Bell Digest v940617p3

From: RuneQuest-Request@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RQ Digest Maintainer)
To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (Daily automated RQ-Digest)
Reply-To: RuneQuest@Glorantha.Holland.Sun.COM (RuneQuest Daily)
Subject: RuneQuest Daily, Fri, 17 Jun 1994, part 3
Sender: Henk.Langeveld@Holland.Sun.COM
Content-Return: Prohibited
Precedence: junk


---------------------

From: ddunham@radiomail.net (David Dunham)
Subject: *orla*; heroes; Vinga
Message-ID: <199406170009.AA08415@radiomail.net>
Date: 17 Jun 94 00:09:54 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4639

I would like Joerg's suggestion of using "Orlando" in Safelster (since they
don't speak a Theyalan language), except Safalster is part of Ralios, so
you'd expect "Worlath" to be used...

Bryan Maloney suggests heroes are either born special or trained by special
people. It's been a while since I've read Hero with a Thousand Faces, but I
recall some heroes are normal folks who have the call to adventure thrust
on them, and respond appropriately. This doesn't invalidate your point that
heroes are not made by whomping on people.

Scott Sink answered me
>>Must all Orlanthi warrior women be castraters?
>
>No, but I'd expect castration to be somehow significant where Eurmal 
>is involved.  Ever hear the song "Detachable Penis?"  It's like a day 
>in the life of a trickster god....

Yes, I've heard the song (by King Missile), and I've always known the true
reason for Detach Body Part (the Winnebago myth that was paraphrased here
on the Daily recently). For parts of Trickster to come to mischief through
his deeds is completely different than having them severed by someone else.
If the latter happens mythically, a permanent change happens to the god.
Grandfather Mortal's descendants die, Yelm has to spend half his life in
the Underworld, Yelmalio loses fire powers, etc.

Bryan Maloney, still speaking from a position of technological superiority, says
>There are mail-servers for FTP, you know...

Some people can't receive large mail, however.

As for Vinga being able to out-insult Eurmal, that fits perfectly with his
being Trickster, and her being a clever sort. I find it much more pleasing
than vengeful anti-fertility acts I'd expect from Babeester Gor.


---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Sun Dragon, Storm Dragon, etc.
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Jun 94 00:45:27 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4640

I'm still a bit unhappy about the Sun Dragon bit for Kralorela. When I 
hear the phrase Sun Dragon or (Diamond) Storm Dragon, I associate the 
Empire of Wyrms' Friends, not Kralorela.

As I understood the Kralori dragons from Elder Secrets, there were 
three known True Dragons resident in Kralorela, the August Dragon in 
the city of Ting Shui (on Hum Chang), Godunya, the Emperor Dragon, and 
Thrunhin Da, the Dragon of the Waters. Other dragons are former 
emperors, and the exarchs might be regarded as yet immature dragons.

The deities of Kralorela as I see them are (variants of?) the Solar and 
Earth deities as worshipped elsewhere. They are as draconic in nature 
as are the Lightbringers. People who claim to know dragons from other 
beings oughtn't confuse them IMO...

Of course the later stage of the EWF aka Third Council identified all 
the major powers (dare I say Runes?) as dragons, such as the Diamond 
Storm Dragon Drang (or Dreng), or the Sun Dragon which is somehow tied 
to the Pavis Rubble. (Their dragon creation, or rather awakening, 
experiments as in Ormsgone Valley and all over their empire relied of 
the communal minds of the inhabitants, though. Did they create or 
summon the great elemental dragons the Carmanians were so fond of 
slaying?) But since the Kralori are so insisting that the EWF way could 
not be the right draconic way, I hesitate to make them identify deities 
(who are of the world) with dragons (who are originally from outside of 
the world).

Other than in (the early stages of) the EWF, only the magically most 
advanced individuals get access to unmediated draconic powers in 
Kralorela, which means draconic speech and understanding. The whole 
hierarchy of mandarins and exarchs serves the multiple purposes of 
administration, religious care and careful initiation into draconic 
wisdom.


Now I've prattled this much, any advanced info or guesses on the EWF 
around?

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
Subject: Time and Dawning, Multiple Suns, and Ages
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Jun 94 00:45:50 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4641

Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 4596

> Graeme Lindsell:
>> Alex writes about Time:
>>>On the other hand, was 0ST the "Real" start of Time?

>>  What is Time itself? No one seems to have a clear grasp of what it is,
>> except it means "God can't pay personal visits any more".

