From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
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Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Sat, 11 Jun 1994, part 1
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X-RQ-ID: Intro
This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's
world of Glorantha. It is sent out once per day in digest
format.
More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
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---------------------
From: sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com (Sandy Petersen)
Subject: various
Message-ID: <9406101719.AA01454@idcube.idsoftware.com>
Date: 10 Jun 94 05:20:01 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4492
Klaus O.K. says:
>The more I think about the Hrestoli caste system, the less sense it
>makes. It seems to me to be a 100% guaranteed insurance against
>excelence in any walk of life.
Apparently you've been convinced by the Rokari. ;) You're
parrotting _their_ line!
All your points about the Hrestoli are reasonable here,
except that you are forgetting that the Hrestoli believe that, in
order to be a "full man", you must master all of life. How can you do
this without being a farmer? Think of it as spending a year or two in
the Peace Corps before continuing on with college, or going through a
stint in the army. The Mormon Church, of which I am a member, sends
its young men and women on two-year missions when they're around 20
years old. While their skills at missionarying vary wildly, there's
no doubt in anyone's mind that the experience they gain on their
missions is of enormous use later in life.
Note also that the Hrestoli have to some degree recognized
the unworkability of their idealistic system (which, to work
perfectly, would seem to require lifespans far beyond the human
norm), and as a result have created the job-categories of Squires and
Acolythists, which are technically Farmer-caste, but no doubt have
shown talent in the military or magic field. I imagine most Squires
and Acolythists spend most of their time learning weaponry or magic,
with only a few weeks each year laboring on crafts and farming.
There is another point you're missing -- among the Rokari and
Brithini, Wizards aren't supposed to fight, Knights aren't supposed
to farm, etc. But among the Hrestoli I unequivocably state that the
Knights are allowed to farm, the Wizards to fight, etc. You still get
skilled warriors -- they're just called "Wizards". However, this does
not mean that there aren't Hrestoli heresies somewhere in Fronela
that follow the Hrestoli promotion scheme, but then forbid acting in
one's former caste.
Finally, I suggest that among most Loskalmi it is considered
okay to fail to rise to the next caste. Remember that most humans
will never rise above Farmer, or if they become a Knight, won't
actually ever practice weapons, but will remain a Farmer in
occupation.
I imagine that, shortly after the Dawn, the first Hrestoli
struggled to follow Hrestol's word exactly properly, but found it
impossible. Maybe someone is still doing it somewhere -- with only
true farmers, true knights, true wizards, etc. And every member of
society fit for the previous role, not the one they're actually
serving in. Incompetents doing the farming, farmers doing the
fighting, warriors doing the magic, etc.
Eric asks:
>Anyone out there know the life-cycle of Bison and rate of
>breeding/longevity? How many calves per year in a herd of 50 say,
>and is the a sex ratio bias in the offspring.
Bison rut in the spring, have one calf per female every two
years (I believe), and there is no sex bias in the offspring, at
least not a notable one. When the bison are rutting they form harems
and male territories and can't really migrate.
I don't know how long bison live. Probably similar to cattle.
Mr. S. W. Jones wonders:
>Firstly- the Closing of the Seas, mentioned just a couple of
>times in the Gloranthan myths; but it does say that no-one could
>sail out of sight of land, is there some other reason to stop people
>sailing? It just seems that coastal peoples would be able to trade
>just as effectively by sailing close to shore (relatively)- cutting
>off trade only with the southern continent, but still allowing
>Westerners to ply the shores of Kethaela.
You had to stop at night, too. In fact, if you got too far
offshore, you'd have trouble. But it's true that not all trade was
stopped. For that matter, seagoing traffic was still possible in a
number of inland bays and seas. For instance, the big circular bay in
Kethaela was open to travel. The problem was that it was hard to sail
east or west from the Holy Country -- east, you encounter endless
tracks of marshes and foot-long mosquitoes. West are the Wenelian
barbarians, the haunted Mournsea and Ramalia, etc. All things that
you really need to swing out to sea to avoid.
