Bell Digest v940617p1

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 17 Jun 1994, part 1
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk

X-RQ-ID: Intro

This is the RuneQuest Daily Bulletin, a mailing list on
the subjects of Avalon Hill's RPG and Greg Stafford's 
world of Glorantha.  It is sent out once per day in digest
format.

More details on the RuneQuest Daily and Digest can be found
after the last message in this digest.


---------------------

From: Argrath@aol.com
Subject: Vantaran Gagarthi
Message-ID: <9406142023.tn1200560@aol.com>
Date: 15 Jun 94 00:23:41 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4622

John Hughes says:
"Gargarth the Hunter is the tribal God" of the Yelmalian Vantaros.  Uh, have
you taken a look at the official Gagarth write-up, or the earlier bits that
describe him as destructive, anti-social, etc.?  Maybe "Gargarth" is someone
else, but the name seems a bit close to be coincidence.

Loved the festival, though.

--Martin


---------------------

From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Re: Hrestoli again
Message-ID: <199406160846.QAA03146@melomys.cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 16 Jun 94 08:48:13 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4623

Replying to Graeme Lindsell
> 
>  David Cake on Hrestoli theology:
> >Then came the prophet Hrestol - he claimed that there is a way to
> >return to the perfection of the Kingdom of Logic, by striving for personal
> >perfection, and sometimes this even leads to Immortality again (or rather,
> >skilled wizards can learn to cast the immortality spell).
> 
>  Hrestol saved the Kingdom of Logic? Don't you mean Malkion, unless you
> put the KoL at the Dawn?
> 
No, Hrestol wanted to return to the Kingdom of Logic (using the Kingdom of
Logic as a Malkioni Eden or promised land). By Hrestols time the Kingdom of
Logic was long gone, but he held it up as an ideal of how the world should 
be.

> >Because Chaos was not part of the world,
> 
> I don't think this is a universally held opinion amoung the Malkioni. Chaos
>to them may have a different meaning than to the cultures of central Genertela.
> 
I am actually using Chaos in a diferent sense to how Theyalans would use it,
I think. To most Theyalans there is a concept of non-chaotic immorality, 
a Gagarthi or particularly wicked trickster is quite immoral but non-chaotic.
I am using the term chaos in Hrestoli thought to refer to moral evil. My 
basic idea is that Wakboth is a symbolic being who represents moral failure.
My idea is that because of mans moral failure Wakboth was let in, and then 
because the world was not perfect anymore Kajabor came. I like the idea of
the Hrestoli quite clearly feeling that moral failure and chaos are different
aspects of the same thing.
	This is rather similar to how the Praxians tend to view chaos, though,
as an all-encompassing word for everything that it wrong.

> >and sometimes this even leads to Immortality again (or rather,
> >skilled wizards can learn to cast the immortality spell).
> 
>  I believe that Brithini immortality is a spell, created and maintained by
> Zzabur and the other Brithini sorcerers. Malkion was known for promising
> Solace and having children, both alien to the "No Sex Please, We're Brithini"
> outlook - I think the immortality and restrictions came after him.
>
This does not conflict with what I said! I was giving you the official cult
dogma, not rules sanctioned truth. The Hrestoli believe that to you can
become immortal by perfecting yourself to a suficient degree that you return
your body to the immortality that mankind had before the Great Darkness.
Sceptics might say that you become immortal by learning enough magic to cast
the Immortality spell. Of course, to the Hrestoli becoming that good a 
sorcerer in the officially sanctioned path means you ARE morally superiour,
and all those other immortal sorcerers (except Brithini) have taken a false
path, taking on immortality when they are not ready for it, which can only 
lead to trouble.
 
> 
>  The "productive" requirement means anyone who has a productive skill can 
> try for promotion, with productive being defined to suit those setting the
> test. Skills at farming or manufacture obviously apply: a Squire or 
> Acolythist probably can use Craft (Armouring) or Ceremony. Merchants or
> bankers without any "productive" skill as part of their work would be in
> trouble.
>
I am not sure about the down on merchants, but as for the rest we seem to
be in agreement. Anyone out there want to register dissent with this
interpretation of Brithini caste advancement?
 