Time the deity/Power is the building block of the universe which keeps 
the other building blocks, sometimes equated with Runes, from clashing 
randomly. As much as the Void of UnCreation endangers the universe, the 
unchecked force of Creation from the clashing of the building blocks 
can disrupt the existing Universe so much that UnCreation can leak in.

This has happened when the Sky gods refused the natural sequence of 
Creation to take place, and Primal Air had to disrupt the universe, and 
again when ambitious groups of individuals within Time went outside and 
brought back new Creation. (Once they remained within Creation and 
caused Time to stop, but this Osentalka incident remained unique. Arkat 
established the less damaging way of Creation through heroquesting 
_outside of time_, but could not prevent his technique from being 
abused, as by the God Learners who created disruptions of reality like 
Tanian and creations spreading the Void like the Flesh Machine Zistor 
by tapping Creation, or by the Red Goddess who returned with the forces 
of the Void which she unleashed within Creation.)

>> The period
>> called the Godtime seems to be causal ie there's no myths about the event
>> preceeding the cause. 

> But that could be just timist interpretation.  Sandy suggests that in
> Genertela, the Sun fell, then chaos invaded, while in Pamaltela, choas
> invaded, causing the sun to fall.  These _could_ be two different causal
> glosses on acasual, timeless, events.

Call me in with the timists and causalists then. I am convinced that 
Moorgarki led his trolls into Pamaltela after Yelm had created hellfire 
(by visiting involuntarily), and before a fragment of the Sun crashed 
into the Nargan Sea. My reason for this is that Yelm left through the 
Gates of Dusk (as Granddad did, too), and not through an anonymous sea 
on an obscure southern continent. (What was the continent called during 
early Godtime, BTW? Lodrilela? Why call it after an "Earth-King" who 
had neither taken the rule nor proven his worth? We know that Magasta 
rose to prominence only when the Spike exploded, but he doesn't claim 
any earlier rule. Does Pamalt?)

> Nor does causality as such mean that Before Time had precisely the kind
> of metric time that exists later.

This is a view I do subscribe to. The amount of time which lay between 
pre-Dawn events was more of a subjective nature. No use in counting 
time in years, but generations would be a fine measurement as far as I 
am concerned. Certain individuals (aka heroes) had the vitality and the 
will to last over more generations than ordinary people. Even after 
Death had entered the world, old age would have been as much an 
unconscious decision as a natural process.

The real difference after the creation of Time was that time flowed for 
everyone in the same rhythm.

>>  What did happen at 0 ST was that the sun rose.

> Maybe.  Some myths seem to be more on the lines of getting a "different"
> or "improved" sun.  Or for the Dara Happans, several such, successively.

Another thing most people seem to ignore is the presence of the deities 
in the world at the star of time. They are all there, and they instruct 
their peoples before retreating into the realm of myth, aren't they?

At least (the elf deity) Yelmalio was, as Sandy pointed out recently.

>>  The rising of the Sun would appear to be one of the "Days the Magic
>> Changed", but it doesn't seem to have that huge an effect on the Dara
>> Happans 200+ years later.

> I must admit, I was struck by their nonchalence about it.  But then, they
> had things like falling dynasties, starvation in the streets, and barbarian
> invasions to occupy them.

They must have been pretty embarrassed that the sun rose and they 
weren't there to greet it with the ceremonial pomp and splendor they 
felt it was due from them as its descendants, and so in a backward 
realisation they concluded that the true sun couldn't have risen before 
they had regained the imperial rule.

On the other hand I have bought the vision of multiple suns as 
described in RQ-Con booklet. Aether created his "sons" Dayzatar, Yelm, 
Lodril and Arraz/Lux by diverting some of his substance to a new use. 
More objectively, he divided some parts of his substance each to be the 
far and aloof fire (Sky), the upper heavenly fire (the starfires 
shining through the lightwells aka stars), the lower heavenly fire(s) 
(Sun and planets), the fire inside the earth (Vulcanism) and the 
various surface fires, which subdivided into Yelm (as the sun is known 
in Dara Happa and Kralorela), Ehilm, Somash, Elmal and others.

The creations of Aether imitated this process of creation:
Dayzatar did the same to create Ourania (and possibly Pole Star before 
that), and Yelm created Metsyla and Antirius (and possibly the elven 
deity Yelmalio) by diverting some of his substance.