>The other dull question is about the Lunars, and it is a little
>pedantic, but why the hell to Lunar infantry use scimitars, as I
>imagine the Lunars to be similar to Imperial Rome, and that they use
>well trained mass infantry- then scimitars are just not suited-
>shortswords are though
The Lunar tactics in combat are NOT like Imperial Rome's,
though, and it's said so in a number of places -- their infantry is
not like Legionaries in organization, but rather they are hoplites,
armed with long spears, large shields, and a sidearm sword. If you
look up ancient Greece, you'll see that the Greeks carried quite long
swords by their side, sometimes curved like scimitars (or even
reverse scimitars).
That said, some Lunar units certainly carry shortswords but,
again, it is probably a sidearm to the spear they normally fight
with. Lunar units that fight with the sword probably use scimitars.
No one in Glorantha, as far as I know, has invented the Roman
Legion. It would probably kick butt among the undisciplined Orlanthi
and rigid Lunar phalanxes. On the other hand, it may not hold up to
well against the Pent or Prax nomads.
Joerg wonders:
>Does anybody know why raccoons featured so greatly in pre-God
>Learner mythology? They are one of the prime examples of bad God
>Learning.
Americans like raccoons. They're clever, tough fighters,
keen-looking, have cute mannerisms, and they hang around human
habitations. They're "fun" animals, like coatis, kit foxes, or
chipmunks. (Yes, we like hunting them for their fluffy pelts, too.)
They also figure big in Amerind Lore. Hence, when they're
killed by Eurmal or the bad God Learners, it has an emotional impact
which I suspect is bigger among Americans than it is among Europeans.
Jonas Schiott worries:
>some unpublished Chaosium stuff that was quoted at me a while back
>states that the majority of these 25000 are Damali. But in order for
>the Galanini to fulfil the role we have given them, I feel they
>should amount to at least 10-15000
As perpetrator of the population figures for Glorantha
(though I was advised against it), I hereby grant you full permission
to ignore each and every figure written down in those lists. Or, at
least, to feel free to adjust them by a factor of 2-5 in _either_
direction. I don't think they're inaccurate by a factor of 10
anywhere but a very few places, but aside from that they're the most
remote guidelines you can imagine.
>I don't think the Lunar Empire has any water connections other than
>through Annilla or inherited from the Dara Happans.
There's the Young Elemental connection. And Annilla's
connection is pretty strong, you gotta admit.
CLARIFICATION ON THE WAERTAGI MONOPOLY
Local vessels were able to sail along all shores. In effect,
the Waertagi acted like a slightly less powerful Closing of the Seas.
Non-Waertagi ships sailed in Kethaela's harbor, along all coasts, and
in the East Isles. On occasion, some power would mass ships and fight
the Waertagi, usually losing.
The First Age Seshnegi invasion of Brithos may have been in
defiance of the Waertagi, or the Waertagi, still friendly to both
sides, may have been neutral. Or the Seshnegi invasion may have been
crushed _because_ of the Waertagi's intervention.
>But they are also in any major Genertelan port between Northpoint
>and Dombain, possibly even in Lur Nop. Did they spread there during
>the age of the Empire of Land and Sea?
IMO they spread there today in the Third Age, since the
Closing.
I said
>> When Chaos came into the universe, its initial point of entry
>> was at the north edge, above the glacier. They tipped up the sky
>>dome to crawl under it, and the sun fell from the sky, plunging
>>right into the huge inland bay that the Artmali Empire was based
>>around, and burning up everything there, leaving behind the Nargan
>>Desert.
Joerg wonders:
>Which sun fell? Yelm was dead and gone to Hell, Antirius shone above
>Dara Happa, the Sun Dragon over Kralorela (?), Elmal over
>Kerofinela, Somash over Teshnos, Kargzant over the Pentan reaches,
>Yelmalio within the elf forests, Yamsur within Genert's Garden.
Despite the multiplicity of "sun deities" you mention,
Glorantha has only ONE sun, Joerg. God Learners or no God Learners,
that point's hard to argue. The Sun that was up in the sky fell to
Earth. The Sun Dragon was a solar substitute -- the Kralori know that
Yelm was killed. Yelmalio was never the Sun, just a "spark" god. And
Splendid Yamsur is another "spark" god.
