Bell Digest v940616p3

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Thu, 16 Jun 1994, part 3
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From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
Subject: misc
Message-ID: <01HDKUAY0GAUQWWNCI@MR.MGH.HARVARD.EDU>
Date: 15 Jun 94 11:46:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4608

          Hello everyone--
          
          - Nils, Sandy
          Thanks for the comments on the story--glad you liked it!
          
          - Sandy on the Tunnelled Hills
          
          It was great seeing something on this after hearing about it for 
          years and I for one would love to see more.  Do you have info on 
          the Plain of Stones available?
          
          - Nick (x-rq-id 4581)
          
          I like the Orlando name.  Does Orlanth Thunderous become Orlando 
          Furioso?
          
          In regards to Androgeus, I always wondered after Dorastor came 
          out if that is who Skanth and Skath are waiting for?
          
          And speaking of Androgeus, does anyone know where he/she is 
          located during the period 1615-1625? 
          
          --Harald



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From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: greenhouse; Ralian Orlanthi
Message-ID: <199406152200.AA05786@radiomail.net>
Date: 15 Jun 94 22:00:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4609

Colin Watson said
>my wife's granny used to grow grapes and peaches in Orkney
>(which is pretty far north); she used a greenhouse. I reckon a casting of
>Bless Crops might do as good.

I don't think so. Us Riskland settlers were hoping we'd get a bumper crop
thanks to having an Ernalda acolyte at our stead. The spell description
says only that you're guaranteed an average harvest. Sunripen might work
more like a greenhouse, though the spell doesn't say so. I suspect there's
a subcult of one of these deities with the Greenhouse spell.

Nick said
>BTW, as a name for "the Ralian form of Orlanth" 
>I've used "Orlando", which has several pleasant associations: berserking, 
>amorous insanity, chivalry, Ariosto, orange cats.

While the associations are fine (but cats? I slogged through the Song of
Roland and didn't see cats -- or are you talking Orlando Furioso, which I
never finished?), somehow the name bothers me. We've been told that the
Lightbringers have the same name wherever they're worshipped. Plus, almost
all Orlanth worshippers speak a Theyalan language (and can at least
recognize The Greeting).

I know linguistically your idea makes sense, however.

>The trad. Ralian form of elective confederate kingship looks significantly 
>different to the more hereditary type we see in Sartar, to my (optimistic) 
>eye. Orlanth Rex would be King of the Gods for different reasons in Ralios, 
>and far more easily ousted by dissent among his followers.

Quick, exile that man before my housecarls attack a man I've granted
hospitality to! Orlanth Rex can never be ousted. I persuaded the carls to
elect me thane because it was clear to all that Markan the Ox no longer
manifested Orlanth's virtues, the way I do. As long as I speak for Orlanth,
Orlanth speaks through me. When I grow old, Orlanth will choose another to
represent him.

Oh, you mean the king of the Delelan Confederation? It's true that a member
of the Voshfrei clan has held that position for generations. The king
always travels with the members of his clan he thinks will make the best
successor, so that everyone can get acquainted with them. It's always
easier to vote for someone you've met more than once.

I do find it hard to believe what I've heard of the "freedom-loving"
Sartarites. What would happen if a king's son was unfit to rule, the way 
Dandern Markansson is? My Speaking Companion visited a distant land where
the people raise horses and worship Yelm, and even they elected their
leaders much as we do. They lived beyond an oppressive land that worships
the Red Ball and limits rule to the sons of kings.


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From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
Subject: How to be a Hero in Ten Easy Lessons
Message-ID: <9406152151.AA25248@sonata.cc.purdue.edu>
Date: 15 Jun 94 11:51:43 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4610



I've been mulling over the whole "hero" thing, and something that's finally
hit me with the difficulty had regarding "heroes" and RuneQuest is that
the vast majority of thinking regarding how a character becomes a "hero"
or at least of "heroic" skill and/or stature has been completely wrong-headed.
This hit me when I was re-reading the Mahabbarata [sic].  I then immediately
tore through my stories on Chuculainn [sic], the Arthurian matter, my Norse
stuff, always looking for one thing:  How did the mortal heroes BECOME
heroes?  You will note that the vast majority of hero stories completely
ignore this little detail and tell of the exploits of heroes after they
already were heroes.  I came up with two, and only two methods:

The hero was "born that way" (usualy a demigod unless in a Christian story
then "fey" blood is often invoked) and evinced heroic behavior from early
childhood or from infancy.

The hero was trained by a masterful, legendary teacher--often the mythical
"best teacher in the world".


The former is true of Chuculainn, Lancelot, Gilgamesh, et al.  It makes for
very tough, macho heroes, 

The latter is true of Arjuna (and his enemies), Chuculainn (and his greatest
foe), et al.  It also makes for tough heroes, but they feel more human, 
because we can see the time when they were less heroic.  This latter method
is also MUCH better for most role-playing situations, since only permitting
characters who were "favored by the stars" to become heroic can cheese some
players off.