>  IMO the skill requirements given in RQ3 for advancement into any position -
> Acolyte, Priest, Rune Lord or the Hrestoli classes - are less important
> than whether there is a position available to be filled. If you get the
> 10 points of Rune Magic and the skills, but there is already a local priest
> with all the acolytes he needs, tough!
> 
>  In Loskalm, this means there has to be a knightly position to be filled.
> This probably means in the huge standing army Loskalm supports (there has to
> be some reason for it). The Fronela write-up mentions that there are 
> thousands of trained but unarmoured troops available ofr local defense in 
> Loskalm - these are probably those peasants who've passed the tests to
> become a knight but haven't been able to get into the army yet to do their
> "national service". They'll still be working as peasants and not be
> entitled to advance to the priesthood until they've fought for their country
> (or sat around the capital in a guards regiment, if they have powerful or
> rich relatives).
>
Sounds very reasonable. I suspect that a great many villagershave qualified
for 'Knight' (merely by being competent farmers), and are perhaps even 
officially ordained into that caste, but do not wish to become warriors.
I suspect that qualifying for knight caste is an important prerequisite
for senior positions among the peasantry, like headman, sheriff, captain of
militia. I suspect that such folk could get some special dispensation to
pass into the priesthood if they qualified, but damn few of them are going to
become weaponmasters by just working on the farm anyway.
 
>  I suspect it might vary thoughout Loskalm - there are some areas where
> the children of Wizards and Knights go through on the nod, while in 
> others the requirements are strictly enforced.
>
Definately. A good thing for hard-line wizards to have ranting sermons about.
I would say that in most places the actual requirments are enforced though -
but I certainly do not rule out Nobles kids being automatically squires in
some places, and then having special tutors to help them through their
Horsemanship (or whatever) exams, and then weapon instructors after that.
 
> --
> Graeme Lindsell a.k.a lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au
> Research School of Chemistry, Australian National University, Canberra.
> "I was 17 miles from Greybridge before I was caught by the school leopard"
> Ripping Yarns - Tomkinson's Schooldays.
> 


---------------------

From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Curved swords
Message-ID: <9406160931.AA16494@Sun.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 94 09:33:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4624


Ref: Me, Sandy & Joerg on bent swords

	While I agree with most of Sandy's reply to my original missive I 
still disagree about the general use of scimitars by close order troops.  

Sandy makes a point about Swiss halberds being used in pike phalanxes.  
While I am no expert on these I assume that they were used to protect 
the vulnerable sides and rear and not as part of the wall of spikes to 
the front.  Also the Swiss did not use large shields.  This is the main 
reason why a slashing sword is impractical for infantry in close order 
with large shields.  Don't you think the romans would have adopted a 
long slashing weapon in Dacia when they were having their arms chopped 
off by peasants with romphia.  Basically close order infantry with large 
shields have a very restricted weapon movement which has only a small 
effect on thrusting weapons and a huge one on slashing weapons (vikings 
and saxons don't count as most of them used spears and the axe wielders 
slung their shields when using them).  

Joerg's ideas are OK but I see the Lunar hoplite's sidearm as being a 
sturdy dagger/shortsword length weapon with a curved double-edged blade.  
More similar to an arab weapon which would be used to thrust and cut 
upwards.  When held the point would curve up rather than down like a 
kukri.  

	Lewis

---------------------

From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Losklam vs. Hrestol
Message-ID: <199406161003.SAA03745@melomys.cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 16 Jun 94 10:05:08 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4625