The sun that fell to the Earth was the only one that was in
the sky. However, the Six Legged Empire (remember, descendants of the
God Learners) said that it wasn't _really_ the sun that fell from the
sky. Because they bought into the Monomyth, their claim was that the
Sun had already fallen from the sky when Chaos entered the world, and
that when the sky bowl tipped up and caught the Artmali empire on
fire, it was just a bunch of Aether and stuff pouring off the top of
the universe.
>> Even the water caught on fire in that disaster.
>Tanian's birth? The Artmali are grandchildren of Lorion...
Probably. If someone wants to resurrect the Forbidden God's
worship, all you gotta do is head to the Sea of Fire and bring some
back with you. *gulp* Of course, you have to cross the Enmal
Mountains first, which are just south of the Nargan Desert (north of
the Boiling Swamps).
>What about Rahmuktara south of the Sea of Worms?
What are you talking about? Where can I read about
Rahmuktara? Until I get further info, could be. Almost anything could
be south of the Sea of Worms. Who would go there? A wooden ship finds
it impassable -- spend too much time in that sea, and your hull is
riddled with shipworms to the point that the vessel literally falls
apart around your ears. (This happened on Earth, too.)
The Jrusteli conquest of the "Artmali Empire" must have been a
reference to a conquest of either the Veldang society that had formed
in Fonrit after the first Empire was destroyed, or it could possibly
be talking about the Six-Legged Empire's conquest of the interior
Doraddi society, which could have been confused with the Artmali,
seeing as it's in the same area and all.
The monomyth suffers severely when you try to fit the Doraddi
beliefs into it. I mean, just consider: Qualyorni the troll god comes
and cripples Artmal BEFORE the sun falls from the sky. The Origin of
People completely contradicts Grandfather Mortal's story. Eurmal the
trickster is believed to be the Creator of the world and most life.
It's all screwed up. No wonder the branch of the God Learners that
conquered the Doraddi had to become a whole separate organization
from the Jrusteli to keep things straight.
>why does the [Lunar] empire ignore Ralios?
What the hell can they do about it? They can't get troops
into Ralios. It's hard even to send individuals -- you got to either
go through Dorastor, a non-trivial project, or go the loooong way
around by sea and then walk overland through Tanisor and Safelster.
I suspect that events in the uplands of Ralios are not even
rumors in Glamour.
Now, obviously the Lunar Empire is aware that Orlanth is
worshiped in Ralios and Wenelia, so why does the fall of Whitewall
signify the destruction of Orlanth as a power?
My answer is twofold: First, it's possible that Orlanth won't
have fallen everywhere and the Empire knows this -- but he'll be gone
from Peloria and neighboring areas.
Second, and I view this as more likely -- Whitewall, Sartar,
and Heortland (until you, Joerg took it all over with Aeolians) are
the Most Advanced Orlanthi in the world. The Ralian and Wenelian
Orlanthi are exceedingly crude and primitive compared to them. They
don't have cities, they don't have walled towns. They're barbarians,
through and through. We're talking unwashed Germanic hordes, here. ;)
The destruction of Orlanthi's "head", his most competent. fierce, and
well-organized practitioners, could mean the end of the God, at least
if the Lunar plans work out.
>Why not leave Illusion with Dormal
Dormal? You clearly mean someone else, here. If you meant
Donandar, instead, we didn't think that Donandar was an important
enough deity to deserve an Origin. If you want to attack us on the
basis of inconsistency, since instead we made up a god out of whole
cloth, mea maxima culpa.
Chris Pound sez:
>Skyrealms of Jorune
THAT'S the one. I was going to ponder about that one until
someone saved me. Thanks, Chris.
Devin, stating that an afterlife can be "proven", says:
> a spirit can be contacted and spoken to with the right magics? This
>when Ancestor worshippers commune with and interact with the dead
>all of the time? This when the Stormbulls can see the Eternal Battle
>with their own eyes. This when Humakti, Zorak Zorani, et al can bind
>the dead into ghosts?
Now, now, Devin. To respond to all these questions in a row.
First, a spirit that's gone to its afterlife can't be contacted or
spoken too, just a ghost. Ancestor worshipers worship ghosts. The
Eternal Battle is not an afterlife place -- it's a pre-life place, if
anything. You can't contact your dad there. Humakti, Zorak Zorani,
etc. can make ghosts, yets.
But a Ghost does not an afterlife make. What about heaven?
