From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer) To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest) Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily) Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 17 Jun 1994, part 3 Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM Content-Return: Prohibited Precedence: junk --------------------- From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham) Subject: *orla*; heroes; Vinga Message-ID: <199406170009.AA08415@radiomail.net> Date: 17 Jun 94 00:09:54 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4639 I would like Joerg's suggestion of using "Orlando" in Safelster (since they don't speak a Theyalan language), except Safalster is part of Ralios, so you'd expect "Worlath" to be used... Bryan Maloney suggests heroes are either born special or trained by special people. It's been a while since I've read Hero with a Thousand Faces, but I recall some heroes are normal folks who have the call to adventure thrust on them, and respond appropriately. This doesn't invalidate your point that heroes are not made by whomping on people. Scott Sink answered me >>Must all Orlanthi warrior women be castraters? > >No, but I'd expect castration to be somehow significant where Eurmal >is involved. Ever hear the song "Detachable Penis?" It's like a day >in the life of a trickster god.... Yes, I've heard the song (by King Missile), and I've always known the true reason for Detach Body Part (the Winnebago myth that was paraphrased here on the Daily recently). For parts of Trickster to come to mischief through his deeds is completely different than having them severed by someone else. If the latter happens mythically, a permanent change happens to the god. Grandfather Mortal's descendants die, Yelm has to spend half his life in the Underworld, Yelmalio loses fire powers, etc. Bryan Maloney, still speaking from a position of technological superiority, says >There are mail-servers for FTP, you know... Some people can't receive large mail, however. As for Vinga being able to out-insult Eurmal, that fits perfectly with his being Trickster, and her being a clever sort. I find it much more pleasing than vengeful anti-fertility acts I'd expect from Babeester Gor. --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Sun Dragon, Storm Dragon, etc. Message-ID:Date: 17 Jun 94 00:45:27 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4640 I'm still a bit unhappy about the Sun Dragon bit for Kralorela. When I hear the phrase Sun Dragon or (Diamond) Storm Dragon, I associate the Empire of Wyrms' Friends, not Kralorela. As I understood the Kralori dragons from Elder Secrets, there were three known True Dragons resident in Kralorela, the August Dragon in the city of Ting Shui (on Hum Chang), Godunya, the Emperor Dragon, and Thrunhin Da, the Dragon of the Waters. Other dragons are former emperors, and the exarchs might be regarded as yet immature dragons. The deities of Kralorela as I see them are (variants of?) the Solar and Earth deities as worshipped elsewhere. They are as draconic in nature as are the Lightbringers. People who claim to know dragons from other beings oughtn't confuse them IMO... Of course the later stage of the EWF aka Third Council identified all the major powers (dare I say Runes?) as dragons, such as the Diamond Storm Dragon Drang (or Dreng), or the Sun Dragon which is somehow tied to the Pavis Rubble. (Their dragon creation, or rather awakening, experiments as in Ormsgone Valley and all over their empire relied of the communal minds of the inhabitants, though. Did they create or summon the great elemental dragons the Carmanians were so fond of slaying?) But since the Kralori are so insisting that the EWF way could not be the right draconic way, I hesitate to make them identify deities (who are of the world) with dragons (who are originally from outside of the world). Other than in (the early stages of) the EWF, only the magically most advanced individuals get access to unmediated draconic powers in Kralorela, which means draconic speech and understanding. The whole hierarchy of mandarins and exarchs serves the multiple purposes of administration, religious care and careful initiation into draconic wisdom. Now I've prattled this much, any advanced info or guesses on the EWF around? -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner) Subject: Time and Dawning, Multiple Suns, and Ages Message-ID: Date: 17 Jun 94 00:45:50 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4641 Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4596 > Graeme Lindsell: >> Alex writes about Time: >>>On the other hand, was 0ST the "Real" start of Time? >> What is Time itself? No one seems to have a clear grasp of what it is, >> except it means "God can't pay personal visits any more". Time the deity/Power is the building block of the universe which keeps the other building