	I think that the Kingdom of War is organised into multiple fighting
orders, wach one with its bunch of peasants. The fighting orders hate one
another, but when there is somebody else to fight (like juicy Loskalm) they
will concentrate on competition rather than combat (as the commanders of the
order are the toughest of the lot, and too smart to waste troops against the
tougher target). However they will happily betray one another if given a 
chance to do it and get away with it - or cooperate if it will work. 
	I base this idea on the basis that they must have been fighting each
other constantly before the borders opened. Besides, you have traditional
enemies lke Humakt and Zorak Zoran. 
	Actually I think of the Kingdom of War as being rather like Michael
Moorcocks Granbetan, without the masks. Some KOW orders are rather specialised
(that small order of Wachaza river dwellers), but there are many ZZ or
Humakt or sorcery using variants. For example in my KOW there is one 'standard'
Humakti group, though more death oriented than most Theyalans, the leaders
of whom are tempted towards the Lead Cross HeroQuest path (which gives them
and edge against the ZZers). There is also a Humakti group that uses sorcery
rather than spirit magic (and refer to themselves as Humcti), and also a
group who have forsaken the sacred Humakt quick death and broadened it to
include all death - they consider Mallia a sub-cult (I stole this one from
Paul Reilly). All hate each other - but not as much as they hate the ZZers,
and they would all rather attack the Loskalmi, who are weaker and richer.
Also the three Humakti sects observe duelling conventions, which means that
negotiations between them seldom break down into open warfare - which is
almost as good as being allies in the KOW.
	Cheers
		Dave Cake

---------------------

From: jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se (Jonas Schiott)
Subject: Bouncing Pains.
Message-ID: <9406161127.AA19805@vinga.hum.gu.se>
Date: 16 Jun 94 13:34:10 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4626

Someone, who is presumably on this Daily, asked for our "Growing Pains"
scenario and gave the address . But messages
there keep bouncing. Where are you? Did I get something in the address
wrong?


---------------------

From: davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au (David Cake)
Subject: Hrestol vs Kingdom of War
Message-ID: <199406161210.UAA04767@melomys.cs.uwa.oz.au>
Date: 16 Jun 94 12:11:28 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4627

         To continue on my previous badly titled message - I think that the
Loskalmi think that they are well prepared, their knights practice a lot
at tournaments and duels. And many of their knights are extremely skilled -
at individual combat. When it comes to warfare, the vast majority of them
are parade ground skilled only. A few Loskalmi leaders really know what war
is (and Sir Meriatram is one), having fought in Junora, or as mercenaries
for RiverJoin or Sog against the KOW. Most of the armies of Loskalm will
be routed by the veteran, battle hardened, ruthless KOW armies.
        The Loskalmi are in a battle to get their armies into shape before
the KOW push too far. The Kingdom of War are in a battle to keep their 
uneasy coalition together - which they will probably do easily as long as
they have disorganised opposition, and the leaders of the coalition (Lord
Death on a Horse) are strong. It could be that before Loskalm gets its
act into gear they will be shattered. But a think that they are just too
big. I think that the KOW will initially have many victories (the Order of 
the Swallow and perhaps the Sog City Horals their only serious opposition),
but eventually the Loskalm army will stop them, and then the real war will
begin, a long battle with the Kingdom of War having the better troops, the
Loskalm armies being more centrally coordinated and better equipped, and
the Kingdom of War suffering from discension in the ranks. 
	Cheers
		Dave


---------------------

From: SYS_RSH%PV0A@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com (Official Heat Sink)
Subject: Eurmal the Murderer
Message-ID: <01HDLQEHWDAQ8Y7L03@hobbes.cca.rockwell.com>
Date: 16 Jun 94 03:24:48 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4628

>But Eurmal didn't feel like being
>the God of Death (besides, he already had more runes than he knew 
>what to do with), and Humakt seemed like a good choice for carrying 
>it instead (a Young God looking for a gimmick to make a name for 
>himself). So, voila: Eurmal the Murderer.



THE STORY OF HUMAKT

Once, long before Time was measured in the ways that we understand, a 
young God of Storm, called Humakt, was walking near the Mountain of 
Orson's Well when he heard a great commotion and a scream of agony.  
He looked toward the West (whence came the noise) and saw another 
young god, Eurmal the Petomane, turn the corner and run toward him.  
Eurmal ran up to Humakt and tossed him a strange new rune.  

"Here!" said Eurmal.  "Take this, and don't ask any questions!"  He 
then disappeared into the Forest of The Bear In Hats.