What about hell? Even Earth has folks who believe in ghosts and don't
believe in heaven or hell. A ghost's existence is far from being
necessarily interesting and desirable. Even the Ancestor Worshiper's
ghosts are in constant dependence on their followers to maintain
their existence.
AND, more importantly, most dead people don't become ghosts.
There's certainly no guarantee that YOU will. (Unless you're an
Ancestor Worshiper, with a cult structure set up specifically to do
this for you.) In other words, when you die, mostly you become
unattainable to normal human techniques, or even magic ones. The
Ancestor Worshipers, fearing oblivion, have learned how to turn
_everyone_ into ghosts, so having at least that pale substitute for
an afterlife made certainty. If you're an Orlanthi or Yelmite, you
got no guarantees.
>If I worship Ragnalar, I am good if a rape people. So there is
>really no such thing as a Bad God.
Bunk. Ask anyone in Glorantha. They'll tell you specifically
and at great length just who the Bad Gods are. The Bad Gods might
vary from person to person, but this doesn't mean there aren't Bad
Gods, just that they vary. The fact that you can be Bad according to
your own culture's mores implies that you need not follow your
culture's ethical standards to get magic. So why bother?
>in a world where everyone else has magic, someone not attached to a
>god will have a rough time of things. Therefore, I don't picture
>Atheists and Agnostics doing too well in Glorantha's Theistic areas.
They don't get to be priests too often, I agree (unless they
mask their lack of belief), but they can get all the spirit magic
they want, and that's certainly enough for everyday activity. The God
won't deny spirit magic to any initiate, if only because the priest
doesn't check every single initiate to see if he's "worthy" for that
Healing 2, if he can pay for it that is. 95% of MY characters only
have spirit magic, and they get around okay.
Note for all: A number of perfectly standard, conventional Heroquests
occur during what is technically Time. For instance, Yelmalio greets
the Sun upon his Rise. This happens on Day One of Time.
Graeme Lindsell sez:
>Or should I start ignoring all those introductory parts of the
>Glorantha:Genertela pack that talk about how young all the
>Gloranthan cultures are, and how many modern concepts should not be
>applied to them?
I quote: "Don't make the mistake of assuming that
[Gloranthan] societies are less sophisticated or complex than our own
modern, technological societies." To continue, "We hope you will ...
not oversimplify Gloranthan societies by imposing Earthly points of
view."
In any case, I'm willing to admit that the Lunars don't have
printing presses. They have some sort of mass creation of written
forms, though. Perhaps a spirit spell that they manipulate through
Lunar Magic: "Duplicate Text".
> Goodwife, Healer, Enchantress and Lady, (for the Malkioni women)
Sold. Adopted in my campaign. With the tiny cavil that,
because it's more fun for players, it _is_ possible for an occasional
woman to become an armed knight and go into battle. They may have to
join a special Order or something.
> My proposal: The Rokari Church officially says there's only one
>female class, but in practice a women inherits the class of her
>parents.
Agreed. I also think the woman is supposed to do certain
tasks differently, depending on her nominal class.
Mark S.
>>Loskalm is the one major power not ruled by some god emperor.
Graeme L.
> Esrolia is no great military power but has a large population. It
>seems to be ruled by an oligarchy of noblewomen, and to have
>"normal" politics as well. Seshnela's king is no god-emperor either,
>unless he's the god of obesity.
Ditto for the Kresh Empire. At least, they don't have a God
Emperor (their ruler is unknown to outsiders -- I'll share my own
belief at some later date). I wonder if the Elf Kingdoms count as
having a god-emperor. They each have a High Council.
Gonn Orta = Genert
While Gonn Orta is obviously _not_ Genert himself (for one
thing, if Gonn Orta is Genert, who's the giant corpse in the middle
of the Krjalki Bog?), I concur with the likelihood of his being a
Fragment of Genert. Maybe he's Genert's conscience or something. The
similarities of names _can't_ be coincidence, knowing how Greg's mind
works.
>Try this example: some peasants who were part of the entourage of a
>diplomat return to Loskalm, and then go to the local Lord and say
">We would like to worship the Great Green Mother Ernalda, who is the
>source of all the worlds food. ... We have no desire to disobey you,
>and will continue to server and worship ... the Invisible God."