blocks, sometimes equated with Runes, from clashing randomly. As much as the Void of UnCreation endangers the universe, the unchecked force of Creation from the clashing of the building blocks can disrupt the existing Universe so much that UnCreation can leak in. This has happened when the Sky gods refused the natural sequence of Creation to take place, and Primal Air had to disrupt the universe, and again when ambitious groups of individuals within Time went outside and brought back new Creation. (Once they remained within Creation and caused Time to stop, but this Osentalka incident remained unique. Arkat established the less damaging way of Creation through heroquesting _outside of time_, but could not prevent his technique from being abused, as by the God Learners who created disruptions of reality like Tanian and creations spreading the Void like the Flesh Machine Zistor by tapping Creation, or by the Red Goddess who returned with the forces of the Void which she unleashed within Creation.) >> The period >> called the Godtime seems to be causal ie there's no myths about the event >> preceeding the cause. > But that could be just timist interpretation. Sandy suggests that in > Genertela, the Sun fell, then chaos invaded, while in Pamaltela, choas > invaded, causing the sun to fall. These _could_ be two different causal > glosses on acasual, timeless, events. Call me in with the timists and causalists then. I am convinced that Moorgarki led his trolls into Pamaltela after Yelm had created hellfire (by visiting involuntarily), and before a fragment of the Sun crashed into the Nargan Sea. My reason for this is that Yelm left through the Gates of Dusk (as Granddad did, too), and not through an anonymous sea on an obscure southern continent. (What was the continent called during early Godtime, BTW? Lodrilela? Why call it after an "Earth-King" who had neither taken the rule nor proven his worth? We know that Magasta rose to prominence only when the Spike exploded, but he doesn't claim any earlier rule. Does Pamalt?) > Nor does causality as such mean that Before Time had precisely the kind > of metric time that exists later. This is a view I do subscribe to. The amount of time which lay between pre-Dawn events was more of a subjective nature. No use in counting time in years, but generations would be a fine measurement as far as I am concerned. Certain individuals (aka heroes) had the vitality and the will to last over more generations than ordinary people. Even after Death had entered the world, old age would have been as much an unconscious decision as a natural process. The real difference after the creation of Time was that time flowed for everyone in the same rhythm. >> What did happen at 0 ST was that the sun rose. > Maybe. Some myths seem to be more on the lines of getting a "different" > or "improved" sun. Or for the Dara Happans, several such, successively. Another thing most people seem to ignore is the presence of the deities in the world at the star of time. They are all there, and they instruct their peoples before retreating into the realm of myth, aren't they? At least (the elf deity) Yelmalio was, as Sandy pointed out recently. >> The rising of the Sun would appear to be one of the "Days the Magic >> Changed", but it doesn't seem to have that huge an effect on the Dara >> Happans 200+ years later. > I must admit, I was struck by their nonchalence about it. But then, they > had things like falling dynasties, starvation in the streets, and barbarian > invasions to occupy them. They must have been pretty embarrassed that the sun rose and they weren't there to greet it with the ceremonial pomp and splendor they felt it was due from them as its descendants, and so in a backward realisation they concluded that the true sun couldn't have risen before they had regained the imperial rule. On the other hand I have bought the vision of multiple suns as described in RQ-Con booklet. Aether created his "sons" Dayzatar, Yelm, Lodril and Arraz/Lux by diverting some of his substance to a new use. More objectively, he divided some parts of his substance each to be the far and aloof fire (Sky), the upper heavenly fire (the starfires shining through the lightwells aka stars), the lower heavenly fire(s) (Sun and planets), the fire inside the earth (Vulcanism) and the various surface fires, which subdivided into Yelm (as the sun is known in Dara Happa and Kralorela), Ehilm, Somash, Elmal and others. The creations of Aether imitated this process of creation: Dayzatar did the same to create Ourania (and possibly Pole Star before that), and Yelm created Metsyla and Antirius (and possibly the elven deity Yelmalio) by diverting some of his substance. Lodril and Yelm also imitated Aether's other form of procreation, aka sex. According to Theyalan myths, Aether and Ga begat Primal Air. Lodril went for this kind of procreation only, and even Yelm