete than a Gloranthan's. " I find it more credible to believe that there's a range of faith on both Glorantha and historical earth, which at the very least overlaps substantially between the two. Earth has thrown up quite enough religious maniacs that to suppose Glorantha has many, many times more of them is a rather off-putting idea." And while I, too, believe there is some overlap, I feel that the overlap is much less than you do. Also, I don't see the fact that Glorantha is filled with "religious fanatics" as a bad thing. In fact, it lends a great deal of fanatic tension to the whole. And it gets away from the D&Dism of "Yeah, I'm a cleric of XXXXX. Worship? What do you mean worship?" "Is this particularly different from the situation of the ancient Hellenes, or the pre-Christian Celts?" No, but I still submit that the ancient Hellenes never witnessed en masse (or even individually) gods wielding their power in the way Gloranthans do. "Not unlike the Malkioni, no?" The Malkioni are an ENTIRELY different case, and I have never had a problem with them as they are being portrayed. And yes, I might find the average Rokari peasant less devout than an Orlanthi peasant...and more cynical too. "I don't believe Gloranthan afterlives are "provable" in any meaningful sense. I fact, I'm inclined to believe many of the claimed afterlives in cult writeups are downright false. At any rate, determining whether any particular person has gone to any given afterlife, and whether they're having a great time there, is at the very least exceedingly difficult. (Beyond afterlife claims like "you become a spirit", which is somewhat provable, but not relevant to most of the afterlives marketed by the various cults.)" This when a spirit can be contacted and spoken to with the right magics? This when Ancestor worshippers commune with and interact with the dead all of the time? This when the Stormbulls can see the Eternal Battle with their own eyes. This when Humakti, Zorak Zorani, et al can bind the dead into ghosts? "How many people believe they've seen a Real Miracle at Lourdes (sp?) say? Now, perhaps you think their standards of proof are shoddy, or that they're plain ol' gullible, but it seems improbable to me that they display whole order of magnitudes less faith than the "Glorantha's different" school of thought appears to maintain." Nevertheless, I submit that they do display whole magnitudes lower, since they do not witness healings on the order of, say, that healing spring written up in an early TOTRM (I think it was issue 3 or 4). Wounds do not close up at Lourdes in a matter of seconds as you watch. Diseases and Poison do not disappear inside of minutes. The dead do not come back to life. In fact, I would doubt that anyone at Lourdes has actually witnessed a healing that has occured within, say, an hour. Terran miracles are so much less provable and more subtle. A person bathes at Lourdes and, say, 3 weeks later is cured. Well, who's to say the miracle occured at Lourdes? It could have occured 2 weeks later by eating a bowl of cereal. "Because it means you don't have to be Good to get magic. You don't have to believe any particular thing to get magic, or indeed anything at all. Indeed, you can be be fairly lax and cynical and get at least some magic from your god. Magic is fairly "routine" stuff in Glorantha, compared to earth, so the mere fact that gods can evidence and grant it isn't likely to make them quite the objects of universal and unquestioned awe you seem to envisage, and as they might if they manifested in the middle of Piccadily Circus tomorrow, and started lambasting the hapless residents with unaccoustomedly irreproducable, but painful, results." First of all, someone's bad is another person's good. If I worship Ragnalar, I am good if a rape people. So there is really no such thing as a Bad God. In any case, I do not envision gods giving divine magic to anyone who pays the price. I play that they only grant their magic to those worthy of such. Yes, the Gloranthans have a wider variety of gods, but once they choose, they must be devout to that god, or switch and become devout to another. One can say that the widespread use of magic, instead of causing people to become blaise about worship, causes them to be devout, since in a world where everyone else has magic, someone not attached to a god will have a rough time of things. Therefore, I don't picture Atheists and Agnostics doing too well in Glorantha's Theistic areas. "Rather I argue, just because you don't think religious people should have believed in their gods, due to their inablility to produce magic on a regular basis, they weren't convinced that their deities were impotent." But they WERE less convinced in their deity's potency, simply because that potency was not hitting them in the face constantly. "It does? Most afterlives aren't even (claimed to be) _in_ the spirit world" This is news to me. I preasumed that the Cat Spirits and the Plant spirits, and the other Spirits mentioned in a Different Worlds article implied that most spirits were the deceased cult members serving their god by becoming allied. "Its very reliability could lead one to the alternative conclusion that it was just some form of sorcerous manipulation of the requisite elements, backed up with some POW sacrifice, rather than the conscious intervention of some entity. I'm half-tempted to bring up Illuminates." The simple fact that any schmo off of the street cannot walk up to an altar to Babeester Gor and get Axe Trance is a sign that a deity is involved. Also, the fact that apostates lose their Divine Spells is another. In any case, do you want to seriously argue that anything over 1% of the non-sorcerous Theistic ares of Glorantha believe that? Also, I mentioned on the RQ monthly conference on AOL that I had heard somewhere that Gbaji was believed to be the Tongue of Wakboth. Anyone else heard of this? Regards, Devin Cutler devinc@aol.com