> What happens to these suckers?
I foresee several possibilities.
THE LORD IS CRUEL: he kills them quickly and without fanfare,
lest others hear of their heresy.
THE LORD IS HARSH BUT FAIR: he has them imprisoned and
visited by Wizards who try to convince them of the Rightness of
Hrestol's Way. If the Wizards can't succeed in getting them to recant
(doubtless assisted by mild torture), he leaves them imprisoned
forever or he exiles them to a foreign land.
THE LORD IS JUST: he orders them to cease their false beliefs
at once. If they refuse, he exiles them.
THE LORD IS BENIGN: he forbids them to practice their vile
faith openly, to evangelize their neighbors, or to raise their
children in this false belief, though they can still believe and
practice it privately. If the heresy spreads, sterner measures will
have to be taken later on.
This may sound harsh compared to a modern society, but it's
pretty mild compared to most Gloranthan societies. The Lunars claim
to accept all religions, insomuch as they aren't Orlanth (or Storm
Bull, or anti-Lunar Invisible God, or any number of other
possibilities). However, if you complain about the government, even
if you're a good Red Moon worshipper, you're looking at some serious
personality adjustment. If you live among the Orlanthi and come home
claiming to want to worship Waha or Irrippi Ontor or some other
outside god, you bet you'll be outlawed. And the Red Moon and Orlanth
are the gods of FREEDOM! They're probably the most liberal deities
re: foreign cults in the world. Loskalm is, IMO, less liberal in this
regard (worship) than is Orlanth or the Red Moon. However, Loskalm
may be MORE liberal with regards to certain other aspects of society.
---------------------
From: vladt@interaccess.com (Kevin Rose)
Subject: Sun, Forts and Lords
Message-ID:
Date: 9 Jun 94 21:46:56 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4484
Sandy: (Artmali empire sun and Hard Disks crashes)
Maybe I'm confused here, but if the sun fell out of the sky how did it
get back there from the ocean? Particularly if the ocean is still burning?
Also, didn't you lose the Gloranthan Grimore many years ago to an HDA
crash?
Malcom:
Wood is suposed to be pretty expensive, enough so that I don't
think many semi-slaves will build with it.
A wooden stockage around the Lunar fort? Again, I thought wood was rather
expensive and hard to obtain in Prax. Expensive enough that no one in
their right mind would spend four years building a fortress and put up
flamable, expensive walls instead of stone or adobe & packed earth. Wood
is much less effective as a defensive work and, in Prax, is neither
cheaper nor more available than better alternatives.
The other questions/comments are in reference to the size of the fort and
garrison. Why do you have three seperate units represented? This must
cause no end of problems in command and control, as well as all sorts of
internal conficts. I can see why you would want an infantry force (local
security and enforcent) and a mobile force for patrols, but why three units,
particularly of such small size. A second problem is that the troops
described have a problem fighting the nomads. For example, only the
Antelope lancers have bows. The Silver Shields javelins are not going to
do much against a few hunded impla riders with comp bows. And the
hoplites have no missle weapons at all.
On the structure of the fortress itself, how would one get to the well
under attack? The layout of the fortress means that anyone going down
the hill to get to the well can be easily shot by nomads with bows waiting
outside the walls at the oasis level. The implied lenght of the walls
also seems sort of long for the number of troops that would be in the
fortress.
Minor quibles all, despite the length. I like the rest. Looks
interesting and fun.
David: (on the Hrestoli)
Why would there be any seperation of church and state? Isn't one of the
Wizards jobs to lead worship of the Invisible God? That would make all
the lords religious leaders by definition, if not what they do full time.
The obvious effect would be that a given lord would be, for example,
Baron and Bishop of XXXX, while the senior nobles automaticly get more
temporal and religious authority as they prove themselves. (Actually,
I would expect that in such a system only the temproral rank would be
used, as their religious authority is assumed and obvious.) But they probably let one of their wizards deal with most
religious issues/problems.
Greame: (Form/set spells for printing)
The long duration form/set spells were great. I had an NPC who made
combination fire and darkness sculptures with form/set fire and darkness.
They only lasted for a couple of years, but at least it got rid of her
lesser works. (She recast the better ones, for sutable recompense. . .)
But now sorcery is linear. . .