Anyway, why am I bringing all this up?  The reason is that RuneQuest is
supposed to be a mythic game, and the myths give us the means by which
heroes are made.  They are NOT made by going out and beating the shit out
of something.  That is what they do when they already are heroes, or are
getting some item or proof that they need to become heroes.  They are not
made into heroes by the act of combat.  They are either born heroes or they
are TRANSFORMED into heroes by specific "rites" of passage and education.
Permit me the luxury of a very loose use of "rites" to include training by
Yoda and his ilk, please.

In fact, I could see a large chunk of a campaign working along the Star Wars
model:

1:  Luke proves that he is "hero material" by being a good pilot and willing
    to learn.

2:  Luke studies under Yoda and has his new knowledge tested, the test also
    puts his own spirit on trial.

3:  Luke is now of heroic caliber and begins to take his place among the movers
    and shakers of the mythic universe.

I could see a campaign working somewhere along these possibilities, no?

It would permit characters to gain immense skill and power from "beings of
wisdom", but they must first "prove themselves worthy".  Then, when they are
full of their new power, but not truly masters, they find themselves tested
sorely--they find all they had held steady to be unstable.  If they pass this
test, then they become truly heroes.


Must get back to the lab, so I can't elaborate further.  Just some ideas.



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From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
Subject: Loskalm vs the Kingdom of War
Message-ID: <9406160119.AA06308@Sun.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 94 15:58:18 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4611

Alex writes:
>And indeed, the situation is Nothing Like the above.  
 
 Obviously I disagree.

>The Loskalmi army numbers 55,000, while there are 85,000 Warriors in the KoW.  

 The Loskalmi standing peacetime army numbers 55,000 (and we're told it's one 
of the best in Glorantha). With a population of 3 200 000, plus whatever of 
the 800 000 inhabitants of Junora are supporting them, plus whatever they can 
recruit from Sog city (who will certainly ally with Loskalm rather than the 
KoW), they could lose that army and replace it immediately (there are many 
ex-soldiers in the higher bureuacracy to act as officers). The KoW, on the 
other hand, has no reserves at all. They're going to have to recruit from 
outside. They may get these recruits, as Jonatela is overrun by the 
Aldryami.

 Of course, Sandy has now repudiated all of these figures. I'll go on them
as the only ones I've got, though.

>We don't know a lot about the organisation of the latter, 

 But we do know that Loskalm is one of the best organised nations on
Glorantha.

>but the Warlords have a similar level of technology, and make ruthless use 
>of whatever kind of magic comes to hand, certainly including sorcery, as 
>testified to by the number of Tapped natives.

 Which has the delighful effect of ruining them as recruits.

 As for magic, the Hrestoli are the guys who started the Syndics Ban, and 
are now robbing the Godplane for power.

>  I'd not snear at Zorak Zoran, Humakt, Polaris, Wachaza, Urox, and 
>Cacodemon either, to name but a few.

 But in war I'd support the homogeneous nation of militarist fanatics. In
comparison the KoW are a bunch of thugs.

 As I've said, the KoW will be nasty enemies. But in a long war, Loskalm
has all of the advantages.

--
Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au
Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra.
"I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard"
Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Schleswig-Holstein
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jun 94 02:03:19 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4612

This is not RQ, but since Sandy and Nils disussed it here, and I happen 
to live in the area in question:

1864 the Prussians and Austrians invaded the Duchy of Holstein, which 
was part of the German Empire, and the Duchy of Schleswig, which was 
part of the Danish kingdom, both of which were ruled by the Danish king.

The war was part of Bismarck's scheme to create a German state, and to 
exclude Austria from the leading role in it. As a result, Austria 
occupied Holstein, and Prussia Schleswig, which made Austria overextend 
itself.

Now back to RuneQuest.
-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Loskalmi prejudices
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jun 94 02:03:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4613

Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4576

> And indeed, the situation is Nothing Like the above.  The Loskalmi army
> numbers 55,000, while there are 85,000 Warriors in the KoW.

How did you arrive at this number of 85,000? 420,000/5?

With this percentage of warriors, no wonder they rely on loot and pillage
for subsistence.

> Absolutely.  These Weird Barbarians talk such nonsense they're pretty
> harmless; they don't know enough about the Invisible God to say something
> blasphemous about him.  Peasants don't understand a word of what they say,
> unlike those evil Jonatelan heretics we have to execute every so often when
> they blandish our good folk with their talk of honour to all men, whatever
> his place.

Honour to all men, whatever his place? This sounds more like Rokari 
doctrine to keep the serfs in their allotted places than like "let's 
suppress our pagan farmers" Jonatela.