Lodril and Yelm also imitated Aether's other form of procreation, aka 
sex. According to Theyalan myths, Aether and Ga begat Primal Air. 
Lodril went for this kind of procreation only, and even Yelm tried this 
out, and more than once, and with changing concubines. While Plentonius 
denies that Yelm fathered King Griffon, I think that the griffin 
goddess who claims just this tells the truth, only not an acceptable 
one to Dara Happans. The story that King Griffon is one of the parts of 
Yelm sound abstruse to me.
Yelm begat a whole bunch of planetary deities on his wife Ernalda (whom 
he elevated from an obscure earth deity (if at all) to a planetary 
deity), first of whom was Murharzarm, the first begotten son of his 
marriage who "inherited" the rule of the surface world, like his first 
created son inherited the rule of the lower heavens. I think that the 
sequence of births and creations Plentonius muddles up is largely 
consistent and follows causality in its original form.

>>  Time may be entirely a God Learner concept. The GL's could have decided
>> that it was too dangerous to HQ into the period after the sun rose for
>> some reason (and then no doubt promptly broke that rule).

> I agree that 0ST+ as Time seems like a Theyalan/God Learner stitch-up.  But
> clearly, only so much of what happened 0ST- can be "history", or at least
> "true history"m for evident reasons.  This implies that there is something
> different about the Godtime, since there are (at least now) several different,
> "true" myths which can be HQ'd back to.

As there are within Time. How else do you explain the five Arkats? Each 
of them is the true one...

>>> Does Time for the DHans start a few thousand years earlier?

>>  Do they have a concept of Time as opposed to time? To them, the withdrawal
>> of the gods is due to the corruption of the earth world, isn't it?

I think yes, only Plentonius chooses to delay the start of Time well 
into the Theyalan Time-line.

> For Dayzatar, yes.  And to some extent, for Yelm.  But these days, you can't
> even shake hands with Lodril.  What gives?  Note, at least, that the
> Yelmic "First Era" is Timeless.  The chronology for the Second Age is
> fairly laughable, too.  Perhaps the coming of time, and strict causality,
> is a gradual (and local?) process, subject to some fudge and variation.

As I said above, time measurement in the pre-Dawn is subjective at 
best, although causality generally was there. Neither Larnste nor Acos 
would have had it otherwise, nor Tylenea. And even Ratslaff would have 
produced a paradox only so that his authorship, i.e. himself as cause, 
would have been clear.

>> Bronze AGE, not bronze. Or should I start ignoring all those introductory
>> parts of the Glorantha:Genertela pack that talk about how young all the
>> Gloranthan cultures are, and how many modern concepts should not be applied
>> to them?

> No, but you should take "Bronze Age" with a tablespoon of NaCl.  Culturally
> and otherwise, most of Glorantha is Iron Age+.

Depends on where you go. One of the technically "most below Iron Age" 
cultures is simultaneously one of the oldest and possibly most 
sophisticated, the Doraddi or Agimori culture of Jolar and Prax. The 
Hsunchen cultures are late Stone Age at their best (the Rathori), with 
crafters working traded metal, but not able to produce it themselves.

The situation is similar for iron: the only humans who may have 
mastered the art of refining iron ore to iron metal might be the Third 
Eye Blue smiths, but I think even they rely upon the dwarves to refine 
the ore.

The mere presence of coins makes the statement "bronze age" in the Real 
Earth history sense extremely doubtful.

The technically most advanced cultures, the Mostali and the Zistori, 
did not exceed the 100-year war technology (for the Mostali) or the 
Pythagoraean tech level (for the Zistori). Leonardo the Scientist of 
God Forgot is as much the Archimedes of the Antique as he is 
Renaissance Da Vinci.

-- 
--  Joerg Baumgartner   joe@sartar.toppoint.de

---------------------

From: habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Hal Bowman)
Subject: Neophyte Questions
Message-ID: 
Date: 17 Jun 94 01:39:02 GMT
X-RQ-ID: 4642

Greetings!

After receiving much encouragement, I have decided to ask the first set
of my questions.  Please let me know which, if any, of the sources you 
cite if you answer one (or more!) of them.

1.  Is there a good write - up of the white moon cult?  There are 
	references to a vision, a prophecy, and to 'worshippers', 
	the latter from Dorastor's Illumination chapter.  Is there
	information about the cult itself?  If so, where?  I'd even
	appreciate a thumbnail sketch, if someone wouldn't mind,
	on a back channel.

2.  Is there a description about what sorts of things one does to 
	Heroquest?  There are lots of references to HQ'ing in 
	published materials, but if a player asked what it involved,
	I couldn't tell him or her (not even vaguely).

3.  Is there a description of how one goes about 'binding a spirit'?
	If so, where?

Thanks for all the help!

Hal Bowman  habowman@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu


---------------------