Shortly thereafter, Barney Law-Enforcer, a son of Acos, rounded the 
corner and approached Humakt in a most distressing and belligerent 
manner.  

"You there!  Halt in the name of Acos!" he cried, gesturing with his 
Sacred Pastry.  "Where'd you get that there funny rune, there?"

"I cannot tell a lie," said Humakt.  "'Twas given to me by Eurmal, 
god of Zits."

"Liar!" cried Barney.  "Looks like I'm going to have to book you for 
the murder of Grampa Mortal."

"What a bum cop," muttered Humakt.

Humakt's family afterward disowned him for committing such a heinous 
deed and refused to bail him out, but he managed to raise bail by 
renting the new rune to his brother Orlanth...but that is another 
story.

Thus did Humakt become the God of Death.

And that, my children, is What Really Happened.



--Scott

---------------------

From: watson@computing-science.aberdeen.ac.uk (Colin Watson)
Subject: Re: boring gods
Message-ID: <9406161446.AA29319@pelican.csd.abdn.ac.uk>
Date: 16 Jun 94 15:46:47 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4629

Scott writes:
>Granted, the compromise really 
>cramped the gods' style, but that doesn't mean that the gods don't 
>know who their friends/worshippers/patsies are.

The gods know if you're a "good worshipper". They don't know what ulterior
motives you might have behind that worship. If you worship correctly,
performing the requisite ( >=bare minimum) cult duties they are "happy".

>I think that even if 
>a non-priest of Babeester Gor knew the appropriate rituals he still 
>wouldn't get Axe Trance.

IMO one who knows the appropriate rituals (and how to perform them) to
get Axe Trance (reusably) effectively *becomes* a priestess of Babeester Gor
regardless of how they reached that status or how they intend to use it.
Perhaps I unintentionally trivialised the process by saying you just have
to "know the rituals". I didn't mean to imply that this was easy or quick
to achieve. What I did mean was that it is quite possible for someone to
get magic from a god through worship when, deep down in their heart, they
only want it for purely selfish and personal reasons.

Gods supply magic when they're worshipped correctly; not because they like you.
Initiates know some of the secrets of worship; Priests know more of these
secrets. The easy way to learn how to worship a god is to join a cult (but
I think it is at least feasible that you could reach this status by other
means). The priests have control over who gets into the cult; it's largely
a cultural thing. Since the gods are central to the prosperity of most
cultures, most priests are likely to have their gods' best interests at heart.
Hence they (should) only recruit folks who will make fine, upstanding
initiates who are true to the cause.
However, despite the best intentions, a few rotten apples might slip through.
The Gods have very little (if any) control over this, as far as I see it.

>Admittedly, Babs may not be able to 
>personally track the desecrator down herself 

Well, if you've desecrated then you've obviously done the ritual
wrong. There are certain hoops you have to jump through; if you miss one,
well... the result may go awry.
Cynical worship is different from desecration IMHO.

> but I 
>don't believe that everything she does is merely a knee-jerk reaction 
>to a ritual.

Obviously this is where our opinions differ. :-)
The gods sacrificed their free will to save the world. On the Mundane Plane
the cults now manipulate the gods more than the gods manipulate the cults.
That is the magnitude of the Compromise.

>I think the gods are fully capable of withholding 
>spells from naughty or apostate worshippers if they wish to.

How do they judge this?
Gods get their primary knowledge of you through your worship and prayers.
My impression is that the God will be "displeased" if you are lax in your
worship or if you (stupidly) blaspheme whilst praying or such. This amounts
to "botching-up the ritual". In such cases you will have trouble getting
a response out of your God and may even suffer some sort of retribution.

Gods get secondary knowledge about you from what other worshippers
tell of you in their prayers.
This mass of information is available to the priests of the cult should
they wish to cast a Divination about you. Even if you've been rigorous
in your worship, any suspect behaviour at other times might be reported
to your god by witnesses (through prayer). I don't think the god would
necessarily act directly upon such reports; however if the priests find out
about it (through Divination) they might well respond eg. by Excommunicating
you.