>> I'm not sure if their opinion  
>> vis-a-vis the Rokari is the dire hatred of the Roman Catholic for the  
>> Lutheran, or the relatively mild distaste of the Greek Orthodox for  
>> the Roman Catholic. 

> Something more like the first, I think.  We're not talking about the
> odd "filoque" here or there.

I can buy this for the Rokari, but hardly for the Jonatings. Somehow I 
have the impression that the Ecclesiarch in Southpoint thinks that the 
Jonating way is the right attitude towards non-believers.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu (Rodney W. Morris)
Subject: The revival of the net.plot.book
Message-ID: <9406160157.AA10138@cabell.vcu.edu>
Date: 16 Jun 94 01:57:24 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4614

The Prince of Darkness
X-Mailer: ELM-MIME [version 1.0 PL0]

	I am reviving the Net.Plot.Book, beginning with Volume III.
If you have any ideas for plots of any kind, please drop me a line.
The idea shouldn't be too detailed.  No need for specific stats and
such, just some plot lines for GMs to grab and use in their
campaigns.  Be kind and include your RL name, and the system or
genres your plot is meant for ('misc' is a viable genre).  Chances
are you'll see your name in print, at the least.  Please include
PLOTS: in your header.  I will be posting the results of the book,
when I think it's big enough to ;) to the list as well as major rpg
ftp sites, in ascii format. 
	PLEASE only send these to me, as I'm not subscribed to many
of the lists I've sent this message to.  Thanks.

	Lucifer >:} csc3rwm@cabell.vcu.edu

	P.S. If you can contact the previous owner of these books
(or ARE that person), please drop me a line.  I'm not trying to step
on anyone's toes, I'd just like to see further issues...and, as they
say, if you want something done...

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Curved blades
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jun 94 02:51:33 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4615

Lew Jardine in X-RQ-ID: 4575

> 	I am unconvinced about the ubiquity of the scimitar in the Lunar army.
> Sure all the Officers wear them, but can you imagine close order infantry 
> using them?

The point in using curved blades for Lunar side weapons is twofold:
a) the curve of th blade resembles the sickle of the moon, and 
b) ever since Yanafal cheated curved blades are the safer way for 
Lunar warriors against sword-breaking spirits of reprisal.

I think that a) is as important as b). It also includes another quite 
fitting earth parallel for the Lunars: the Saracenes, fighting under 
the banner of the half moon, which in turn came from the Prophet's 
curved dagger stuck into a pole as a standard for battle.

The curved blade also nicely symboizes the Lunar attitude towards death: 
it's only part of the cycle/circe of existence.

Enemies say that the Luanrs are as bent (or if they are satirical, as 
straight) as their blades.

> I see expensive swords being used by cavalry and officers but 
> not by rank and file close order infantry.

I agree largely that the superior scimitar will be the tool of the 
officer, and the cavalry sabre was a well established weapon, too. But I 
see nothing to prevent the regular Lunar soldier, be he Peltast or 
Hoplite, from bearing a shorter curved blade in his belt. A weapon not 
unlike the scramaseax of the Germanic peasants, the cheaper version of a 
sword, or just a long slashing knife. For a quick reference I checked 
the Palladium book of weapons etc. Almost a third of all the daggers 
and swords shown, mainly from Islamic or south Asian origin, are suitably 
curved to pass as sickle. The Kukri of RQ3 is the perfect short sword for 
Lunar infantry, IMO.

> Spears are much cheaper and more 
> effective for close order troops.  My idea about the lunars is that they 
> are the first people in the region to combine infantry and heavy cavalry.  

I don't buy that. The Carmanians had the combination before - mounted 
knights and armed peasant troops, some of these trained to good efficiency.

The Solars combined chariots and hoplite infantry. The Pentants used 
nobility cavalry of all types and native infantry before, and to good 
effect, against the mainly infantry troops of the Second Council.

> 	Dara Happans had NO cavalry only chariots (both heavy and light).  

For the 1st Age Dara Happans I might agree. 2nd Age Dara Happa persisted 
against Pent, Carmania and the EWF for some time. If they didn't use 
cavalry against some of these, I doubt they wold have held out as long 
as they did. their land, even where protected by irrigation trenches, offers 
few geographical features to hinder invading enemies.

> Yelmalians developed horse archers (or stole the idea from the Pentans) and 
> also used to use light chariots (ref: Yamsur & the Dragon...)  Perhaps the 
> horse archers replaced the light chariots.  There is no point in the using 
> heavy cavalry in Prax or near Esrolia so perhaps they have never developed it.