tried this out, and more than once, and with changing concubines. While Plentonius denies that Yelm fathered King Griffon, I think that the griffin goddess who claims just this tells the truth, only not an acceptable one to Dara Happans. The story that King Griffon is one of the parts of Yelm sound abstruse to me. Yelm begat a whole bunch of planetary deities on his wife Ernalda (whom he elevated from an obscure earth deity (if at all) to a planetary deity), first of whom was Murharzarm, the first begotten son of his marriage who "inherited" the rule of the surface world, like his first created son inherited the rule of the lower heavens. I think that the sequence of births and creations Plentonius muddles up is largely consistent and follows causality in its original form. >> Time may be entirely a God Learner concept. The GL's could have decided >> that it was too dangerous to HQ into the period after the sun rose for >> some reason (and then no doubt promptly broke that rule). > I agree that 0ST+ as Time seems like a Theyalan/God Learner stitch-up. But > clearly, only so much of what happened 0ST- can be "history", or at least > "true history"m for evident reasons. This implies that there is something > different about the Godtime, since there are (at least now) several different, > "true" myths which can be HQ'd back to. As there are within Time. How else do you explain the five Arkats? Each of them is the true one... >>> Does Time for the DHans start a few thousand years earlier? >> Do they have a concept of Time as opposed to time? To them, the withdrawal >> of the gods is due to the corruption of the earth world, isn't it? I think yes, only Plentonius chooses to delay the start of Time well into the Theyalan Time-line. > For Dayzatar, yes. And to some extent, for Yelm. But these days, you can't > even shake hands with Lodril. What gives? Note, at least, that the > Yelmic "First Era" is Timeless. The chronology for the Second Age is > fairly laughable, too. Perhaps the coming of time, and strict causality, > is a gradual (and local?) process, subject to some fudge and variation. As I said above, time measurement in the pre-Dawn is subjective at best, although causality generally was there. Neither Larnste nor Acos would have had it otherwise, nor Tylenea. And even Ratslaff would have produced a paradox only so that his authorship, i.e. himself as cause, would have been clear. >> Bronze AGE, not bronze. Or should I start ignoring all those introductory >> parts of the Glorantha:Genertela pack that talk about how young all the >> Gloranthan cultures are, and how many modern concepts should not be applied >> to them? > No, but you should take "Bronze Age" with a tablespoon of NaCl. Culturally > and otherwise, most of Glorantha is Iron Age+. Depends on where you go. One of the technically "most below Iron Age" cultures is simultaneously one of the oldest and possibly most sophisticated, the Doraddi or Agimori culture of Jolar and Prax. The Hsunchen cultures are late Stone Age at their best (the Rathori), with crafters working traded metal, but not able to produce it themselves. The situation is similar for iron: the only humans who may have mastered the art of refining iron ore to iron metal might be the Third Eye Blue smiths, but I think even they rely upon the dwarves to refine the ore. The mere presence of coins makes the statement "bronze age" in the Real Earth history sense extremely doubtful. The technically most advanced cultures, the Mostali and the Zistori, did not exceed the 100-year war technology (for the Mostali) or the Pythagoraean tech level (for the Zistori). Leonardo the Scientist of God Forgot is as much the Archimedes of the Antique as he is Renaissance Da Vinci. -- -- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de --------------------- From: habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Hal Bowman) Subject: Neophyte Questions Message-ID: Date: 17 Jun 94 01:39:02 GMT X-RQ-ID: 4642 Greetings! After receiving much encouragement, I have decided to ask the first set of my questions. Please let me know which, if any, of the sources you cite if you answer one (or more!) of them. 1. Is there a good write - up of the white moon cult? There are references to a vision, a prophecy, and to 'worshippers', the latter from Dorastor's Illumination chapter. Is there information about the cult itself? If so, where? I'd even appreciate a thumbnail sketch, if someone wouldn't mind, on a back channel. 2. Is there a description about what sorts of things one does to Heroquest? There are lots of references to HQ'ing in published materials, but if a player asked what it involved, I couldn't tell him or her (not even vaguely). 3. Is there a description of how one goes about 'binding a spirit'? If so, where? Thanks for all the help! Hal Bowman habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu ---------------------