Thirdly, the Gods know about it when you somehow interact directly with
them or their domain. Doing something significant in this area might require
an act of Heroic Magnitude. If you've HQed against Yelm then you're unlikely
to get any favours out of him. (Maybe something as simple as invoking a
Cloudcall would be enough to annoy him, I dunno).

But if you can keep your nose clean on these three counts (do the worship
right; don't be impious in front of witnesses; and for goodness sake don't
attack the God directly) then you can get all the magic you can afford.

There. I never said it would be easy, but it's feasible. No?

___

It's probably too late for a disclaimer now, but it's not my intention to
encourage folks to play cynical characters all the time. I simply want to
present a framework upon which GMs can make decisions about how gods, cults,
priests and initiates are likely to interact.

Enough ranting.

___
CW.

---------------------

From: fletcher@u.washington.edu (Brent Krupp)
Subject: Curved (and other) swords in *Bronze-using* Glorantha...
Message-ID: 
Date: 16 Jun 94 02:31:17 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4630


Joerg posted...
> From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
> Subject: Curved blades
> 
> > I see expensive swords being used by cavalry and officers but 
> > not by rank and file close order infantry.
> 
> I agree largely that the superior scimitar will be the tool of the 
> officer, and the cavalry sabre was a well established weapon, too. But I 
> see nothing to prevent the regular Lunar soldier, be he Peltast or 
> Hoplite, from bearing a shorter curved blade in his belt. A weapon not 
> unlike the scramaseax of the Germanic peasants, the cheaper version of a 
> sword, or just a long slashing knife. For a quick reference I checked 
> the Palladium book of weapons etc. Almost a third of all the daggers 
> and swords shown, mainly from Islamic or south Asian origin, are suitably 
> curved to pass as sickle. The Kukri of RQ3 is the perfect short sword for 
> Lunar infantry, IMO.

In worrying about whether all Lunar soldiers have a curved sword, or any 
sword, or what size the sword is, I think people are forgetting something 
about Glorantha/RQ: swords (scimitars, too) are WAY cheaper than they 
ever were in Earth's history. Gloranthan weapons are made out of bronze, 
and I've never seen anything suggesting that this bronze needs to be 
repeatedly dipped in ash and hammered in half, and flattened, etc. the 
way a bar of iron needs to be to turn it into steel. Earth swords are 
very time-consuming to make with ancient technology, and thys they were 
expensive, and were an officer's and/or nobles weapon. But in Glorantha 
swords would only be slightly more expensive than any other bronze weapon 
due to having a bit more bronze in them than an axe or mace has (for 
instance). In fact, the RQ price tables that show sowrds being similar in 
cost, can actually be believed here.

So, maybe every Lunar soldier DOES have a proper scimitar -- maybe they 
only get issued a kukri or something, but maybe it's something that the 
average soldier invests in so as to be more like the YT officers that 
inevitably have proper scimitars. This would be possible because a real 
scimitar would not be much money.

Brent Krupp (fletcher@u.washington.edu)


---------------------

From: JARDINE@RMCS.CRANFIELD.AC.UK
Subject: Gloranthan Pictures
Message-ID: <9406161741.AA02837@Sun.COM>
Date: 16 Jun 94 16:55:00 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4631


A. Heiskanen thanks for uploading your pictures to soda.
They are great.  

For the rest of you the pictures are very well rendered computer generated 
landscapes.  They are in the JPEG (.jpg) format which may cause you some 
problems as not all software supports it.  Eventually I found a shareware 
package which does so.  At this rate I will have to be sending of $40 unless 
someone out there can point me to a cheaper (preferably PD) solution.  
I am using a PC platform which might limit some of the choices.  

My favourite picture is "sola2" which is a nightscape of some snow covered 
mountains with a red moon in the sky.  There are some small figures on a path 
one of them is accompanied by a small animal.  It is too tiny to properly 
make out by I believe it to be a shadow cat.  The image could well be of 
the mountains around Boldhome.  I am interested in which software was used to 
create the pictures as the results are very impressive.  

	Lewis