Heavy horse cavalry, even though only medium compared to a Bison or Rhino 
charge, still is a potent tactical unit, and against Sables or Impalas 
is a shock force not to be underestimated. The Golden Horse people held 
their position in Prax throughout the EWF presence, and longer. Near 
Esrolia cavalry seems useful enough that Tatius the Bright detached 
the Grazeland Horse Army to Esrolia in 1622, as sufficient measure of 
control against local forces. Only when Brian led the Hendriki forces 
to Esrolia a year later these troops were defeated.

> 	On the subject of Dara Happans I believe that the Assyrians or 
> Babylonians or Homeric Greeks are a good model.  Heavy infantry armed with 
> spears supported by lighted troops with Chariots used as the mobile strike 
> force.  And also the beards are a MUST.

An Indian force with some cavalry wouldn't be out of possibility either...

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sartar is abnormal Orlanthi the nth
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jun 94 02:52:11 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4616

Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 4581

> The trad. Ralian form of elective confederate kingship looks significantly 
> different to the more hereditary type we see in Sartar, to my (optimistic) 
> eye. Orlanth Rex would be King of the Gods for different reasons in Ralios, 
> and far more easily ousted by dissent among his followers.

Sartar kingship (or rather princeship, from the "hereditary" bit I conclude 
tribal kings aren't what you mean) IMO is rather Western or even Dara Happan 
in character than Orlanthi. When the later kings of the Twin Dynasty, 
starting with Yarandros, put the right of first birth above the right of 
achievement and approvement, they took over a concept foreign to Orlanthi 
culture and society, more at home in either Dara Happa or Western society.

The post of the Prince of Sartar was hereditary from the beginning. 
Apparently it was connected to a family strain of constructive magic: 
all Sartarite kings were builders of sort (another un-Orlanthi thing to 
do: build solid roads or city walls and towers). Sartar became king 
because he was so much un-Orlanthi that he could overcome tradition and 
offer an alternative. When his successors slowly became more Orlanthi, 
they lost some of these special powers and alliances Sartar had when he 
founded Boldhome, most important the help of dwarf and dragonewt magic.

Did it occur to anyone that the founding of Boldhome might have been an 
essential preparation to the Dragonewts' Dream?

> And incur the eternal hatred of those who can't access that archive? Don't 
> do it, Sam! Post it here, where we can all read it!

I'll join this movement.

> I misspoke: Hykimi androgyny. Androgeus is, as ever, the Unnatural One. 
> (Though some Vadeli come a close second). Only the exceptionally naughty 
> Twins of Tarsh can tolerate his/her practices. (At the same time??).

A thing that bugged me: Are these twins the children of Arim and Sorana 
called from their hero-cult, or are they a new generation of royal twins 
from the Exiles?

> Graeme reiterated:

>> I don't think I'm oversimplifying the Lunars when I say they haven't
>> developed an idea (creating a new language and imposing it upon the
>> populace in order to manipulate their personalities to desired ends)
>> that has only been developed in 20th century speculative fiction.

> Check out Plato's Republic. 5th century BC: 2500 years earlier than your 
> frame of reference. I'll concur with the "speculative fiction" tag, though. 

Another, in Glorantha historical, influence of language on the way people 
thought were the early stages of the EWF, when people first learned to 
speak, then to think draconic. The Lunars _know_ that this works, they 
aren't the first to use this way. They are the first to construct such a 
language, though, which may explain the flaws in their scheme.

But then the language they work from has been influenced by illuminates 
already in the past, so they just had to collect the relevant Solar and 
Illuminate phrases and "enrich" and emphasize them in New Pelorian.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Prince caste?
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jun 94 02:52:52 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4617

Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4588

>>> But at any rate,
>>> what else would one call Hrestol, since any other caste terminology couldn't
>>> have been invented yet, his own (if any) being the earliest alternative.

>> Prince, as the Malkioni do.

> I suspect this is a Joerg "Nya!", but at any rate, I'll bite: Prince is a
> title, not a caste description.

Ok, but the title is one exclusively related to the ruler caste. I think 
that "ruler" or "lord" in Brithini is called "talar", but for the Western 
colonies we can assume a considerable change of language over the (3000?) 
generations in the pre-Dawn (after I Fought We Won, according to Uz Lore).

> Eh, or at least his revelation, and building of Malkonwal did.  I hereby
> disclaim any suggestion about when he was born, or whatever.

According to an old issue (8) of either Wyrm's Footnotes or Different Worlds, 
he was the son of the Kolating Aerlit and the sea-nymph Warera Triolina.

Now Aerlit sounds sufficiently similar to Orlanth if Gonn Orta is 
connected to Genert (*rl*t and G*n*rt). Could Aerlit be another version of 
the Orlanth-Vorlan-Worlath-Oralanatus-Lanatum-Resant-Orlando variation?

BTW, Nick: Orlando for all of Ralios seems wrong to me in light of the name 
Worlath (used elsewhere in one breath with Ehilm), but I applaud its use 
in Safelster.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de